2014 NCAA Football Thread

[pmoehrin]

Well, it does restore him as the winning-est coach of all-time. It's significant in that regard if you care about those things. Then again, he passed Bobby Bowden, who was no stranger to scandals himself (though obviously none as significant as what happened at Penn State).

I don't think it was ever the NCAA"s place to take wins away from Paterno in the first place. To me its one of the more silly things the NCAA does. You can't go through the record book, pick out the things you like and ignore the things you don't.

But this isn't just about the wins/loss record. Paterno has the record in my view whether the NCAA or anyone else feels he deserves to or not. Can't deny that part of his legacy, try as some people might. That's not what I care about.

What I care about is for all the uproar about bringing people to justice at Penn State and changing the culture there, ultimately in the end status quo won out. For the amount of victims Jerry Sandusky had over the length of time he was able to operate, there is no possible way he did not have a lot of help from a lot of people along the way. That's the part that's freighting. The institutions we set up to protect our children failed in the name of trying to help Penn State beat Ohio State this Saturday. Even more freighting as a society we seem to be completely incapable of doing anything about it because the forces that enable that type of behavior are just too strong to overcome.

Joe Paterno however fair or unfair has become the symbol of those forces. It is very important to remember though he is far from the only one culpable and that part of the story seemed to get lost along the way. What happened in Happy Valley could have happened anywhere in this country where sports has that much importance and still can.

[JayMac]

Well, it does restore him as the winning-est coach of all-time. It's significant in that regard if you care about those things. Then again, he passed Bobby Bowden, who was no stranger to scandals himself (though obviously none as significant as what happened at Penn State).

I don't think it was ever the NCAA"s place to take wins away from Paterno in the first place. To me its one of the more silly things the NCAA does. You can't go through the record book, pick out the things you like and ignore the things you don't.

But this isn't just about the wins/loss record. Paterno has the record in my view whether the NCAA or anyone else feels he deserves to or not. Can't deny that part of his legacy, try as some people might. That's not what I care about.

What I care about is for all the uproar about bringing people to justice at Penn State and changing the culture there, ultimately in the end status quo won out. For the amount of victims Jerry Sandusky had over the length of time he was able to operate, there is no possible way he did not have a lot of help from a lot of people along the way. That's the part that's freighting. The institutions we set up to protect our children failed in the name of trying to help Penn State beat Ohio State this Saturday. Even more freighting as a society we seem to be completely incapable of doing anything about it because the forces that enable that type of behavior are just too strong to overcome.

Joe Paterno however fair or unfair has become the symbol of those forces. It is very important to remember though he is far from the only one culpable and that part of the story seemed to get lost along the way. What happened in Happy Valley could have happened anywhere in this country where sports has that much importance and still can.

Very well said. I share a lot of the same sentiment.

[tj4eck]

He didn't cheat to get those wins, like USC.

He won them fair and square.

Give him back his wins.

[PSUcelticsWON95]

He didn't cheat to get those wins, like USC.

He won them fair and square.

Give him back his wins.

It's true. Of course I'm biased, but I'm very glad to see him have his wins back. I was actually more upset about his wins being taken away than the bowl ban. I would've been fine with a 10-year bowl ban. Was Paterno in the wrong? Of course. Were other members of the coaching staff? Of course. Were some school officials? Yes. And they were all punished. Yes, a lot of students rioted, and chaos ensued after the wins were taken away and other sanctions were enacted. But you know riots like those would've happened at almost any other school, given the circumstances. The record of the most wins isn't based on moral standards, it's based on victories. So based on that, he deserves to have all his wins. I know there is a lot of hatred towards the school, but it's not like they didn't pay the price. I, along with many other Penn State fans I have spoken to, are only focused on the present and future. Yes, people still complain about the past, but you're always going to have those people. I think the program has turned in a different direction than most of you think. Of course I'm not there in the mix, so I don't know everything. But I know that at least some (if not, most) of the Penn State community is, for the most part, over the whole ordeal and just focused on the Penn State of tomorrow.

