NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Cosmic]

St. Louis is doing the right thing, but they're about two years behind schedule. I think that's basically the point that Gothamite is trying to make. Yes, there's a point in every process where it's just concept art and blue-sky funding ideas, but the fact that St. Louis appears to have only gotten there in 2015, two years after the arbitrator ruled against them... well, it doesn't speak well for them.

[Gothamite]

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

This isn't Apple Maps, it's a post-it note labeled "Maps" stuck on the front of a phone.

They obviously didn't do any of the hard work. And after two whole years, to have not done it, just shows the priorities. Which is fine. I applaud cities for not building stadiums. But be honest about it.

And as far as MLS goes, they're not pushovers any more either. They won't even let David Beckham buy a team until he has a stadium deal in place. St. Louis will certainly need to pony up first if they want to play.

[The_Admiral]

What is a normal time frame between going from nothing to having something 'done' for a new stadium?

Seems like the Falcons and Braves were done in well under two and a half years. Especially the Braves......

Well, always helps when you can work in secret in an unincorporated area and prevent citizens from dissenting.

[HedleyLamarr]

St. Louis mentioned having PSL's as part of their plan. They may very well have them now. But how many events do they have besides the 10 Rams games that require seats? I'm sure they're a part of the Motocross and Monster Truck tours, but what else? Especially once they play in an open-air facility.

At least there's some incentive for PSL's for the Falcons new stadium....Falcons, Georgia State football, the MLS team, the SEC Football Championship, the Peach Bowl (which is either the National Championship, a National Semifinal, or New Year's Six), the season opening Chick-Fil-A Kickoff game(s), the Final Four, a few concerts and shows, the aforementioned Monster Truck/Supercross tours, etc.

[STL FANATIC]

And as far as MLS goes, they're not pushovers any more either. They won't even let David Beckham buy a team until he has a stadium deal in place. St. Louis will certainly need to pony up first if they want to play.

I didn't mean to suggest anything to the contrary. I'm just saying the MLS is the only reason I'd particularly care for this to all happen.

St. Louis mentioned having PSL's as part of their plan. They may very well have them now. But how many events do they have besides the 10 Rams games that require seats? I'm sure they're a part of the Motocross and Monster Truck tours, but what else? Especially once they play in an open-air facility.

At least there's some incentive for PSL's for the Falcons new stadium....Falcons, Georgia State football, the MLS team, the SEC Football Championship, the Peach Bowl (which is either the National Championship, a National Semifinal, or New Year's Six), the season opening Chick-Fil-A Kickoff game(s), the Final Four, a few concerts and shows, the aforementioned Monster Truck/Supercross tours, etc.

The Dome has always had PSLs, and not a whole lot of other seated events with any frequency, so while a valid point, it wouldn't be anything new.

[STL FANATIC]

If St. Louis pulls this together in the next 6 months or so, that'll be having something done in about 2.5 years since the arbitration was ruled on. That's a normal to quick pass to work out a stadium deal.

What is a normal time frame between going from nothing to having something 'done' for a new stadium?

Seems like the Falcons and Braves were done in well under two and a half years. Especially the Braves......

The Braves seemed like a particularly strange scenario, so I don't really know what to say about it. Nobody knew that was coming.

The Falcons first floated the possibility of a new stadium in May 2010. They did move quickly, releasing preliminary plans in February 2011, and clarified plans in April 2012. The city agreed to the deal in March 2013. The deal capped public dollars at $200 million.

I don't know if apples to oranges is the right statement, but it's certainly granny smith to fuji apples. This was a stadium drive led by the Falcons. The brought it up. They submitted the proposal. They committed to pay for the large majority of it, and they worked with the city to get the right approvals. Arthur Blank led the charge.

Stan Kroenke has been completely absent from these discussions, leaving St. Louis to guess what he wants and foot most of the bill. (Hell, maybe it's the whole bill. He hasn't said he'll chip in a dime.)

Even with Blank leading everything and paying for most of it, it was still a multi-year process. And the Falcons may be the quickest example in the last decade.

[Gothamite]

MLS would be a great choice, though, if they can get a stadium built.

[Cosmic]

Exciting Bills stadium news. The state commissioned a firm independently of the Bills/NFL to find the best stadium sites. Comparing this to the St. Louis situation, this report is being released with eight years left on the Bills' current lease. The firm released a report today with four "short-listed" sites: three in downtown Buffalo plus the current site about nine miles south. The one that makes the most sense is to do a super renovation a la Lambeau or Arrowhead, and potentially save hundreds of millions of dollars. The sexiest (and IMO most likely one) is on the top left: steps away from existing light rail, next to hundreds of millions in real estate that the Pegulas already own, the Pegulas already own most of the footprint of that site through the Sabres, and it would build off of the momentum going right now in the Canalside district.

Cost estimates, clockwise from top left: $788M, $784M, $912M, $555M for a renovation of the Ralph. You can also knock off $188M to have an open-air stadium at either of the sites on the right; supposedly, the top-left site does not get the right natural light to have an open-air stadium.

[The_Admiral]

Ralph Wilson Stadium on a clear fall day is beautiful. Downtown Buffalo needs many things; a stadium that's empty for ~350 days a year isn't one of them. Save what you have.

[BBTV]

It is great that they're thinking this far ahead. I think it's fair to say that if not for the lease and other agreements in the sale, the Bills would be on the short list for relocation.

1. So they're talking dome? That's a shame. Sure they'd get more use out of it (maybe - not sure if there are enough major conventions that take place in Buffalo, and it's not like they're getting Final Four or Super Bowl.)

2. If they were to "soldier field"-ize the Ralph, is there a viable place for them to play for 2 seasons? Any chance they'd move full-time to Toronto while the new Ralph is being constructed?

