Underreported Uniform Details

[johnnysama]

Hi, all. In this thread, let's talk about some little-noticed uniform details that aren't talked about much.

 

The Philadelphia Phillies 1970-91 uniform went through minor tweaks in its run, but here's something that hasn't gone noticed too much about it until now:
 

From 1970-81, the racing stripes on the jersey and pants did not connect with each other:

https://www.vsaauctions.com/lot-34469.aspx

 

Starting in 1982, however, they did:

https://goldinauctions.com/1982_pete_rose_game_worn_philadelphia_phillies_hom-lot14593.aspx

 

 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

Good stuff!

To stay with the Phillies, I am a little confused about when they added the baseball stitches to the middle of the P on the uniform.  That feature was always in the cap logo; but for a long while it did not appear on the uniform logo.

 

Here is a 1977 Sports Illustrated cover showing Greg Luzinski in the jersey logo without the stitches.

 

 

And here is a 1978 spring training photo showing the wacky combo of Brusstar, Garber, McGraw, and Johnstone in that uniform.

 

 

I believe that the stitches didn't go in the P on the uniform until some time in the 1980s, as we can see that the stitches are still not there in this 1982 Sports Illustrated cover...

 

 

...or in the 1983 World Series.

 

 

By the late 1980s, the stitches were there.

 

 

So, then, how to explain the picture on Steve Carlton's 1978 Topps card?

 

 

 

[MJWalker45]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

So, then, how to explain the picture on Steve Carlton's 1978 Topps card?

 

 

 

It's possible he's wearing a prototype during spring training, or it was photoshopped.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

5 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

It's possible he's wearing a prototype during spring training, or it was photoshopped.

 

There's no reason that the photo would be retouched, as Carlton had not changed teams the previous year.

 

A prototype?  It would be pretty weird for the team to experiment with that minor change and then not actually introduce it until about a decade later.
 

[MJWalker45]

Just now, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

There's no reason that the photo would be retouched, as Carlton had not changed teams the previous year.

 

A prototype?  It would be pretty weird for the team to experiment with that minor change and then not actually introduce it until about a decade later.
 

I would think so, but then again MLB and other pro sports have had mismatched uniforms on the field as recently as the 1990's. 

[BBTV]

The stitching was put back in 1987, which coincided with other changes:

 

1. zippers switching to buttons.

2. NOB switching from vertical arch to radial.

 

Also, in 1988, the pinstripes on the home jersey changed from red to maroon.  

EDIT: Also, it appears that the P changed to a solid patch in 1988 (you can see that the pinstripes show through in 87, but they're clearly behind the middle in the 88).

 

1987 game worn:

 

1988 game worn:

 

 

 

 

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

There's no reason that the photo would be retouched, as Carlton had not changed teams the previous year.

 

A prototype?  It would be pretty weird for the team to experiment with that minor change and then not actually introduce it until about a decade later.
 

 

The stitching was removed from the road jersey a few years before it was removed from the home.

 

According to this EXCELLENT site that I linked below (sorry, can't link to photos from it).

1973-74

The road jersey gets a makeover. It becomes a deeper blue, NOB are added, numbers become tackle twill, the little "baseball stitch" line in the middle of the "P" logo is gone, zippers replace buttons.

 

1975

Home jersey lettering changes to maroon tackle twill, the logo "baseball stitch" line is gone, NOB are added, and white trim is removed.

 

 

Regarding Carlton, it wouldn't be unheard of for Topps to use an older photo and not expect anyone to notice.  It also wouldn't be unheard of for Carlton to have kept an older jersey, or be issued one that they had in old stock.

 

Seriously, check this site out.  It literally captures everything, even switches from Wilson to Rawlings to... etc.   I have found one or two errors in it latter-day Phillies uniforms (extremely minor and irrelevant to his notes) but it's really a fantastic resource.

 

https://mlbcollectors.com/PHIjerseys.php

[leopard88]

If memory serves me, the jerseys didn't have the stitching initially because MLB didn't allow it.  The theory was that the stitches simulated a baseball and would be confusing to hitters.

[BBTV]

2 hours ago, leopard88 said:

If memory serves me, the jerseys didn't have the stitching initially because MLB didn't allow it.  The theory was that the stitches simulated a baseball and would be confusing to hitters.

 

They did have the stitching originally... then it was removed from the road (not home), then home, then brought back.

 

That was always my theory too - maybe someone complained  after a few seasons?  But then why would they allow the home to keep it for years after the roads lost it?  One guess would be that since many teams used different suppliers for home and road, they simply waited until they switched?  That site I linked to has all the supplier info and I'm sure this could be verified if/when there's nothing else better to do.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

3 hours ago, BBTV said:

Seriously, check this site out. ...it's really a fantastic resource

 

https://mlbcollectors.com/PHIjerseys.php

3 hours ago, BBTV said:

1973-74

...the little "baseball stitch" line in the middle of the "P" logo is gone,

 

18 minutes ago, BBTV said:

They did have the stitching originally... then it was removed from the road (not home), then home, then brought back.

