CS85

Chief Wahoo Departs: Indians remove logo from brand in 2019

Recommended Posts

18 minutes ago, oldschoolvikings said:

 

And also...

 

what?

I was gonna say...

 

One reason I’m so opposed to Wahoo as a logo is because I did the “how would I like it if....?” experiment.

I can’t claim to speak for Natives and what they may deem offensive or not, but I can certainly imagine what it would be like if there were a team named “the Jews” with a Jewish version of Wahoo as the logo. 

I wouldn’t like that at all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

I understand there's still a small but vocal number of Marquette alums who are upset about the change.  But that could be because the university mishandled it from the start - losing the "Warriors" nickname when there was absolutely no reason to.  And the less said about their stupid and aborted "Marquette Gold" nickname the better.

I totally forgot about that.  That was awful.

 

If a school is going to change their name, I'd rather they keep it for another year or two and make sure to come up with one that sticks. Golden Eagles works.

 

A lot of schools have changed from names we're not pushing.  Warriors, etc.  I am OK with them doing that.  But I think St. Johns was "Redmen" and Miami (OH) was also?  No-brainers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

I understand there's still a small but vocal number of Marquette alums who are upset about the change.  But that could be because the university mishandled it from the start - losing the "Warriors" nickname when there was absolutely no reason to.  And the less said about their stupid and aborted "Marquette Gold" nickname the better.

 

The NCAA allowed Marquette to keep the Warriors nickname, so long as there was no native imagery. That’s when the powers that be jumped the gun, and announced the Gold name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the way I remember it, they had been the Golden Eagles for 10 or 15 years, then decided one day they'd just be the "Gold," shortly after Cuse because just the Orange. Then they backpedaled in the face of public opinion and went back to being the Golden Eagles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, the admiral said:

No, the way I remember it, they had been the Golden Eagles for 10 or 15 years, then decided one day they'd just be the "Gold," shortly after Cuse because just the Orange. Then they backpedaled and went back to being the Golden Eagles.

 

Gold is better than the loveable 1930s-‘40s nickname of “Golden Avalanche.” The former is stupid, while the latter fails the “will a twelve year-old laugh at this?” test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My dad is a lifelong Indians fans (and also a lifelong Reds fan. He's weird.) and he says "good riddance". He also thinks they should rename the team the "Mayflies" and is 100% serious. 

 

My stance has always been that it's better to air on the side of caution and listen to the offended parties because they feel the most when they see the logo. My opinion in the matter isn't important, though I happen to agree with them. Also :censored: like this http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/redfaceoff.jpg you really want to be on the same side with the dude in makeup? That's a weird hill to die on. 

 

I shall now address some talking points:

 

"It's not a racist logo!"

The people portrayed by the logo say it's racist. I'm going to take their word for it. 

 

"BUT MY FRIEND IS NATIVE AMERICAN AND HE LIKES THE LOGO!" slash "BUT I'M NATIVE AMERICAN AND I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE LOGO"

I'm also not offended by everything that I probably should be as a person in my position, but I am capable of empathy and I can understand why some people might take umbrage with certain issues. If people also of Native American heritage don't like the logo then he/you should try to understand why. The pain for some of not seeing the logo on a major league team pales in comparison to the pain that some Native Americans feel when they do see the logo on a major league team. You really can't go wrong when you air on the side of decency. 

 

"It's just a logo. Get over it."

You get over it. It's just a logo. Hmm. funny how that works both ways. 

 

"LOL THE FIGHTING IRISH LOGO OFFENDS ME I'M IRISH LMFAO mSMDH SJW CUCKS"

Buddy, if you can't tell the difference between someone naming something after themselves versus someone appropriating another culture (WITH A RACIST CARTOON LOGO) then you're not equipped to participate in this discussion. 

 

The reason they should've just done this 20 years ago is because by now it wouldn't be an issue. People will move on and the team will figure out a way to carve out a brand that doesn't rely on a racist cartoon. They might lose a fan or two, but it likely won't move the needle at all and will end up being a net positive in the end. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Derek said:

The NCAA allowed Marquette to keep the Warriors nickname, so long as there was no native imagery. That’s when the powers that be jumped the gun, and announced the Gold name.

 

10 minutes ago, the admiral said:

No, the way I remember it, they had been the Golden Eagles for 10 or 15 years, then decided one day they'd just be the "Gold," shortly after Cuse because just the Orange. Then they backpedaled in the face of public opinion and went back to being the Golden Eagles.