[IceCap]

What price did they pay?

[Still MIGHTY]

What did you want them to do, Mike? Because, in my opinion, this was never the jurisdiction of the NCAA. This isn't the same as what went on with USC or Ohio State or Miami. This didn't have anything to do with competition or the on-field product, just the people in charge and with the university itself. This wasn't a NCAA issue, in my mind. (And really, I've always thought vacating wins was a dumb penalty anyway.)

As far as what the university could do, everyone involved lost their jobs. I don't know if the Pennsylvania legislature or board of education did anything, but they're the people that should have (or did) punished Penn State.

[Viola73]

Paterno gets his wins back.

About freaking time.

That's a G-ddamned disgrace.

I know. They should never have taken the wins from him in the first place.

[Viola73]

The NCAA's next step: Giving Mike McQueary a job.

If there needs to be someone punished, other than Sandusky, it's McQueary. You know, the guy who actually saw something and did nothing but call his dad and wait for 24 hours to tell someone, but that someone was not the cops.

[Viola73]

Who cares if he gets his wins back? It isn't affecting anyone of you. We already know that the NCAA is a joke and a disgrace anyway.

You punish to hurt the transgressor, but also to set an example for future trangressees. If you don't follow through with your punishments, you enable future bad actors.

I agree with punishing the transgressor, and Sandusky will not see the light of day for a looooooong time. The thing is the NCAA over reached in some of their punishments when it involved punishing people who had nothing to do with what Sandusky did to those kids. So, when the NCAA saw that PSU took those punishments to heart and made actual changes then the NCAA saw an opportunity to give back some of those things that they took away.

[IceCap]

That's a G-ddamned disgrace.

I know. They should never have taken the wins from him in the first place.

...no.

What did you want them to do, Mike? Because, in my opinion, this was never the jurisdiction of the NCAA. This isn't the same as what went on with USC or Ohio State or Miami. This didn't have anything to do with competition or the on-field product, just the people in charge and with the university itself. This wasn't a NCAA issue, in my mind. (And really, I've always thought vacating wins was a dumb penalty anyway.)

As far as what the university could do, everyone involved lost their jobs. I don't know if the Pennsylvania legislature or board of education did anything, but they're the people that should have (or did) punished Penn State.

It's a NCAA issue because the cause of the corruption was the football team. The malcontents who ran the team, Paterno included, knowingly enabled a paedophile. The football team got to be so large that it poisoned the culture of the school. The NCAA, as the self-appointed guardians of the game at the collegiate level, had a moral authority to act.

[Viola73]

Paterno acted in self-interest, allowing a known pedophile to hurt children under his watch while he did nothing to preserve his own cult of personality and the "reputation" of a G-ddamned football team.

So, again, how Did JoePa KNOW Sandusky was a pedo when the local and state police investigated Sandusky and found nothing, the state children's service investigated Sandusky and found nothing. It strikes me odd as JoePa would have known Sandusky was a pedo and hired him? Also odd as when McQueary told JoePa what MCQUEARY SAW that JoePa told his higher ups of the situation. So, thrill me with a undisputed FACT that Joe KNEW Sandusky was a pedo.

Taking the wins from that era away wasn't an attempt to deny that they happened, but to remind everyone that they occurred at the expense of people who were harmed by a monster who was enabled by the team and, ultimately, the school.

The best thing that could have happened would have been to shut the program down for four years and flush everyone out so that when it came back it had an entirely different culture. They didn't do that, and eventually backtracked on what meaningful penalties they did dish out.

Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, and the NCAA. The deepest, darkest pit of Hell was made for you people.

I understand that you are in some type of flaming rage and I hope that you can see your way through what ever type of hurt you are experiencing. Seriously.

[IceCap]

Paterno acted in self-interest, allowing a known pedophile to hurt children under his watch while he did nothing to preserve his own cult of personality and the "reputation" of a G-ddamned football team.

