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2012 Hall of Fame ballot


JayJaxon

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I want to play a little game with the baseball fans here at CCSLC.

Every year the BBWAA votes on the baseball Hall of Famers and every year there are always debates on who should be in and who shouldn't. I want to start something this year where members of this message board can submit their own ballot. The rules are the same as the real voters, you can vote for up to 10 candidates . You can only vote for guys that are eligible for the HOF in 2012.

Feel free to discuss the selections voters make but keep in mind that this isn't a thread for members to be bashed by others on who they did and did not vote for. This is meant to be an engaging discussion on who we believe belongs and why. I will try to explain my choices as best I can and I encourage other members to post their ballots. I hope you guys have fun with this. I am interested in seeing what other members think.

So here is my ballot:

Barry Larkin- 12 All-Star teams, 3 Gold Gloves, 9 Silver Sluggers, an MVP award, and a partridge in a pear tree. He was head and shoulders above any shortstop that played in his era.

Tim Raines- In my opinion he is only second to Henderson as a leadoff man. If you are only behind the greatest leadoff man of all time, you deserve to get in.

Lee Smith-He played for a lot of teams and accumulated 478 saves in his career. Now that we have 2 guys with 600+ saves that doesn't look like much. But the 7-time All-Star and 3-time Rolaids Relief Man of the Year is better than relievers that are already in.

Jeff Bagwell-The only first basemen in MLB history to have 400 Homers and 200 steals. Accolades include a ROY award, MVP, gold glove, 4 All Star Appearances, 3 Silver Sluggers, and he batted .297 for his career. Plus for those who care, he has never EVER been suspected of steroid use. Not named on the Mitchell Report, never mentioned by anyone as a user.

Dale Murphy- other than Roger Maris, the only 2-time MVP not in the hall. He is hurt by the last 3 years of his career where he didn't play very well. But in the 80's he either led, tied, or finished right behind Mike Schmidt in the important offensive categories. All of those MVP awards, All-Star appearances, and gold gloves should count for something too.

Edgar Martinez-The DH isn't going anywhere and the hall would be setting the bar pretty high for future candidates with the election of Martinez.

Fred McGriff- His best years were before the steroid era and he still managed several 30-HR seasons with a career total that was 7 short of 500. His career numbers are better than some guys who are already in.

Jack Morris- the 3.90 career ERA will throw voters off but he won more games than anyone in the 80's, had 14 opening day starts, and cemented his legacy as the MVP of arguably the greatest World Series ever played.

Alan Trammell-He had 6 All-Star selections, 4 Gold Gloves, and 3 Silver Sluggers. He is borderline in my opinion. But he is very comparable to Larkin. The big difference is that in Larkin's era there was no competition. Trammell was sharing the spotlight with Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken. I think he is underrated and I have room on my ballot for him.

THE GUYS I LEFT OFF:

Mark McGwire & Rafael Palmeiro- I'm not ready to vote for these guys yet. The other dilemma is trying to figure out if they would have HOF numbers without the 'help'. Mark McGwire would be a clear no in this case. This will make the 2013 ballot very interesting.

Bernie Williams- I'm not sure yet how much weight playoff performance should factor into the vote. Williams played in almost a full season worth of playoff games. Other players didn't get the same opportunities that he did. If it was just based on regular season I say no. If I include all the playoff stuff I will probably say yes. If he is on the ballot in 2013, I'll take another look.

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Barry Larkin

Fred McGriff

Lee Smith

Alan Trammel

Jack Morris

Dale Murphy

Edgar Martinez

Jeff Bagwell (if only the Sox held on to him...)

Tim Raines

Bernie Williams

Bill Mueller (being on the 2004 Red Sox would help his chances with me exponentially if I was an actual voter. Yes, I am that partisan.)

Mark McGwire (he helped the game rebound from the 1994 strike during his home run chase with Sosa, despite his steroid use)

I left off:

Javy Lopez, Ruben Sierra, Terry Mullholland, Brad Radke, Brian Jordan, Phil Nevin, Jeromy Burnitz, Juan Gonzalez, Vinny Castilla, Eric Young, Tim Salmon, Tony Womack: do these guys really scream "Hall of Famer" to you? I'd be surprised if they get one vote between them. Lopez, Gonzalez, Salmon, Radke, Nevin, Castilla and Burnitz had great runs in the middle of the steroid era. Womack, Young, Jordan and Mullholland never seemed that great.

Rafael Palmeiro: He'd get my vote for the same reason as McGwire (he helped the game rebound following the strike) if he wasn't a lying douchebag.

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It's a tough year, as there are no Tony Gwynns and Cal Ripkens. And the 'Roid thing takes mos of the fun out of it anyway.

But I am putting McGwire in on mine. If I am not mistaken, he never tested positive and anything he took (which I am sure he did) was before it became against the rules. My stance is that if no rules were broken, then it's "Baseball's" (MLB/HOF/Fans) problem that they took 'em. I know my stance is not popular, but who's to say some of the others did not use em? I am sure they could have proved helpful in keeping an insanely long games-played streak going.

