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Chief Wahoo Departs: Indians remove logo from brand in 2019

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20 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Cute, but I don't buy the argument that "redskins" only refer to a player on a the Washington Redskins. Claiming it does takes a degree of wilful ignorance.

 

When we talk about Kirk Cousins and whether or not he’ll be a Redskin for much longer, we aren’t implying anything about the future of his race or ethnicity. I have never met anyone in modern society talk about Redskins unless the subject of conversation played football.

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3 minutes ago, jayjackson3 said:

 

So for the crime of having an opinion that is not in line with yours, I deserve to be personally attacked? 

 

Yes. The crime. I have notified The Cops. Expect them at your door shortly.

 

You're drawing a line from the elimination of a racist caricature from a baseball uniform to the Thought Police. Maybe sit out a couple plays and have yourself a think.

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1 minute ago, jayjackson3 said:

Just because I know people have a knack for taking things way too far, doesn't mean I think Wahoo should stay because Cleveland fans like it. 

 

And yet you are using the Slippery Slope Fallacy to decry the decision to remove a racist caricature.

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1 minute ago, WSU151 said:

 

When we talk about Kirk Cousins and whether or not he’ll be a Redskin for much longer, we aren’t implying anything about his race or ethnicity. I have never met anyone in modern society talk about Redskins unless they played football.

This is missing the point entirely. Of course when we talk about Kirk Cousins we're referring to the football team. Just like we're not implying Case Keenum is an actual medieval Norse warrior and sailor.

 

That being said? Both "Redskin" and "Viking" have meanings outside of the realm of pro football. The former is a slur, the latter is not.

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2 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

This is missing the point entirely. Of course when we talk about Kirk Cousins we're referring to the football team. Just like we're not implying Case Keenum is an actual medieval Norse warrior and sailor.

 

That being said? Both "Redskin" and "Viking" have meanings outside of the realm of pro football. The former is a slur, the latter is not.

 

But the admiral is saying the usual references to Redskins are strictly about the football team. He does have a point regarding the logic of it. 

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3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Absolutely.  It’s certainly easier when you’re named after a specific tribe, but the Indians could and should find one to partner with.  The closest one, or one with historical ties to the area.

 

Well, that was the idea with my concept. Quoting myself from last June:

 

On 6/13/2017 at 1:28 AM, SFGiants58 said:

While I initially wanted to pay tribute to tribes from Ohio, I decided (with some help from posters like @hawk36 and @Gothamite) that the best route would be to link the team to the "Indian" who played for the team and became their apocryphal namesake, Louis Sockalexis of the Maine Penobscots. The article mentioned above claimed the Penobscots' tribal council opposing Wahoo, so I'm not sure how receptive they would be to the team working with them to "refine" the brand. 

 

Honoring Louis Sockalexis in a proper fashion (as in, not with a sambo cartoon) and working with the Penobscots could be a way out of the identity jam. Of course, the Penobscots' geographic distance from Cleveland may be an issue.

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1 minute ago, WSU151 said:

 

But the admiral is saying the usual references to Redskins are strictly about the football team. He does have a point regarding the logic of it. 

I would ask a Native person if they consider the term "redskins" to just be the name Washington's football team before claiming that as a fact.

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2 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I would ask a Native person if they consider the term "redskins" to just be the name Washington's football team before claiming that as a fact.

 

They have asked Natives about the name, though, more than once. The results always seem to shock us non-Natives.

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Just now, WSU151 said:

 

They have asked Natives about the name, though, more than once.

And again, I'll circle back to my original question.

If you just met a Native person would you refer to them as a redskin? "I wouldn't because they don't play of the Washington Redskins lol" isn't a valid answer to that question.

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Sad to see Wahoo go but this was inevitable given the times we live in. Glad I was able to grab a hat a few years back.

 

Hopefully they come up with something decent and just don’t use that stupid generic C on everything. At least add a feather or something.

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I love the cursive I and it is my favorite logo from the Indians. 