So, again, how Did JoePa KNOW Sandusky was a pedo when the local and state police investigated Sandusky and found nothing, the state children's service investigated Sandusky and found nothing. It strikes me odd as JoePa would have known Sandusky was a pedo and hired him? Also odd as when McQueary told JoePa what MCQUEARY SAW that JoePa told his higher ups of the situation. So, thrill me with a undisputed FACT that Joe KNEW Sandusky was a pedo.

Experienced people paid to investigate if he knew determined he did.

Taking the wins from that era away wasn't an attempt to deny that they happened, but to remind everyone that they occurred at the expense of people who were harmed by a monster who was enabled by the team and, ultimately, the school.

The best thing that could have happened would have been to shut the program down for four years and flush everyone out so that when it came back it had an entirely different culture. They didn't do that, and eventually backtracked on what meaningful penalties they did dish out.

Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, and the NCAA. The deepest, darkest pit of Hell was made for you people.

I understand that you are in some type of flaming rage and I hope that you can see your way through what ever type of hurt you are experiencing. Seriously.

Cute. Look, you have a long track record of dying on a hill for "JoePa" and Penn State, so I recognize that what I'm going to say is going to fly in one ear and out another, but screw it. It has to be said.

I'm upset because one of, if not the, most heinous crimes a person is capable of was allowed to continue unabated by a coach and school administration who valued the reputation of a football team more then the lives of children who were victimized. And that the NCAA, who for once in their existence actually had the moral fortitude to make a stand, backtracked like cowards because those who had the most to gain from the continued idolization of Paterno wouldn't accept the fact that their hero/patriarch enabled a criminal for a decade.

Children. Were. Hurt. The fact that you're more concerned about the legacy of your surrogate father figure then the lives Sandusky ruined speaks to your lack of priorities as a person. I sincerely hope you one day gain some moral clarity.

[Viola73]

You had students rioting in defence of Paterno even after the full extent of his culpability had been exposed.

I'll give you the students rioting was a disgrace, but what culpability was exposed to full extent? He did the right thing and informed his higher ups since HE NEVER SAW WHAT HAPPENED. Here is a new name to put to that list of people you said Hell was made for...McQueary...M c Q u e a r y...say it with me Meh Queer ee. You know....the guy who actually saw something.

Those weren't kids directly connected to to the football team. They were business, history, poli-sci, biology, psychology, etc... majors who were deeply invested in the myth Paterno cultivated for himself and for the football program.

Apparently so are you.

It's a sad fact that this was allowed to happen because the football team became so big and so important that it was able to dictate policy and foster an atmosphere of protection where anything that could damage the reputation of the team was swept under the rug.

Yeah, and change state laws, and make law enforcement, local and state, turn their heads and ignore a pedophile. Is that what you are saying?

Yes, most Penn State faculty, students, and alumni were innocent in this. That doesn't mean that the school was "clean" though. There were, and apparently still are, major cultural issues that need to be addressed yet won't be because the people running the school are delusional and the NCAA is happy to enable them.

That's what I mean when I say Penn State.

Oh, glad you cleared that up.

[IceCap]

You had students rioting in defence of Paterno even after the full extent of his culpability had been exposed.

I'll give you the students rioting was a disgrace, but what culpability was exposed to full extent? He did the right thing and informed his higher ups since HE NEVER SAW WHAT HAPPENED. Here is a new name to put to that list of people you said Hell was made for...McQueary...M c Q u e a r y...say it with me Meh Queer ee. You know....the guy who actually saw something.

So according to you Paterno had no moral obligation to contact the police and inform them that one of his subordinates witnessed Jerry Sundusky sexually assaulting a child?

Those weren't kids directly connected to to the football team. They were business, history, poli-sci, biology, psychology, etc... majors who were deeply invested in the myth Paterno cultivated for himself and for the football program.

Apparently so are you.

No, I just don't like seeing wrongs go unpunished. Paterno's inaction allowed a child predator to continue to hurt children. Again...the fact that you care more about how that affects Paterno's legacy then the children who were victimized says oh so much about you as a person.

