B-Rich

Warriors to Keep Golden State Name Despite 2019 Move to San Francisco

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46 minutes ago, guest23 said:

 

Geography might matter a "great deal" in provincial markets where the city identity is dependent on a sports franchise. Small market teams like the Sacramento Kings, Winnipeg Jets, Jacksonville Jaguars etc. may need to be joined at the hip to sell themselves but big sports brands like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Yankees have transcended the cit limits and local media market in the digital age. I would put the Warriors in that category now

While I don’t think the Warriors will suffer any in value just because they don’t have San Francisco in the name, I think geography is inextricably tied up with those teams’ brands and identities, though. Doesn’t matter if fans aren’t constrained geographically. That’s how you get the Yankees as paragons of excellence and class, that’s how you get the Showtime Lakers...  it’s even interesting the Warriors’ ascendancy in a suddenly nerd-friendly NBA has tracked with the cultural ascendency of the Bay at large.

 

there are a few reasons the Spurs never transcended the way other dynastic teams of their era did and I do think San Antonio is one.

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This is a cool little conversation. To me, the "Washington Redskins" are so differently tied to the city than the "Washington Nationals." There are obviously a million reasons for that. Some are universally true (1937 vs. 2005, stadium location, team colors, uniqueness of (racist) nickname, etc.) and some are likely true to me (I was born in 1995, and don't really remember the pre-FedEx Field/Snyder NFL team, which to my understanding, was far more associated with the city, the "District" rather than the surrounding area, etc.)

 

I'm always shocked by how many random people think that the Washington NFL team is from Washington state. But then I think about it, and it makes sense, especially if you're tangentially learning via the Wizards, Nationals, and Capitals that DC teams are 1. red white blue 2. likely have a "dc-themed" nickname. 

 

There's also this partial-truth that DC teams lack a large, dedicated fan base because of the nature of the city as home to so many people from somewhere else. That feels, to me, like a uniquely non-Redskins phenomenon. Nobody really ever bemoans a small crowd size at an NFL game in DC because of this idea. It's always the others.

 

Anybody have any thoughts on the "Washington" teams? How you perceive them?

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17 hours ago, guest23 said:
On 12/04/2018 at 10:56 PM, andrewharrington said:

The value would probably increase if the franchise had a real live city name attached to it.

 

I disagree with that. Most brand marketers would tell you that applying geography to a name can suppress brand value and marketability especially from a global perspective. Golden State Warriors is almost a nickname unto itself. When the Raiders got into their long running spat with Oakland they basically scrubbed the city name from their merchandise which I think was a smart move as their brand is not bound to geography. I also think Moreno should market his team as The Angels but the stadium lease may still preclude him from that.

 

16 hours ago, the admiral said:

Okay, well, the brand marketers are wrong as far as North American professional sports go, because the geography matters a great deal. And can we put to rest this lie that the Raiders have nothing to do with Oakland or California?

 

14 hours ago, guest23 said:

Geography might matter a "great deal" in provincial markets where the city identity is dependent on a sports franchise. Small market teams like the Sacramento Kings, Winnipeg Jets, Jacksonville Jaguars etc. may need to be joined at the hip to sell themselves but big sports brands like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Yankees have transcended the cit limits and local media market in the digital age. I would put the Warriors in that category now

 

 

While the Yankees and the Cowboys have a national footprint, they each derive 100% of their brand image from the cities that they belong to. 

 

The Raiders are a different story.  They are a unique case, the only team whose brand image is truly untethered to any geographical location.  They could set up in Oakland, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Antonio, or any other city, and their brand would be undiminshed.  This is not true for the New York Yankees or Dallas Cowboys.

 

The Warriors' identity has become very strong over the past few years.  But they are not in the category of the Yankees and the Cowboys.  They're not even in the category of the Lakers and the Celtics, which are permanent fixtures in the consciousness of the nation.  The Warriors are in the category of the Cavaliers and the Thunder: brands which formerly meant nothing nationally but which are now at their height, and which will surely fall again when the teams' period of dominance ends.  The last-place Lakers are still the Lakers; they still occupy a spot in people's awareness.  By contrast, a last-place Warriors team would be invisible, and would be no more significant than the Nets.


And the idea that the Angels should drop all geographical references is bonkers.  They have no nationally recognised identity; their sole asset is to be tied to Los Angeles — which is why their owner wanted to exchange the name of Anaheim, a city known for one tourist attraction, for the name of Los Angeles, one of the world's greatest cities. 


 

 

 

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Has it ever occurred to you that the Raiders' image is a function of where they played?

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52 minutes ago, DeFrank said:

Anybody have any thoughts on the "Washington" teams? How you perceive them?

 

Yeah, I always thought of the Redskins as the truest team for natives of the entire DMV/southern Mid-Atlantic/whatever, because of their tenure, their success, and the fact that football brings demographics together like that. The Capitals feel like a distinctly Northern Virginia team to me, transplant-friendly but with a definite core of very proud DC-area lifers, while the Cosplay Bullets seem to skew more to the District and Maryland and get that particular NBA mix of blacks and rich white snobs. The Nationals feel like an occasion for people from other places to get together and hang out; I'm not convinced they really won over that many O's fans from points south. But that whole part of the country is still terra incognita to me until maybe this summer so I could be 0/4 here.