 

Indeed.  They used this logo from the 1960s through 1993:

 

nQC5L34g.jpg

 

Then they changed the name/logo to Golden Eagles:

marquette_golden_eagles.jpg

 

Then, in 2005 they announced that they were dropping "Golden Eagles" and adopting the nickname "Marquette Gold".  They were roundly mocked and ended up keeping the Golden Eagles moniker.

 

But the whole thing was bungled - the name was never the problem.  And I bet most of those now sore about the loss of the old identity would have been fine with the same old name and a new non-First Nations logo.

 

I would bet that a lot of people today don't even know that the Golden State Warriors' nickname comes from the same place.  

 

TimelineWarriors200_1.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Kaz said:

Now time for an actual cap logo 

 

I think the "C" makes a great cap logo. It just sucks as a primary logo.

 

 

19 hours ago, the admiral said:

You'll never get rid of the name "Washington Redskins," it's been around too long and means too much to too many people, particularly the guy who owns the team. Your best hope is stripping any Native imagery from the identity and fan behavior, but they'll always be named the Redskins. Just try not to think of the word "redskin" as meaning anything other than "someone who plays for Washington's NFL team," which is the way non-prescriptive English is supposed to work, anyway.

 

"Yeah, I know our team is named the 'Flaming Queerz,' but just try not to think of it as meaning anything other than 'someone who plays for my beer league baseball squad.'"

 

 

13 hours ago, BringBackTheVet said:

The C makes a 9th leg, but other than that, I'm sold.

 

The "C" forms the abdomen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Gothamite said:

 

 

Indeed.  They used this logo from the 1960s through 1993:

 

nQC5L34g.jpg

 

Then they changed the name/logo to Golden Eagles:

marquette_golden_eagles.jpg

 

Then, in 2005 they announced that they were dropping "Golden Eagles" and adopting the nickname "Marquette Gold".  They were roundly mocked and ended up keeping the Golden Eagles moniker.

 

But the whole thing was bungled - the name was never the problem.  And I bet most of those now sore about the loss of the old identity would have been fine with the same old name and a new non-First Nations logo.

They were considering going back to Warriors in 2004-05. That’s when Gold was dumped out. Everyone hated it. There was a vote between Golden Eagles and Hilltoppers. People were encouraged to write in Warriors, then it was quickly announced those votes would not count.

 

i work for the agency that did the rebrand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

"BUT MY FRIEND IS NATIVE AMERICAN AND HE LIKES THE LOGO!" slash "BUT I'M NATIVE AMERICAN AND I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE LOGO"

I'm also not offended by everything that I probably should be as a person in my position, but I am capable of empathy and I can understand why some people might take umbrage with certain issues. If people also of Native American heritage don't like the logo then he/you should try to understand why. The pain for some of not seeing the logo on a major league team pales in comparison to the pain that some Native Americans feel when they do see the logo on a major league team. You really can't go wrong when you air on the side of decency. 

 

Here's another one:

 

"But the studies show that Native Americans aren't offended by it, in fact they like it!"

 

Show them this American Psychological Association study, which says that they negatively impact the mental health of marginalized peoples. Here's a basic summary from the article.

 

Quote

Research has shown that the continued use of American Indian mascots, symbols, images and personalities has a negative effect on not only American Indian students but all students by: 

  • Undermining the educational experiences of members of all communities-especially those who have had little or no contact with indigenous peoples. The symbols, images and mascots teach non-Indian children that it's acceptable to participate in culturally abusive behavior and perpetuate inaccurate misconceptions about American Indian culture.
  • Establishes an unwelcome and often times hostile learning environment for American Indian students that affirms negative images/stereotypes that are promoted in mainstream society.

According to Stephanie Fryberg, PhD, University of Arizona, this appears to have a negative impact on the self-esteem of American Indian children, "American Indian mascots are harmful not only because they are often negative, but because they remind American Indians of the limited ways in which others see them. This in turn restricts the number of ways American Indians can see themselves."

  • Undermines the ability of American Indian Nations to portray accurate and respectful images of their culture, spirituality and traditions. Many American Indians report that they find today's typical portrayal of American Indian culture disrespectful and offensive to their spiritual beliefs.
  • Presents stereotypical images of American Indians. Such mascots are a contemporary example of prejudice by the dominant culture against racial and ethnic minority groups.
  • Is a form of discrimination against American Indian Nations that can lead to negative relations between groups.

 

That's kind of damning, I'd say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Derek said:

They were considering going back to Warriors in 2004-05. That’s when Gold was dumped out. Everyone hated it. There was a vote between Golden Eagles and Hilltoppers. People were encouraged to write in Warriors, then it was quickly announced those votes would not count.