But I don't think the team should employ two logos that are basically one letter. One has to be a letter and one has to be an image... One or the other, can't have both. 

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5 hours ago, the admiral said:

Next for what, removing the logo or people demanding they remove the logo? No and yes, respectively.

 

Na they still have the Redskins for now. If Snyder ever gives in or a new owner comes in for whatever reason and changes then people will move on to the Blackhawks, Braves, whoever. Even if every team with native imagery removes it people will just find the next thing to complain about.

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4 minutes ago, VikWings said:

Even if every team with native imagery removes it people will just find the next thing to complain about.

And this is where I usually scribble citation needed

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Just now, Ice_Cap said:

And this is where I usually scribble citation needed

 

People will always find something to complain about. I don’t know what it will be but they will.

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32 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Absolutely.  It’s certainly easier when you’re named after a specific tribe, but the Indians could and should find one to partner with.  The closest one, or one with historical ties to the area.

 

They could honor the Iroquois Tribes which would include the Erie people that once occupied that neck of the woods.

 

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3 hours ago, Dolphins Dynasty said:

Also, navy and red is obviously an overused color scheme and this could be an opportunity to explore something new.

Ah, yes, finally found the standard “a founding member of the American League that’s worn navy in every one of its 117 seasons and used red alongside of it for each of the last 85 years should change its colors” argument in a thread about the Indians identity!

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4 minutes ago, VikWings said:

 

People will always find something to complain about. I don’t know what it will be but they will.

That's a weak argument though.

Chief Wahoo is a racist illustration. We shouldn't try to get rid of it because of the chance someone at some point later on will try to get rid of something else? No. That's ridiculous.

 

People wanted to get rid of Chief Wahoo because he's a racist illustration. There is no slippy slope there. Just the desire to remove something racist from a relative from a prominent and visible position.

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52 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Cute, but I don't buy the argument that "redskins" only refer to a player on a the Washington Redskins. Claiming it does takes a degree of wilful ignorance.

But I think we are headed in that direction. Whereas plenty of ethnic/racial slurs still get a lot of play today, I don't think "redskin" is one of them. It's an orphan pejorative, I guess (not to be confused with a pejorative against orphans). But if people still want to play Secret Word with the Redskins, that's their right.

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1 minute ago, the admiral said:

But I think we are headed in that direction. Whereas plenty of ethnic/racial slurs still get a lot of play today, I don't think "redskin" is one of them. It's an orphan pejorative, I guess (not to be confused with a pejorative against orphans). But if people still want to play Secret Word with the Redskins, that's their right.

Maybe, but we're not there yet. And I'm not sure if we're ever going to be.

You don't see "kike" get a lot of play (outside of 4chan). It certainly hasn't been a commonplace slur for Jewish people in my lifetime.

Yet I still feel a gross, guttural reaction when I think of the word.

 

The sad fact of the matter is that slurs tend to retain their power to the group they're directed against. Maybe "redskins" will completely vanish as a term First Nations find objectionable, but I'm not willing to claim that day will come within any of our lifetimes.

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4 minutes ago, crashcarson15 said:

Ah, yes, finally found the standard “a founding member of the American League that’s worn navy in every one of its 117 seasons and used red alongside of it for each of the last 85 years should change its colors” argument in a thread about the Indians identity!

 

While I don’t believe the team should abandon navy or red (adding an accent color wouldn’t be a bad idea), I can see where the sentiment originates. People see too many teams using navy/red in the majors, and they will leap at the opportunity for any of those teams to bring in a new color scheme. Because Wahoo has been the key part of the Indians’ identity for so long, people will want to use its removal as an excuse for a dramatic rebrand/color scheme change-up. Just rocking the 1994-2001 home color balance on both the home and road (navy cap with red bill/red belt/red undershirt/red socks and shoes) should be plenty. Maybe navy undershirts, belts, or socks should phased out, to satisfy color scheme diversification.

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