Chicageaux

2014 NCAA Football Thread

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I just have a hard time believing that at that point in Paterno's career, he would have kept around for 20 years a major assistant coach that he didn't like or that he wouldn't have spoken up about his emeritus title or the other perks given to him in retirement that he hadn't necessarily earned. That seems like revisionist history at its finest.

I have seen many coaching staff and players not like each other and even hate each other. As long as the winning continues, even if you hate the person, you coach with them, you play with them. Again, Sandusky getting emeritus status had nothing to do with Joe. He had no say in it.

I think Spanier, Curly and the psychologist John Seasock are the biggest villains in this whole thing (other than Sandusky, naturally). Spanier, at least, is facing a perjury trial. He certainly knew what was up, and sought to cover things up. John Seasock gave a second opinion on a damning police file in 1998 that included ridiculous things like (paraphrasing) "I have never heard of a 50something man becoming a pedophile." The DA said that his report made it too difficult for them to press charges. I think that's where most of the blame lies for the coverup.

Thank You. You are one of the few who have pointed to the real culprits, other than Sandusky, who had the REAL MORAL OBLIGATION and failed. These people had real power and real possibilities of actually doing something...and failed.

At the same time, I think Paterno should have done more. This is part of the testimony he gave about the McQueary incident:

Q: Without getting into any graphic detail, what did Mr. McQueary tell you he had seen and where?

Mr. Paterno: Well, he had seen a person, an older ā€” not an older, but a mature person who was fondling, whatever you might call it ā€” Iā€™m not sure what the term would be ā€” a young boy.

Q: Did he identify who that older person was?

Mr. Paterno: Yes, a man by the name of Jerry Sandusky who had been one of our coaches, was not at the time.

That incident was around ten years before the scandal broke. I mean, the next time he saw Sandusky around, he probably should have been like, "So, ah, heard you were touching a little boy in the shower?!? Doesn't seem-- I'm not sure what the term would be-- wrong to you?!?!" There doesn't seem to be anyone with knowledge of the situation that acted properly... indicated by the fact that there were multiple people who knew what was going on, but it was years before anything really came of it.

I get that Joe is the most knowable person in this scandal, and therefore people only see Joe in this ugly horror and therefore will put most of the blame on him. The thing is what more could Joe do? Like I said before if I was Joe I would have taken McQ to the police, and have McQ make a statement. But after that who knows what would have happened.

As far as approaching Sandy and saying what you said, it would be a mistake at that point knowing that it has been taken to higher ups and left it in there hands and since Joe didn't see anything he wouldn't even been in the loop as to how the investigation was progressing.

This thing is like a watch with a lot of moving parts, but you pretty much hit it on the head earlier.

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I get that Joe is the most knowable person in this scandal, and therefore people only see Joe in this ugly horror and therefore will put most of the blame on him. The thing is what more could Joe do? Like I said before if I was Joe I would have taken McQ to the police, and have McQ make a statement. But after that who knows what would have happened.

Follow up. Repeatedly. Ban Sandusky from the Penn State athletic facilities, if not the entire campus (and yes, Paterno could get somebody blackballed from the athletic facilities at minimum). Raise a huge stink and threaten to go public that the State College/Penn State University police and administration are coddling and protecting a child molester. Paterno has quite the bully pulpit to use if need be. These are the things an honorable person would do.

As far as approaching Sandy and saying what you said, it would be a mistake at that point knowing that it has been taken to higher ups and left it in there hands and since Joe didn't see anything he wouldn't even been in the loop as to how the investigation was progressing.

Oh, he can still be in the loop if he wants to be. And again, simply going over and asking "hey, how's the investigation going. It would be really bad if you're just trying to bury the whole thing and I were to leak something to the media" is well within his rights and abilities.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

The NCAA just caved and removed a punishment which, while normally meaningless, was actually meaningful based on the yelping of the Paterno camp.And it was a fitting punishment.
No, it was punishment based on the yelping of the media (network and social) to act and the NCAA rushed the punishment and now they are seeing that they over reached and back tracking. Even ESPN is saying they over reached.