 

i work for the agency that did the rebrand.

 

Yes - after the Gold debacle, the university held a vote with these options:

  • Blue and Gold;
  • Explorers;
  • Golden Avalanche;
  • Golden Knights;
  • Saints;
  • Spirit;
  • Voyagers;
  • Wolves; 
  • Hilltoppers; and
  • Golden Eagles.

 

Of those, Blue and Gold, Golden Avalanche, and Hilltoppers were all former nicknames used by the school (although I think Golden Avalanche only ever applied to the football team).  Hilltoppers is still used by Marquette University High School, which I'm pretty sure was founded by the university but now has no connection to it.

 

It came down to Hilltoppers and Golden Eagles, and Golden Eagles won.  Apparently that was the clear choice of then-contemporary students, while alums tried to stage a write-in for "Warriors".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, BigBubba said:

"Yeah, I know our team is named the 'Flaming Queerz,' but just try not to think of it as meaning anything other than 'someone who plays for my beer league baseball squad.'"

 

Queer, of course, being a word that went from meaning strange to being a word used as a slur against gay people to being a word used in academia for anything outside heteronormativity, because words evolve, except, of course, for "redskin," which is apparently preserved in amber as an evil filthy word that shan't pass one's precious lips. Or it just carries on as the name of a comparatively ancient sports team while being soundly discouraged in any other context, idk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, the admiral said:

Queer, of course, being a word that went from meaning strange to being a word used as a slur against people to being a word used in academia for anything outside heteronormativity, because words evolve, except, of course, for "redskin," which is apparently preserved in amber as an evil filthy word that shan't pass one's precious lips. Or it just carries on as the name of a comparatively ancient sports team while being soundly discouraged in any other context, idk.

 

That is an example of people trying to reclaim the word for themselves.  Not the same thing at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, the admiral said:

Queer, of course, being a word that went from meaning strange to being a word used as a slur against people to being a word used in academia for anything outside heteronormativity, because words evolve, except, of course, for "redskin," which is apparently preserved in amber as an evil filthy word that shan't pass one's precious lips. Or it just carries on as the name of a comparatively ancient sports team while being soundly discouraged in any other context, idk.

 

Words do evolve. But many don't. "Redskin" has only one meaning in the English language with which I am familiar -- and it refers to a racial stereotype. 

 

"Bignoses...C'mon, Steve, we're not making fun of Jews, words evolve! Don't think of it as 'Big noses', think of it as 'Bignoses'. See, different!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming in late on the Redskins talk.  Check out this Native American majority high school in Arizona:

 

http://www.hs.rmusd.net/

 

Quote

Yá’át’ééh!

Red Mesa High School is a public high school serving Navajo students in ninth through twelfth grades. Our campus is located on the Navajo reservation, and if you know just where to look, you will find us tucked away in a very remote area of northeastern Arizona, about 25 miles southwest of the Four Corners. 

At RMHS, we are proud of our ancestry; we are proud of who we are, and we are proud to be the home of the Redskins

 

Maybe there are different tiers of offensive terms.  Seems to me redskin is a pretty tame one if their own people use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

That is an example of people trying to reclaim the word for themselves.  Not the same thing at all.

No, they are related if not identical. My point is that you can read a book on queer theory, but you wouldn't call someone a queer. However we got there, we got to the point where the word has changed, which it has with Redskins. The idea of using it in any other context than the football one is ridiculous, but acting as if merely using the word will cause you or a nearby Indian to burst into flames is ridiculous, too.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, the admiral said:

No, they are related if not identical. My point is that you can read a book on queer theory, but you wouldn't call someone a queer. However we got there, we got to the point where the word has changed, which it has with Redskins. The idea of using it in any other context than the football one is ridiculous, but acting as if merely using the word will cause you or a nearby Indian to burst into flames is ridiculous, too.

 

A clear-cut straw-man if you'll ever see one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, DC in Da House w/o a Doubt said:

Seems to me redskin is a pretty tame one if their own people use it.

 

Would you say that the n-word is pretty tame if some African-Americans use it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BigBubba said:

A clear-cut straw-man if you'll ever see one.

Got me with the ol' logical fallacy identification. MOD EDIT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Would you say that the n-word is pretty tame if some African-Americans use it?

 

 

They don't use the hard "er" do they?  In what universe would a high school team name their sports team the n-words?  That universe doesn't exist.  So yeah, I would say the n-word is a much different story.  Redskin and the n-word aren't comparable*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.