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1 hour ago, guest23 said:

 

Geography might matter a "great deal" in provincial markets where the city identity is dependent on a sports franchise. Small market teams like the Sacramento Kings, Winnipeg Jets, Jacksonville Jaguars etc. may need to be joined at the hip to sell themselves but big sports brands like the Cowboys, Raiders, and Yankees have transcended the cit limits and local media market in the digital age. I would put the Warriors in that category now

 

Cowboys yes - the star is a big part of that, as is the national exposure.  I don't think 99% of the non-US world knows what Dallas is, but that doesn't matter.  I'm inclined to agree with the Raiders too, but they wouldn't have gotten that way had it not been partially because of their geography.  Disagree on the Yankees.  The NEW YORK part of NEW YORK YANKEES is a big deal, and part of their success- especially internationally - is due to the NY cap, which many people just look at as a cool American thing, not even necessarily knowing anything about the Yankees.

 

The Warriors are not in that category now, nor will they ever be.  Once this success fades, so will they.  It's just how it is.

 

1 hour ago, Digby said:

there are a few reasons the Spurs never transcended the way other dynastic teams of their era did and I do think San Antonio is one.

 

It's possibly the biggest one.

 

42 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

While the Yankees and the Cowboys have a national footprint, they each derive 100% of their brand image from the cities that they belong to. 

 

The Raiders are a different story.  The are a unique case, the only team whose brand image is truly untethered to any geographical location.  They could set up in Oakland, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Antonio, or any other city, and their brand would be undiminshed.  This is not true for the New York Yankees or Dallas Cowboys.

 

The Warriors' identity has become very strong over the past few years.  But they are not in the category of the Yankees and the Cowboys.  They're not even in the category of the Lakers and the Celtics, which are permanent fixtures in the consciousness of the nation.  The Warriors are in the category of the Cavaliers and the Thunder: brands which formerly meant nothing nationally but which are now at their height, and which will surely fall again when the teams' period of dominance ends.  The last-place Lakers are still the Lakers; they still occupy a spot in people's awareness.  By contrast, a last-place Warriors team would be invisible, and would be no more significant than the Nets.


And the idea that the Angels should drop all geographical references is bonkers.  They have no nationally recognised identity; their sole asset is to be tied to Los Angeles — which is why their owner wanted to exchange the name of Anaheim, a city known for one tourist attraction, for the name of Los Angeles, one of the world's greatest cities. 

 

Good post.

 

6 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Has it ever occurred to you that the Raiders' image is a function of where they played?

 

Sure is.  If they were the Des Moines Raiders rather than LA, then they don't get as much popularity in the gangsta rap world, their stars like Bo Jackson might not get the same attention, and let's face it - "OAKLAND Raiders" just sounds cool, even if most people wouldn't know where Oakland is if it wasn't for sports.

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I mean really the Warriors could use Golden State no matter where they go in California. Maybe that’s what makes them so dynamic. They are just gonna bounce around California every once in awhile and keep the same name. It’s truly unreal smart branding. Just bringing championships to as many cities in California as possible because the LAs and Sacramento sure ain’t bringing home any banners.

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Brown1 is a poster to watch in 2018.

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6 hours ago, DeFrank said:

Anybody have any thoughts on the "Washington" teams? How you perceive them?

 

When I first started watching sports in the late 70's, I was confused why Seattle would play Washington, shouldn't they be friends (I was around 7 or 8 at the time). Someone had to explain to me that Washington had nothing to do with the state and was a separate city and I had been there before (which made it more embarrassing to me).

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6 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

Yeah, I always thought of the Redskins as the truest team for natives of the entire DMV/southern Mid-Atlantic/whatever, because of their tenure, their success, and the fact that football brings demographics together like that. The Capitals feel like a distinctly Northern Virginia team to me, transplant-friendly but with a definite core of very proud DC-area lifers, while the Cosplay Bullets seem to skew more to the District and Maryland and get that particular NBA mix of blacks and rich white snobs. The Nationals feel like an occasion for people from other places to get together and hang out; I'm not convinced they really won over that many O's fans from points south. But that whole part of the country is still terra incognita to me until maybe this summer so I could be 0/4 here.

 

I agree with most of this except the capitals thing. Not sure why but I have no association of them as Virginian more than anything else. But definitely on the mark with the NBA, NFL. Nats too on the idea that it’s an occasion for everyone, but I would say that many O’s fans have come over. Not all, but many, especially of my age. I was 10 when the Nats came in. Never an o’s fan, but many of my friend were. If you lived in DC you joined up, if you lived in true ‘Maryland (Bethesda, but not Chevy Chasr) you typically stayed with the O’s/loved the Maryland foootball pride uniforms/old bay etc

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1 hour ago, the admiral said:

Brown1 is a poster to watch in 2018.