Paterno was the Big Man on Campus, and even if all he needed to do was kick the problem upstairs, an ethical, honorable human being would probably have followed up on that with the administration at least once or twice. All indications are he didn't even do that.

And what would they have told him? Since he didn't see the incident and Sandusky wasn't a coach at the time, what would they have told him?

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The penalty might have been a little harsh if the wins were taken away from Paterno specifically, but they were taken away from the school; Paterno is just the person most affected by it. The school itself was 1,000% guilty. I completely agree with stripping all of their wins from the 1998 coverup onwards.

No they were taken away from the football program, not the school. And since Paterno was the football coach since time began they took the wins away from Paterno.

The school is guilty...the whole school...the students, professors, cleaning crew, etc.

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Can we just quit beating this dead horse?? Really??

The NCAA just caved and removed a punishment which, while normally meaningless, was actually meaningful based on the yelping of the Paterno camp.

And it was a fitting punishment. Paterno was the Big Man on Campus, and even if all he needed to do was kick the problem upstairs, an ethical, honorable human being would probably have followed up on that with the administration at least once or twice. All indications are he didn't even do that.

And he didn't even go to all of the proper authorities. The sane and proper response when confronted with allegations of such an act occurring would be to immediately pick up the phone and call the police. McQUEARY failed to do that. He is responsible for those rapes continuing because he didn't do what he was morally obligated to do. You don't go to your boss and report it. You don't go to someone who has a vested interest in covering up something that would reflect poorly on your employer. You do your damn job as a human being and you call the cops.
Fixed your post.

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McQUEARY should take a huge amount because he had direct knowledge of it occurring and did not respond properly. He deserves all the heat and hatred he gets. If those children had been murdered instead of raped, the blood would be on his hands.

Hell, I'll say the blood is still on his hands anyway even though there were no fatalities. :censored: McQUEARY and :censored: his legacy.

Fixed your post again. This is becoming a habit.

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I get that Joe is the most knowable person in this scandal, and therefore people only see Joe in this ugly horror and therefore will put most of the blame on him. The thing is what more could Joe do? Like I said before if I was Joe I would have taken McQ to the police, and have McQ make a statement. But after that who knows what would have happened.

Follow up. Repeatedly. Ban Sandusky from the Penn State athletic facilities, if not the entire campus (and yes, Paterno could get somebody blackballed from the athletic facilities at minimum). Raise a huge stink and threaten to go public that the State College/Penn State University police and administration are coddling and protecting a child molester. Paterno has quite the bully pulpit to use if need be. These are the things an honorable person would do.

As far as approaching Sandy and saying what you said, it would be a mistake at that point knowing that it has been taken to higher ups and left it in there hands and since Joe didn't see anything he wouldn't even been in the loop as to how the investigation was progressing.

Oh, he can still be in the loop if he wants to be. And again, simply going over and asking "hey, how's the investigation going. It would be really bad if you're just trying to bury the whole thing and I were to leak something to the media" is well within his rights and abilities.

All Joe could have done, like you say, was ask how's it going. And all they could say is that it's being investigated or its on going. That is it. Period. Now Joe could have gone to the press and told them to talk to McQueary and he could have said I didn't see a thing. Again, Joe had not seen anything, so how could he go to the press after Sandy was investigated, several times, and they found nothing. Joe had no idea what Sandy was doing and didn't know about the investigations. If Joe had a fault it was trusting the uppers to know how to handle something like this.

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Sometimes institutions fail. And sometimes when institutions fail, people who have a vested interest in those institutions look for ways to blame individuals. The thinking is that if it's just a few no-goodnicks that messed everything up, maybe then the institution isn't so bad to begin with.

But the fact is that when institutions fail -- when institutions provide cover for years of child rape -- everyone in a leadership position, as well as anyone who has the potential to gain from the institution's successes, needs to be responsible for that failure. Especially when that failure is on the scale of Penn State.

It's so depressing that barely a couple of years later, people are so intent on whitewashing the whole scandal and blaming it on a few bad actors, while convincing themselves that the underlying institution is still good. I'm sure there are a lot of good people at Penn State, but there were a lot of monsters too. Because of the severity of what happened at Penn State, the football program and the school's administration needed to suffer far more than it did. And certainly the mild punishments originally instituted needed to, at the very least, stick.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

It's just code word for "I'm tired of people criticizing my team, so I want it to stop".

