Message from Paul Lukas of UniWatch

[DEAD!]

just a reminder, that if you would like to talk to Paul about anything about this, you can email him at the address posted at the end of my original post.....he is not a member on these boards yet but maybe if someone wants to be nice they could see if he has interest in joining

You heard the man, let's wine and dine this guy into the community

Well, I suggest you give him an invite yourself first. After all, your name is at the top of every page

[slapshot]

I'm putting this in as a "mea culpa" (wrong choice of words maybe?) in regards to my previous post.

I couldn't find the reference in Lukas' article to this board. I may have confused him with Frank Easterbrook, A.K.A. "Tuesday Morning Quarterback". Lukas posted a link to the SSUR, but it was just to show a picture of the Grizzlies logo, nothing more.

And the more I re-read his columns, I guess I'm the ignorant one. Constant references requesting the removal of purple from all professional sports, I guess you can't take him too seriously.

[Brian in Boston]

So when Mr. Lukas writes the article about the future Washington team's logo and uniforms, it did not come across as tongue-in-cheek. He came across as ESPN's resident fashion critique, more or less. And when he mentioned this board and community, it certainly didn't do it to further a joke.

jpslapshot...

It's not an article... it's a column, and therein is the difference.

A column lays no claim to being anything more than the columnist's opinion. Period. Even if the columnist solicits submissions - in this case, logo/uniform designs - of other people, he is under no obligation to do anything more than comment on these submissions utilizing his standards of judgement. Given the fact that the written piece in question is a column, it is incumbent upon the reader to recognize the nature of the piece... and submit his/her work accordingly.

Overall, Mr. Lukas' pieces (for a variety of oulets, including The Village Voice, slate.com and ESPN.com) have always had a whimsical feel to them, and this column was certainly no different. He has never claimed to have any formal training in either fashion or graphic design. His take on sports uniforms and logos are based upon his personal opinion; anyone who has read his column knows this. What's more, most often the opinions he expresses are based upon a very satirical take on the world of sports.

As for claiming that Mr. Lukas pulled a "bait and switch", that's going a bit too far. Mr. Lukas asked readers for uniform and logo submissions. Nobody was required to send any logos or uniform designs in. It was completely voluntary. Nothing more, nothing less. Readers submitted designs. Mr. Lukas then wrote a subsequent column selecting what he felt were the best designs in a number of categories. His choices based on his criteria and his taste. Nothing more, nothing less.

Suggesting that Mr. Lukas selected the "worst of the bunch" of the logo designs that were submitted, says much more about your opinion and personal biases than it does about Mr. Lukas' goal in writing the column. When you imply that you believe that his "contest" (your parentheses, not mine) was a joke, you say much more about your opinion and personal biases than about Mr. Lukas' mindset while writing the column.

Given your "mea culpa", I think that you've come to these conclusions as well.

Bottom line? Even though we think that we're the brightest, most talented and discerning bunch of sports logo "enthusiasts" in the world, we're really just a bunch of geeks expressing our opinions. Yes, some of us are tremendously talented artists. However, at the end of the day our opinion is no more - or less - valid than Paul Lukas'.

The difference is, Paul's figured out a way to get paid for it. More power to him.

[DEAD!]

I almost forgot, one of the designs that Paul pick was done by a member of Fanhome. Go figure

http://mb11.scout.com/ffanhomefrm17.showMe...icID=4165.topic

[paynomind]

In that opinion is as protected as an endangered Chiricahua Leopard Frog, here is mine;

The submissions that Mr Lukas displayed in his column were poorly done, gimmicy, and not exceptionally creative. Thusly it is my opinion that Mr. Lukas' tastes vary so severely with my own, that I believe there MUST have been more artistic, inventive, creative, less-kindergarten-esque submissions he could have chosen to feature, and thereby his taste does not match my own, thereby I do not appreciate his sence of style, substance, unforms, and logos.

[Brian in Boston]

In that opinion is as protected as an endangered Chiricahua Leopard Frog, here is mine;

The submissions that Mr Lukas displayed in his column were poorly done, gimmicy, and not exceptionally creative. Thusly it is my opinion that Mr. Lukas' tastes vary so severely with my own, that I believe there MUST have been more artistic, inventive, creative, less-kindergarten-esque submissions he could have chosen to feature, and thereby his taste does not match my own, thereby I do not appreciate his sence of style, substance, unforms, and logos.