I’m not very good looking so watch at your own risk. Dad said I had mom’s looks but I never understood that because I have two dads? It’s probably the whole test tube thing.

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35 minutes ago, DeFrank said:

I agree with most of this except the capitals thing. Not sure why but I have no association of them as Virginian more than anything else.

 

I was imagining an analogue of Chicago suburbia, where the middle-class bedrock and nouveau-riche exurbs (i.e. NoVa) have a serious Blackhawks presence, but the North Shore is thought of as decidedly Bulls territory. Also, the Chicagoiest of sports fans usually manifest their provincialism through the Blackhawks and White Sox, so I figured there was an element of that with the Caps as well.

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Golden State Warriors sounds better than San Francisco Warriors anyways.

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7 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

I was imagining an analogue of Chicago suburbia, where the middle-class bedrock and nouveau-riche exurbs (i.e. NoVa) have a serious Blackhawks presence, but the North Shore is thought of as decidedly Bulls territory. Also, the Chicagoiest of sports fans usually manifest their provincialism through the Blackhawks and White Sox, so I figured there was an element of that with the Caps as well.

 

I get that. I keep thinking of Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings in FX's "The Americans," and how they live in NoVa and they're big Caps fans because they... you know, are Soviet spies.

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9 hours ago, smzimbabwe said:

 

When I first started watching sports in the late 70's, I was confused why Seattle would play Washington, shouldn't they be friends (I was around 7 or 8 at the time). Someone had to explain to me that Washington had nothing to do with the state and was a separate city and I had been there before (which made it more embarrassing to me).

Same here, up until I was 9 or so. Though for a brief period I also thought the Blazers played in Maine. I knew little of western geography at this point, needless to say.

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20 hours ago, kroywen said:

 

This is across the street from Citi Field:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7584017,-73.8447928,3a,75y,26.49h,78.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG_BHR1SGZfHzwXcguwh1wQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Hey, they can't all have McCovey Cove beyond th outfield fence. ;)

 

I wonder if I could drop my car off for service, then just pick it up after the game.

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3 hours ago, leopard88 said:

 

I wonder if I could drop my car off for service, then just pick it up after the game.

 

Might be stripped of a few vital parts that would then be surreptitiously resold on the black market, but otherwise, sure.

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19 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

The Warriors' identity has become very strong over the past few years.  But they are not in the category of the Yankees and the Cowboys.  They're not even in the category of the Lakers and the Celtics, which are permanent fixtures in the consciousness of the nation.  The Warriors are in the category of the Cavaliers and the Thunder: brands which formerly meant nothing nationally but which are now at their height, and which will surely fall again when the teams' period of dominance ends.  The last-place Lakers are still the Lakers; they still occupy a spot in people's awareness.  By contrast, a last-place Warriors team would be invisible, and would be no more significant than the Nets.

 

Dare I say, branding themselves as an explicitly San Francisco team might help them in terms of building a national presence. The two "San Francisco" teams - the Giants and the Niners - both have a much more enduring 'national' brand than the Warriors, A's, or Sharks (the Raiders are in some weird exception-that-prove-the-rule thing with their brand, of course). No, the Giants and the Niners don't quite have the brand value of the Yankees, Dodgers, Cowboys, etc., but they're definitely seen as 'prominent' and 'historic' teams in their respective leagues, and I think much of that is derived from being explicitly from 'San Francisco.'

 

The Warriors are a charter NBA franchise with 5 championships and Wilt Chamberlain to their name, and yet they're not at all in that upper echelon of 'prestigious' NBA franchises. (And while they did relocate west, the Dodgers and Giants are both in that upper echelon of baseball franchises, as are the Lakers in the NBA, so that's not a great impediment.) Would the "San Francisco Warriors" carry the same kind of prestige that the "San Francisco Giants" and "San Francisco 49ers" do? I tend to think so. They'll never be the Lakers or the Yankees, but they could sure as hell be on the next rung down, so to speak.

 

19 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

And the idea that the Angels should drop all geographical references is bonkers.  They have no nationally recognised identity; their sole asset is to be tied to Los Angeles — which is why their owner wanted to exchange the name of Anaheim, a city known for one tourist attraction, for the name of Los Angeles, one of the world's greatest cities. 

 

You know, being the 'second fiddle' franchise in a major market doesn't really carry much prestige - I don't think anyone thinks of the Mets, Jets, White Sox, Clippers, Nets, etc., as being 'prestige franchises' (and I say that as a Jets fan) - but it sure as hell carries a lot of financial value to their owners. Those 'second-fiddle' major market franchises are usually ranked in the top 10 most valuable franchises in their respective leagues (well, at least the New York and LA ones do). And when those teams are good, they attract a ton of attention and money - more than a good team in a small city would attract. So while being the second-fiddle LA team isn't going to build up a ton of prestige, it's a hell of lot more valuable than being Orange County's quasi-team/Disneyland's side attraction.

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The Warriors had the bad timing of going into an extended lull during the sports-media/internet boom of the late '90s. Sometimes someone would say they have "surprisingly good fans" but mostly they were just that one team that lost 45 games every year.

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