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

Well, you guys are beating a really dead horse.

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edit: nevermind

I was at the Ohio State-Penn State game in 2006 when Joe Paterno got diarhhea and had to run across the field to go to the locker room. I felt bad for him at the time. I don't feel bad for him anymore.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

Well, you guys are beating a really dead horse.

It was a sucky thing, and it hasn't stopped being sucky. Those are the kinds of things that tend to linger. And we were reminded of how sucky it all is when the NCAA lifted the sanctions just recently.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

Well, you guys are beating a really dead horse.

Speaking for myself the horse came back to life when PSU started parading the 409 around...they showed their colors, culture, and awareness.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

Pick another team to cheer for if you much. The SEC has plenty of teams that would appeal to your longing sense of redneck solidarity.

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I get that Joe is the most knowable person in this scandal, and therefore people only see Joe in this ugly horror and therefore will put most of the blame on him. The thing is what more could Joe do? Like I said before if I was Joe I would have taken McQ to the police, and have McQ make a statement. But after that who knows what would have happened.

Follow up. Repeatedly. Ban Sandusky from the Penn State athletic facilities, if not the entire campus (and yes, Paterno could get somebody blackballed from the athletic facilities at minimum). Raise a huge stink and threaten to go public that the State College/Penn State University police and administration are coddling and protecting a child molester. Paterno has quite the bully pulpit to use if need be. These are the things an honorable person would do.

As far as approaching Sandy and saying what you said, it would be a mistake at that point knowing that it has been taken to higher ups and left it in there hands and since Joe didn't see anything he wouldn't even been in the loop as to how the investigation was progressing.

Oh, he can still be in the loop if he wants to be. And again, simply going over and asking "hey, how's the investigation going. It would be really bad if you're just trying to bury the whole thing and I were to leak something to the media" is well within his rights and abilities.

All Joe could have done, like you say, was ask how's it going. And all they could say is that it's being investigated or its on going. That is it. Period. Now Joe could have gone to the press and told them to talk to McQueary and he could have said I didn't see a thing. Again, Joe had not seen anything, so how could he go to the press after Sandy was investigated, several times, and they found nothing. Joe had no idea what Sandy was doing and didn't know about the investigations. If Joe had a fault it was trusting the uppers to know how to handle something like this.

That's a big fault. Paterno was the institution. The reaction of Penn State and the Penn State community to all of this only serves to reinforce that Paterno and the institution of Penn State were synonymous.

But more importantly. You're allowed to follow up and probe and ask "hey, are you actually doing anything?" Hell, it's becoming common for rank and file employees at academic institutions to be told to follow up, report to the police, and again follow up.

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I think it's time we move past this discussion

This is a weird comment to make on a message board. There are lots of conversations taking place I'm not interested in. I don't step in the middle and say "GUYS! I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS ANYMORE!" You're welcome to introduce a new NCAA-related topic or not read. But declaring "let's move along here" in a non-compulsory discussion is a weird thing to do.

Well, you guys are beating a really dead horse.

Speaking for myself the horse came back to life when PSU started parading the 409 around...they showed their colors, culture, and awareness.

Clearly not a dead horse to Penn State supporters, who will seemingly stop at nothing to make sure Sandusky and a few nameless officials are the only ones held accountable in this. They were willing to go to court in order to restore Joe Pa's wins.

Why should it be a dead horse for their critics?

Seeing the lengths they've gone to defend Joe Paterno's legacy and lengths they willing to go to investigate Jerry Sandusky should tell you all you need to know about what Penn State really cares about. That's why people can't just "let it go".

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It isn't a "dead horse" for the kids who were hurt.

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So you had moral outrage when the DA screwed up, the child services TWICE investigated Sandy and found nothing, the police, the Big 3 for THEIR cover up, McQ not acting. You must be morally outraged out by now.

Did he really just refer to Jerry Sandusky as "Sandy?" Jesus. Talk about ruining my National Championship buzz.

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