The more I look at Barry Larkin, the more he's a no-brainer. Had he played in a big market, his name would ring like Jeter's.

I don't have a sense, and it is probably a voter-by-voter "gut" thing, about how key Jack Morris' 1991 World Series performance was. It was an incredible performance, and you could argue there is "fame" there. Otherwise, he's probably borderline at best. I just read something about how much better Blyleven's stats were than his and Bert barely got in. I think the game 7 performance could tip a borderline guy, but I am inclined to think that Morris' numbers (including the ERA you cite) are a bit short.

With Williams, it's a totally different postseason consideration. He did not necessarily have an "Fame" "Moments" like Morris, but he put together, as you say, a solid season's worth of postseason stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml). He performed well, but I tend to think that he sort of carried out his good (but not HOF-worthy) play in the postseason and since HOF is an individual honor, I agree that I don't want to put him in the HOF because he happened to play for a juggernaut.

Two quality players with admirable careers, but not quite HOF-worthy careers.

Oh, what the hell:

  • McGwire
  • Larkin
  • Raines
  • Jeff Bagwell
  • Dale Murphy- Had the misfortune of playing for a team that, as hard as it is to remember now, did not matter
  • Edgar Martinez-Molitor played ALOT of DH too...
  • Trammell

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The 27 candidates (with the returnees in bold and their 2011 BBWAA election percentage in parenthesis) include: Jeff Bagwell (41.7%), Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Juan Gonzalez (5.2%), Brian Jordan, Barry Larkin (62.1%), Javy Lopez, Edgar Martinez (32.9%), Don Mattingly (13.6%), Fred McGriff (17.9%), Mark McGwire (19.8%), Jack Morris (53.5%), Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Dale Murphy (12.6%), Phil Nevin, Rafael Palmeiro (11.0%), Brad Radke, Tim Raines (37.5%), Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Lee Smith (45.3%), Alan Trammell (24.3%), Larry Walker (20.3%), Bernie Williams, Tony Womack and Eric Young.
- BBHOF web site

My "votes":

Jeff Bagwell

Barry Larkin

Don Mattingly

Tim Raines

(Just because you can vote for ten doesn't necessarily mean I should) :)

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It's a tough year, as there are no Tony Gwynns and Cal Ripkens. And the 'Roid thing takes mos of the fun out of it anyway.

But I am putting McGwire in on mine. If I am not mistaken, he never tested positive and anything he took (which I am sure he did) was before it became against the rules. My stance is that if no rules were broken, then it's "Baseball's" (MLB/HOF/Fans) problem that they took 'em. I know my stance is not popular, but who's to say some of the others did not use em? I am sure they could have proved helpful in keeping an insanely long games-played streak going.

The more I look at Barry Larkin, the more he's a no-brainer. Had he played in a big market, his name would ring like Jeter's.

I don't think I am equipped to have a full ballot, but most of your choices are interesting.

I don't have a sense, and it is probably a voter-by-voter "gut" thing, about how key Jack Morris' 1991 World Series performance was. It was an incredible performance, and you could argue there is "fame" there. Otherwise, he's probably borderline at best. I just read something about how much better Blyleven's stats were than his and Bert barely got in. I think the game 7 performance could tip a borderline guy, but I am inclined to think that Morris' numbers (including the ERA you cite) are a bit short.

With Williams, it's a totally different postseason consideration. He did not necessarily have an "Fame" "Moments" like Morris, but he put together, as you say, a solid season's worth of postseason stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/willibe02.shtml). He performed well, but I tend to think that he sort of carried out his good (but not HOF-worthy) play in the postseason and since HOF is an individual honor, I agree that I don't want to put him in the HOF because he happened to play for a juggernaut.

Two quality players with admirable careers, but not quite HOF-worthy careers.

Here's a full ballot of all the first time and returning players. http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml

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I would see yes to Barry Larkin, Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell, Jack Morris, Alan Trammell, Edgar Martinez, Dale Murphy and Rafael Palmeiro.

Bernie Williams and Fred McGriff I think are close but I wouldn't say yes to. Bernie's a guy who's career I would want to take a look at and is somebody I think should be kept on the ballot. McGriff is somebody who is about as close as you can get to without actually being a HOFer.

The two guys I say flat out no to are Mark McGwire and Lee Smith. McGwire I just don't regard as a HOF talent with or without steroids. I thought of him as an extremely one dimensional player, playing the biggest offensive position in baseball. His career stats benefit a ton from the era he played in, and basically misses roughly three full seasons due to injury over what is essentially a 15 year career. Great hitter, no question about it, but the guy was very limited in everything else he did on the field.

Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst. The truly great ones Mariano, Gossage, Hoffman, Wagner, Fingers this doesn't effect. Guys like Lee Smith tend to fall back a little. I see plenty of guys like Kent Tekulve, Jesse Orosco, Sparky Lyle, Doug Jones, Roberto Hernandez, John Franco, Mike Timlin, Tug McGraw, that I think are at least just as good if not better then Lee Smith and I hear no HOF argument for any of those guys. Some like Mike Timlin I would say deservedly so, others like Kent Tekulve I think should have another look taken at them and I believe Tekulve should be in, but if I can name players that are I feel on par with another player and they get no love for their HOF argument, the player that is shouldn't be getting any either. I will say at the very least that Lee Smith would be a better choice then Bruce Sutter who was a dominant relief pitcher at his peak but wasn't on his own planet which you need to be in my book in order to be a HOFer if your career is that short.

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Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst.

I tend to agree. Without discounting the role that relievers play in the game as it's played today, I've always considered any statistic which can be accumulated with a single pitch (and a Save is one of them) is a worthless statistic.

I also look at certain offensive statistics (batting average and OPS in particular) as ones which aren't indicative of a player's capabilities. On Base Percentage and Isolated Power are moreso, at least in my opinion.

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Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst.

I tend to agree. Without discounting the role that relievers play in the game as it's played today, I've always considered any statistic which can be accumulated with a single pitch (and a Save is one of them) is a worthless statistic.

I also look at certain offensive statistics (batting average and OPS in particular) as ones which aren't indicative of a player's capabilities. On Base Percentage and Isolated Power are moreso, at least in my opinion.

I've seen average to bad relief pitchers put up big save numbers. I've yet to see a good to great hitter with a low OPS.

Its not the be all end all offensive stat some people try to make it out to be. I've heard people make some really dumb statements such as Adam Dunn is a better player then Joe Mauer simply because his OPS was a few points higher this past season (obviously this went back a few years) but I would say its the biggest indicator of how effective a player is offensively.

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I'm planning on going this year if Larkin gets in (Bagwell would be nice too, as we share the same birthday, so I've always liked him). So I'm anticipating the announcement in an hour.

I'm also hoping to get an internship with the Baseball HOF so that would make things a little easier.

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Larkin.

I watched a pretty good case for Trammell on Clubhouse Confidential. He compares very favorably to Ripken. Trammell was one of my favorite players but he's not HOF material.

If we had a Hall of Really Good Baseball players, most everyone on the list would get in. Until then, it's just Larkin. Barely.

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Jack Morris screwed again

Yeah looks like Larkin is it for this year, which continues the freeze out.

I would be all for a three player minimum induction every year. I think its gotten ridiculous with the amount of guys that are being kept out who would be shoe ins had they played 60 years ago.

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Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Yeah I do not agree at all with the stance the writers have taken against guys like Palmeiro, Sosa and McGwire.

These are the same people that helped build these guys up in the first place. I saw no attempt to try to uncover the truth of what was going on when all of these home runs were flying out of the park. One guy (Steve Wilstein) made an attempt to do so and got blasted for it. I'll also give credit to Bob Costas to a lesser extent for trying to bring the subject up at times and I saw him get shot down as well until public opinion began to turn.

The way I look at it the writers took the easy way out then by going with public opinion and lauding these guys when it was fashionable and are taking the easy way out now by refusing to defend them after public opinion turned on those players.

If you defended them then have the balls to defend them now as well. Don't try to play victim and take none of the blame as I think vast majority writers have tried to do.

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Lee Smith's support I just don't get especially all the people that voted for him and didn't vote for Kevin Brown. I've said before I throw out the save rule when evaluating relief pitchers. I look at it the same way I look at the QB rating in football. It gives you some indication of how good a player is, but its a rough estimate at best, and I would say completely made up stat at worst.

I tend to agree. Without discounting the role that relievers play in the game as it's played today, I've always considered any statistic which can be accumulated with a single pitch (and a Save is one of them) is a worthless statistic.

So you'll only consider a player's home runs if they came deep in the count? :P

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Morris will likely get in next year. The steroid kings will get passed by but I would like to see a jump, if not an induction for Bagwell. I think Piazza will come off in the 40% range.

Yeah I do not agree at all with the stance the writers have taken against guys like Palmeiro, Sosa and McGwire.

These are the same people that helped build these guys up in the first place. I saw no attempt to try to uncover the truth of what was going on when all of these home runs were flying out of the park. One guy (Steve Wilstein) made an attempt to do so and got blasted for it. I'll also give credit to Bob Costas to a lesser extent for trying to bring the subject up at times and I saw him get shot down as well until public opinion began to turn.

The way I look at it the writers took the easy way out then by going with public opinion and lauding these guys when it was fashionable and are taking the easy way out now by refusing to defend them after public opinion turned on those players.

If you defended them then have the balls to defend them now as well. Don't try to play victim and take none of the blame as I think vast majority writers have tried to do.

What can I say. Journalists are scum.

(Coming from a journalism major. Takes one to know one.)

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