[Viola73]

Well, it does restore him as the winning-est coach of all-time. It's significant in that regard if you care about those things. Then again, he passed Bobby Bowden, who was no stranger to scandals himself (though obviously none as significant as what happened at Penn State).

I don't think it was ever the NCAA"s place to take wins away from Paterno in the first place. To me its one of the more silly things the NCAA does. You can't go through the record book, pick out the things you like and ignore the things you don't.

But this isn't just about the wins/loss record. Paterno has the record in my view whether the NCAA or anyone else feels he deserves to or not. Can't deny that part of his legacy, try as some people might. That's not what I care about.

What I care about is for all the uproar about bringing people to justice at Penn State and changing the culture there, ultimately in the end status quo won out. For the amount of victims Jerry Sandusky had over the length of time he was able to operate, there is no possible way he did not have a lot of help from a lot of people along the way. That's the part that's freighting. The institutions we set up to protect our children failed in the name of trying to help Penn State beat Ohio State this Saturday. Even more freighting as a society we seem to be completely incapable of doing anything about it because the forces that enable that type of behavior are just too strong to overcome.

Joe Paterno however fair or unfair has become the symbol of those forces. It is very important to remember though he is far from the only one culpable and that part of the story seemed to get lost along the way. What happened in Happy Valley could have happened anywhere in this country where sports has that much importance and still can.

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.

You are able to see the whole picture and not just one person. A lot of people failed these kids, but to some JoePa is the be all end all culprit in this ugly saga.

[Viola73]

Paterno acted in self-interest, allowing a known pedophile to hurt children under his watch while he did nothing to preserve his own cult of personality and the "reputation" of a G-ddamned football team.

So, again, how Did JoePa KNOW Sandusky was a pedo when the local and state police investigated Sandusky and found nothing, the state children's service investigated Sandusky and found nothing. It strikes me odd as JoePa would have known Sandusky was a pedo and hired him? Also odd as when McQueary told JoePa what MCQUEARY SAW that JoePa told his higher ups of the situation. So, thrill me with a undisputed FACT that Joe KNEW Sandusky was a pedo.

Experienced people paid to investigate if he knew determined he did.

Taking the wins from that era away wasn't an attempt to deny that they happened, but to remind everyone that they occurred at the expense of people who were harmed by a monster who was enabled by the team and, ultimately, the school.

The best thing that could have happened would have been to shut the program down for four years and flush everyone out so that when it came back it had an entirely different culture. They didn't do that, and eventually backtracked on what meaningful penalties they did dish out.

Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky, Penn State, and the NCAA. The deepest, darkest pit of Hell was made for you people.

I understand that you are in some type of flaming rage and I hope that you can see your way through what ever type of hurt you are experiencing. Seriously.

Cute. Look, you have a long track record of dying on a hill for "JoePa" and Penn State, so I recognize that what I'm going to say is going to fly in one ear and out another, but screw it. It has to be said.

I'm upset because one of, if not the, most heinous crimes a person is capable of was allowed to continue unabated by a coach and school administration who valued the reputation of a football team more then the lives of children who were victimized. And that the NCAA, who for once in their existence actually had the moral fortitude to make a stand, backtracked like cowards because those who had the most to gain from the continued idolization of Paterno wouldn't accept the fact that their hero/patriarch enabled a criminal for a decade.

Children. Were. Hurt. The fact that you're more concerned about the legacy of your surrogate father figure then the lives Sandusky ruined speaks to your lack of priorities as a person. I sincerely hope you one day gain some moral clarity.

Yeah, Paterno knew....after McQueary told him what he saw in the showers.

Yes, I know children were hurt and it is a hurt that may never go away for the rest of their lives and the people of that region, including my relatives, are going to have to live with it as well.

Speaking of moral clarity, you seemed obsessed with one person as well. I get that you hate JoePa and PSU but you are missing so much to this horror and I am afraid that this just may be the surface of ground swell that may engulf a whole region of Pennsylvania. Hopefully you will be able, some day, to take off the blinders of hate you have for one man and come to grips that there are many, many, many, people who dropped the ball on this one.

