NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[STL FANATIC]

The plot thickens:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/28/if-only-one-team-goes-to-l-a-it-could-be-the-chargers/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Not really. The Chargers' LA stadium plan hinges on the Raiders coming along. The team can't afford to be the only one moving. They're either partners with the Raiders or a tenant of the Rams.

Actually, I know that I saw it reported somewhere that the Chargers were originally working with Goldman-Sachs by themselves had had financing pretty well ready to go on a stadium plan before ultimately choosing to get the Raiders involved.

It's certainly less likely at this point that they would back track on it, but if that report was accurate, there's reason to believe the Chargers could indeed go it alone. (Well, not truly alone, but with Goldman-Sachs.)

[STL FANATIC]

This

This group of owners also believes that a Chargers move to LA would be the "least disruptive" to NFL fan bases because the team is already based in Southern California

shows that the "group of owners" doesn't actually know much about a Southern California. Would they suggest that the Eagles could move to NYC with little disruption? After all, Philly's closer to the Statue of Liberty than SD is to LA. This whole "one big market" argument is such nonsense.

That's not apples to apples, though. NYC has not only 2 teams, but other teams relatively nearby.

For the past 20 years, San Diego has been the only team remotely close to Los Angeles.

Sure, the idea that all of Southern California is one market is silly, but the idea that Chargers fans in San Diego would and could still be Chargers fans if they were in LA is pretty logical. (The main caveat to this is whether resentment prevents that.)

Note also that the wording is "least disruptive," not non-disruptive. You'd have to think of the St. Louis football market as virtually nonexistent to argue that moving a team from St. Louis to Los Angeles is less disruptive than from San Diego to Los Angeles. Of course, I suspect you may well view St. Louis that way, so if that's your perspective, then so be it.

[BBTV]

I don't know about the relationship between the LA and SD markets, but using the comparison of Phi to NY, a move of STL to LA would be exactly as disruptive as a move from Phi to NY, even though it's like 90 miles away.

[Gothamite]

I haven't lived in LA for many years, but my recollection of the market is that it would be exactly as disruptive as Philadelphia to New York.

[STL FANATIC]

This is a hard one to really be able to express with any actuality. We're all trying to state the relative impacts on various markets that we don't honestly have a great deal of familiarity (each of us has one or maybe two to some degree).

But it just seems to me like it'd be hard to argue that it would be harder for a fan in San Diego to stay a fan of the team if it moved in LA than it would before of a fan in St. Louis to remain a fan if it that team moved to LA.

Doable as witnessed by the decent number of fans in St. Louis who still root for the football Cardinals and the obviously pretty good number of fans in LA who still root for the Rams (although I think that number is inflated from what it was 7 or 8 years ago due to the current circumstances). But again, this is a relatively comparison, and seems hard to argue that SD to LA is RELATIVELY more disruptive than STL to LA.

Now, it's perfectly valid to say the level of disruption shouldn't matter, but that's a different statement.

[Still MIGHTY]

Everyone seems to forget the San Diego/Los Angeles separation every time we bring this up.

It's not simply straight line distance or the difference of one market to the next. San Diego County is separated from Orange County/the Los Angeles market by Camp Pendleton, which is open space about 20 miles of coastline and 25-30 miles inland including the mountains behind it. The only connection of populated space between the two is around the back of Pendleton through Temecula/Murrieta and into Riverside. Basically saying, the people and media of San Diego have almost no penetration into the OC/LA area because there's essentially a blockade. If you live in San Diego county, you aren't commuting into Orange County or anything like that, and vice versa for the most part. Riverside County? Maybe, and I know for a fact there is San Diego sports coverage in Riverside County to an extent.

Southern California isn't a megalopolis like the Eastern corridor is. San Diego and OC/LA are broken up. There is a barrier that does separate the two. They don't flow into each other. It's not like trying to argue a separation of OC and LA or even Philly to NY. There is a definitive line of what is San Diego and what is OC/LA. Especially when it comes to sports teams. You go to San Clemente, the southernmost city in the OC/LA market right before Pendleton, and its Angels/Dodgers fans. You go down to Oceanside, the northernmost San Diego market city right before Pendleton, and its Padres fans. In the Philly/NY comparison, Pendleton would be OC/LA's New Jersey where you'd find the blend of the two markets. The closest thing to New Jersey in this would be Riverside (and man does that ring true in many instances), but Riverside isn't exactly the linchpin in any of these arguments.

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So TL;DR - There is a significant enough divide between San Diego and Los Angeles (namely Camp Pendleton) that remaining a Chargers fan in the same capacity before and after a move would be more difficult than you're giving it credit for. Unless you live in Riverside County, but if you do, my condolences.

I lived in South Orange County the large majority of my life. Pretty much equidistant between LA and San Diego. Going to San Diego always seemed that much more of a "trip" than driving to Los Angeles.

[STL FANATIC]

For what it's worth, I'm not ignoring that at all. I do appreciate the specificity of what you posted though as I'm not all that familiar with the area(s).

I'm simply arguing that it can't possibly be as big of a divide as halfway across the country divide from St. Louis to Los Angeles.

(Again, maybe you say screw it, it doesn't matter, the Rams should be the team anyways. But if the conversation is about which is a bigger disruption, I vote for the one that spans multiple time zones.)

[LMU]

Also throw in that LA is still chock full of rival Raider fans who aren't so much fans of the team but fans of the thug Raider culture from back in the day and can't seem to grasp the fact that Daddy Davis flipped them off and left and that Davis Jr. is a dweeb with so little hardcore in him that the word doesn't even show up in his browser history.