 

Ah! Thank you! That clears up so much. I either did not know or else forgot that the baseball stitches were in the logo originally, as we can see from this 1972 card.

 

 

And that site is indeed wonderful.

 

So, again, thanks.

 

[johnnysama]

9 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Good stuff!

To stay with the Phillies, I am a little confused about when they added the baseball stitches to the middle of the P on the uniform.  That feature was always in the cap logo; but for a long while it did not appear on the uniform logo.

 

Here is a 1977 Sports Illustrated cover showing Greg Luzinski in the jersey logo without the stitches.

 

 

And here is a 1978 spring training photo showing the wacky combo of Brusstar, Garber, McGraw, and Johnstone in that uniform.

 

 

I believe that the stitches didn't go in the P on the uniform until some time in the 1980s, as we can see that the stitches are still not there in this 1982 Sports Illustrated cover...

 

 

...or in the 1983 World Series.

 

 

By the late 1980s, the stitches were there.

 

 

So, then, how to explain the picture on Steve Carlton's 1978 Topps card?

 

 

 

Re: Carlton's jersey: It was probably a deadstock leftover from the early 1970s. I can kind of make out the chain-stitching on the number and the P crest.

[BBTV]

Something else I just noticed - on the '88 home jersey with the maroon stripes, the stripes appear to be printed (you can't see them through the back) but on the '87 (and earlier) version, they're the woven zig-zag style.  I didn't think the Phillies switched to printed stripes until '92.

 

EDIT:

Also, I've noticed this before but never thought it was worth pointing out until now - those pre-92 jerseys didn't use a traditional raglan or set-in template.  It's a hybrid template that seems to be relatively unique.

[BBTV]

I'm spending way too much time on this, but I've been a little obsessed with that Steve Carlton card.  The card should show him in a '77 jersey.  I was able to find game worn '76 and '78 jerseys, but no luck finding any '77 home jerseys or even photos of him that are undisputedly from the '77 season.

 

Either way, if the '76 and '78 match what they should be, it's fair to assume that the '77 would as well, and that the '78 Topps card is just an old photo, and not any type of prototype or old jersey he had laying around (since he clearly had old jerseys that were twill and stichless.)

 

It's also clear that the switch coincided with the change from chainstitched Ps to twill Ps, which explains why the roads changed first, since they literally got new stock with the darker blue) and were getting them in cycles every x years, and that cycle probably got misaligned from the home cycle when they switched from grey to blue in the first place (or a switch in suppliers, which may have aligned the same way anyway).

 

Don't ever say I don't try, lol!

 

 

 

Here's a '76 game-worn Carlton jersey - NO stitch:

 

 

Here's a '78 - also NO stitch:

[johnnysama]

Moving towards another team, the Angels:

From 1973-78, the sleeve ends were a sewn-on soutache trim.

 

Starting in 1979, they became a elastic knit.

[dont care]

4 hours ago, johnnysama said:

Moving towards another team, the Angels:

From 1973-78, the sleeve ends were a sewn-on soutache trim.

 

Starting in 1979, they became a elastic knit.

Well they changed manufacturers to wilson, and that was the style at the time so it makes sense they made the switch

[johnnysama]

Turning to the NFL:
Around 1983/84, some Buffalo Bills players (linemen, mostly) cut off the bottom stripe of their jerseys:

https://www.greyflannelauctions.com/lot-17273.aspx

 

While some players would keep the full two-stripe pattern, gradually, as the 1980s continued, the one-stripe jersey became standard, but it wasn't fully phased out when, I believe, Scott Norwood, the last two-stripe holdout left the team after 1991:

[Discrim]

A similar thing happened to the Packers' stripes, where players increasingly had the bottom two stripes cut off until they officially reduced the pattern from five stripes to three in 1997, as illustrated by Reggie White

1993-full striping still there, but truncated

1996

Favre for comparison

1997

[johnnysama]

Not sure whether it counts now, but from 1968-96, the Pittsburgh Steelers positioned their TV numbers halfway through the sleeve and shoulder pad.

[johnnysama]

From 1980-88, the New York Giants used 5" TV numbers (as opposed to the standard 4") on their jerseys:

 - 1981

 

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/wp-content/uploads/giants-pit-12_21_85.jpg - 1985

 

By 1989, and continuing until the end of this uniform run's set in 1999, they shrank back to the standard 4": - 1989

 

[Old School Fool]

When the NFL first put the logo on the neck of the jerseys in 1991 the Bears had it below the collar and not at the neck because their jerseys had a round t-shirt collar. It was only like this for maybe a couple years.