[Viola73]

You had students rioting in defence of Paterno even after the full extent of his culpability had been exposed.

I'll give you the students rioting was a disgrace, but what culpability was exposed to full extent? He did the right thing and informed his higher ups since HE NEVER SAW WHAT HAPPENED. Here is a new name to put to that list of people you said Hell was made for...McQueary...M c Q u e a r y...say it with me Meh Queer ee. You know....the guy who actually saw something.

So according to you Paterno had no moral obligation to contact the police and inform them that one of his subordinates witnessed Jerry Sundusky sexually assaulting a child?

Those weren't kids directly connected to to the football team. They were business, history, poli-sci, biology, psychology, etc... majors who were deeply invested in the myth Paterno cultivated for himself and for the football program.

Apparently so are you.

No, I just don't like seeing wrongs go unpunished. Paterno's inaction allowed a child predator to continue to hurt children. Again...the fact that you care more about how that affects Paterno's legacy then the children who were victimized says oh so much about you as a person.

I will give you that had I been JoePa and McQueary told me what he saw in the shower, I would have said, "Get your coat, I am taking you to the police station to make a statement." Now what McQ would have told the police would be up for debate as well as what the police would have done with whatever info McQ gave them. THEN I would have told the uppers. Again, in that situation McQ could have told the police something outrageous or even say he mistook what he saw, but that would be on McQ and not Joe.

Joe did what he thought, and who he thought, could handle this best. Unfortunately those people were the cowards and chose not to do anything and here we a chatting about the outcome and debating it at 3 in the morning.

I don't like to see those who did wrong go unpunished as well. Sandusky is in prison, and the uppers are gone and will stand trial, I hope. I also hope the state and local authorities take these matters more seriously in the future if they ever come up again.

The fact that you want to pin this all on a head coach says ALOT about your optics and psychology.

[IceCap]

You seem to think that I'm only laying the blame at Paterno's feet. I'm not. I blame him for both turning a blind eye to Sandusky's crimes and for fostering an atmosphere where anything that could have harmed the reputation of the football team at PSU was swept under the rug. That being said? You're right. Paterno wasn't the only one who was in the wrong here. And I hold every single person who "dropped the ball" just as responsible as I hold Paterno.

My focus on Paterno in this thread is due to the fact that the story in question is centred around him. If/when someone else who was involved in this cover-up is given a simple slap on the wrists I will react with the same moral outrage I have here.

See, I don't hate Joe Paterno because of some fixation you seem to think I have with Penn State. No, I find Paterno reprehensible because children were being victimized under his watch and he failed to protect them when he had the opportunity.

Something else you may wish to consider. Recognizing that Paterno wasn't the only guilty party here doesn't absolve him of his guilt.

[Cosmic]

In a world where the NCAA will sanction a school for a student washing their car with university water, covering up and enabling sexual molestation of children certainly seems worth a look.

[Sport]

There's a reason this is one of my top ten favorite sports memories

My alma mater, representing the rest of the country in Penn State's first game since the news, went into State College and won. It was grand.

It's mindboggling people still defend Joe Paterno. He had too much power and his priorities, and as a result the priorites of PSU and State College, PA, were thrown way out of whack. There are more important things than football and a lot of people in that part of the country lost sight of that.

If my greatest sports hero of all time did what Joe Paterno did (or didn't do in this case) I'd wash my hands of any hero worship of the guy. Our heroes often disappoint us. It happens and Joepologists need to let go of their grampa. He didn't do the right thing. Maybe vacating wins is a little silly, but it was a punishment for the culture that allowed the crimes to occur. Remember, Sandusky retired mysteriously in the late 90's so Paterno knew something yet still allowed the monster to bring kids around the facilities. Yeah, sorry, that's not okay with me.

Yes, Mike McQueary should've beat the out of Sandusky the second he saw him in the shower and he should've held his knee on his throat until the cops showed up. But Joe Paterno was also very very wrong.