3. If they do a dome, and it's retractable, I really hope it's not like the new Atlanta one, or the Colts one, where it's not so much "retractable" as it is just a hole in the roof. Even when open, you can't really call those things "open air" stadiums. The closest to doing it the right way is probably Houston, and even that probably isn't as "open" as it should be.

[pcgd]

The only "open air" thing about Indy that works is the large window that looks out to downtown. Otherwise the roof is pointless.

How many football stadiums with retractable roofs are actually substantial enough to feel like an outdoor stadium? Baseball ones usually have more space that opens, but to me both Houston and Milwaukee still feel like domes even with the roofs open. I think you sacrafice quite a bit when you go retractable no matter what.

Edit: sorry skimmed your last thought a bit too much and you acknowledged what I said before I said it. I'll leave it though for the comment about baseball ones too.

[2001mark]

That image feels like playing SimCity.

[2001mark]

2. If they were to "soldier field"-ize the Ralph, is there a viable place for them to play for 2 seasons? Any chance they'd move full-time to Toronto while the new Ralph is being constructed?

I think they would probably consider Toronto now that we're not longer a threat to the team's future. Or maybe play in Syracuse? Maybe too far.

If they really wanted, they could probably get away with playing in Hamilton's new stadium. Outdoors, though def not NFL spec.

[rams80]

2. If they were to "soldier field"-ize the Ralph, is there a viable place for them to play for 2 seasons? Any chance they'd move full-time to Toronto while the new Ralph is being constructed?

I think they would probably consider Toronto now that we're not longer a threat to the team's future. Or maybe play in Syracuse? Maybe too far.

If they really wanted, they could probably get away with playing in Hamilton's new stadium. Outdoors, though def not NFL spec.

UB Stadium is bigger than Hamilton's new stadium.

[STL FANATIC]

Comparing this to the St. Louis situation, this report is being released with eight years left on the Bills' current lease.

It's a fair point, and I understand what you guys are saying. But I guess I'd respond to it like this:

There are simply certain realities that have to be considered when discussing new stadiums. Selling public funds for these things is always tough. Always. It's going to be tough right now. The Edward Jones Dome won't turn 20 until November. So it's a 19-year old building right now.

Rewind 8 years. Or hell, let's just re-wind three years. What would the public appetite have been for funding an $800+ million stadium to replace a 16-year old venue. The answer is absolutely none.

It just wasn't going to happen. Which is why I will again say that the pooch was screwed with the original lease and the original building. Any "better" way of handling this from St. Louis' end is pure fantasy.

[BBTV]

While I've never been there, it seems like Seattle's baseball stadium is the only retractable roof stadium that really allows for an open air feeling. Of course the roof seems more like a giant umbrella and less of an enclosure - I'm not sure if when closed it is actually "air tight"

I'm not sure if such a concept is able to be executed with a football stadium - with the possible exception of the bizarre rolling roof thing that was proposed in Kansas city.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

While I've never been there, it seems like Seattle's baseball stadium is the only retractable roof stadium that really allows for an open air feeling. Of course the roof seems more like a giant umbrella and less of an enclosure - I'm not sure if when closed it is actually "air tight"

I'm not sure if such a concept is able to be executed with a football stadium - with the possible exception of the bizarre rolling roof thing that was proposed in Kansas city.

A "giant umbrella" is a perfect explanation for Safeco's roof. I've sat in the bleachers and gotten wet while it's raining; it's far better for some seats than others.

On the topic, didn't Ralph Wilson just undergo major renovations? Seems silly to even consider a new stadium, especially when the team isn't at risk of being moved (right???).

[STL FANATIC]

On the topic, didn't Ralph Wilson just undergo major renovations? Seems silly to even consider a new stadium, especially when the team isn't at risk of being moved (right???).

Apparently this is what you have to do in order to not lose your team.

FWIW, the recent renovations were $130 million. So not a complete makeover, but substantial upgrades.

What I find interesting about that, is that St. Louis' proposal to the Rams was for $124 million in upgrades. Had the Rams accepted or had the CVC won in arbitration, this would have locked the lease in for the final 10 years, and they would have been able to begin focusing on the next step a few years down the line. Probably pretty similar to what Buffalo is doing.

Instead, though, the lease in St. Louis was SO favorable to the Rams, that that wasn't good enough. And they're in the situation they are now.

Like I said, it was the lease that created this impossible situation. There wasn't a reasonably good way to succeed under these parameters unless the owner of the team was willing to play ball and help create a reasonable solution. He had every right not to (well, at least under the terms of the lease, NFL rules maybe suggest something a little different); I understand that. But once he decided that was his plan, there wasn't much St. Louis could reasonably do other than what they have.

[Cosmic]

Ralph Wilson Stadium has undergone mid-level renovations, and I think there are more coming (negotiated as part of this stopgap lease they're in now). It is wasteful, and I hope they can do something about it if they make quick progress on a new stadium. Like I said, renovating the old stadium makes the most sense, but it isn't sexy. There could be significant public pressure to make use of the money already spent, as well as reducing new funds needed. There are already whispers, it just depends on whether or not it catches on.

Did the Packers and Chiefs have to vacate their stadia during renovations? Those teams are the examples being thrown around, not the Bears. If they do have to play somewhere else, UB makes the most sense by far: local and owned by the state. The only thing is it's like 32,000 seats. That may not include some tarped-off sections, but it's small no matter what.

[STL FANATIC]

I don't recall the Chiefs or Packers playing elsewhere. I think they played through renovations. The Bears are the only team I can think of recently moving elsewhere during renovations. (Obviously the Vikings played in a temporary venue during the building of their new stadium.)