That's one of the main hang ups I see with the Carson plan... all the banking on Raider fans when most aren't the type who would be able to scratch together enough for a regular ticket let alone a PSL.

[STL FANATIC]

To that point LMU, if LA NEEDS it to be a specific team (meaning the identity/history) to succeed as an NFL market, then is it actually a good market?

My answer would be yes, it's a good market (maybe purely due to size and wealth as opposed to actual interest, but fair enough, those are huge factors), and it can therefore succeed without just pandering to the Raiders fan base we currently think of.

But if you don't believe LA would get fully behind the Raiders, then how is it that they must have a team?

[LMU]

The Raiders are just a complete joke of a franchise. Quite frankly any team but the Raiders would be welcome here by the majority of locals. I, like many Angelinos, am tired of the Davis family and the idiots who still have Raider decals on their cars (especially the ones with skulls replacing the Davis drawing). There's nothing culturally significant about a team that only was in the city for 15 or so years and is a complete laughingstock.

[rams80]

For what it's worth, I'm not ignoring that at all. I do appreciate the specificity of what you posted though as I'm not all that familiar with the area(s).

I'm simply arguing that it can't possibly be as big of a divide as halfway across the country divide from St. Louis to Los Angeles.

(Again, maybe you say screw it, it doesn't matter, the Rams should be the team anyways. But if the conversation is about which is a bigger disruption, I vote for the one that spans multiple time zones.)

Ehh...disruption for who? Certainly not the NFC West, which just had its travel mileage show a significant drop.

[ninersdd]

The Raiders are just a complete joke of a franchise. Quite frankly any team but the Raiders would be welcome here by the majority of locals. I, like many Angelinos, am tired of the Davis family and the idiots who still have Raider decals on their cars (especially the ones with skulls replacing the Davis drawing). There's nothing culturally significant about a team that only was in the city for 15 or so years and is a complete laughingstock.

But NWA though....

[The_Admiral]

Also throw in that LA is still chock full of rival Raider fans who aren't so much fans of the team but fans of the thug Raider culture from back in the day and can't seem to grasp the fact that Daddy Davis flipped them off and left and that Davis Jr. is a dweeb with so little hardcore in him that the word doesn't even show up in his browser history.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

[STL FANATIC]

For what it's worth, I'm not ignoring that at all. I do appreciate the specificity of what you posted though as I'm not all that familiar with the area(s).

I'm simply arguing that it can't possibly be as big of a divide as halfway across the country divide from St. Louis to Los Angeles.

(Again, maybe you say screw it, it doesn't matter, the Rams should be the team anyways. But if the conversation is about which is a bigger disruption, I vote for the one that spans multiple time zones.)

Ehh...disruption for who? Certainly not the NFC West, which just had its travel mileage show a significant drop.

Why is it so hard to just say "I don't think the market is satisfactory enough to worry about the disruption"? It always has to be a quip.

[Gothamite]

I think once you get over 100 miles or so, the disruption is all pretty much equal. Fans aren't driving, and you'd have to ensure that the old market gets the broadcasts to ensure they could still watch, which is exactly as easy to do for St. Louis as it is San Diego.

It would be a joke to use that as a serious criteria in determining which team is to move.

[The_Admiral]

St. Louis would probably get the Bears on Fox and the Chiefs or Colts on CBS. Most of downstate Illinois already gets the Bears. There'd probably be some Packers games in there, too, especially for the CoMO/Jeff City market.

[DaytonBlue]

Judging from the twitter NFL fan map Chiefs and Bears would be the de facto teams of the St. Louis area if the Rams leave.

Most MO counties have Chiefs as 2nd favorite team and most IL counties in area have Bears as 2nd.

I live in the far western suburbs of St. Louis and see quite a bit of Chiefs stuff on cars, etc.

Fascinating map if you haven't looked at it (a little more detailed than Facebook's version which only shows the leading team in a county)

https://interactive.twitter.com/nfl_followers2014/#?mode=team&team=all

It's also interesting that the Chargers are not most popular team in any LA counties. In LA County 49ers and Raiders most popular.

[STL FANATIC]

It was pretty evenly split as Bears and Chiefs territory before the Rams came, and I suspect indeed it would revert back to that.

[TheOldRoman]

Also throw in that LA is still chock full of rival Raider fans who aren't so much fans of the team but fans of the thug Raider culture from back in the day and can't seem to grasp the fact that Daddy Davis flipped them off and left and that Davis Jr. is a dweeb with so little hardcore in him that the word doesn't even show up in his browser history.

You say this like it's a bad thing.

I think "fan of thug Raider culture from back in the day" would go nicely under your avatar.

[STL FANATIC]

Not posting this with any agenda as it supports some of the things I say, and could be viewed as an argument against the others. But here's a great blast from the past read that seems relevant again:

St. Louis Is Game--but Are the Rams? : Sports: Officials in the much-maligned football town are pulling together to entice team away from O.C.

November 01, 1994 | Mike DiGiovanna | Los Angeles Times

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-01/ ... tball-town

It's interesting to think about how different things might be if Kroenke had either gotten the expansion team or the Patriots and moved them to St. Louis (that's mentioned in the article, I have no familiarity with that situation at all) without the necessity of the sweetheart lease.

Maybe football would be thriving in St. Louis, a new stadium would be discussed but not yet a necessity, and Kroenke would be loved rather than despised. Or maybe none of those things. Weird to think about, though.