Well, that's terrific paynomind.

From now on, given the severe differences in opinion that you two seem to have, I'd suggest ignoring Mr. Lukas' column.

Beyond that, you could contact ESPN.com and see whether or not they'd like you to take over Mr. Lukas' column. After all, given the fact that your taste in sports uniform and logo design must outstrip his own, they'd probably fall all over themselves to hire you. I mean, your contributions to such outlets as the threads in this community exhibit the sort of talent that ESPN would be looking for. Who knows... they might even hire you as a SportsCenter co-anchor. I can't imagine that they'd want to leave your intelligence, wit and personality languishing in an internet column. Then, if you play your cards right, you could pull a Keith Olbermann or Craig Kilborn and jump to a more all-encompassing format than a simple sports highlight show. Before you know it, you'd be an entertainment superstar. The world would hang on your every word, waiting to consume whatever kernel of wit or wisdom you were prepared to share with the unwashed masses.

I'd get in touch with them right away. You shouldn't let this opportunity pass you by.

Seriously.

[yh]

Personally, I believe that we should round up a group and go to Lukas's place of employment, shout epithets at him and throw beer and other assorted objects at him.

Perhaps I've been watching a bit too much NBA basketball lately.

But seriously, Uni Watch is just an editorial piece representing one man's opinion. I should note that I too was disappointed that none of the concepts submitted by our community members made the big show and frankly I was unimpressed by most of the concepts that did make it (regardless of their level of professional finish). That being said, it's Lukas's column and his choices are just that - his choices, so those are the ones that get the glory.

Now, I can understand his being somewhat miffed that he's being verbally shish-kebabed (I really shouldn't have skipped lunch today) on these boards, but only to an extent. The name calling and pejorative statements are rather juvenile when used in the context of trying to advance (or denigrate) one person's artistic opinion and taste. However he shouldn't make too big of a deal about those who used this forum to air their grievances as opposed to contacting him directly. Frankly, and perhaps I'm just naive here, I would think that a columnist for a website like espn.com would be bombarded with email and wouldn't have time to give meaningful thought to everything that hits his inbox.

As far as any expectation that Mr. Lukas will use this episode as an opportunity to become a participant in any of our community discussions, I would have my doubts. After all, this guy gets paid to share his opinions about sports design - I highly doubt he'd be very willing to "give away the store" by becoming a poster at CCSLC. That being said, it would be nice to hear from him on issues that he might not otherwise address in his column.

[Sterling84]

I mean, these examples run the gamut from name-calling and insults (moron... clown... on crack) to an indication that members of our community have no idea what writing an opinion column entails or that Mr. Lukas has never claimed to be a professionally-trained designer.

Paul Lukas writes columns based on his opinions about a variety of pop-culture phenomenons, including sports uniform and logo design. He's never made any claim that his opinions seek to speak for the greater sports logo design - or, enthusiast - communities. He's never claimed to have a "trained" eye with regard to offering up judgement on sports uniforms or logos. He writes columns based on his personal opinion... which is precisely what his employers want him to do. If ESPN wanted a piece written on the professional merits of a particular sports logo design, they'd assign a reporter to research and write a piece on said logo design. Whether any member of this community possesses the requisite skill-set necessary to produce either well-written columns or news articles about sports logo/uniform design on a regular basis... under deadline... in a grammatically-correct form is open to considerable debate.

Bottom line? If I were in Paul's shoes, I probably would have ignored the sniping and back-biting emanating from the CCSLB. That said, given the nature of the sniping and back-biting (i.e. insults and generally uninformed commentary), I can understand why he did respond. At the end of the day, the guy's a professional and he took offense to being $hit all over about the content of a column on sports logo/uniform design.

Yeah, totally. Not disagreeing with you. I just think we're dancing around two entirely separate issues.

1) Do we have room for improvement if we really do actually desire to consistently act like the thoughtful, informed forum I said we were? Yup. Lots.

2) Should Mr. Lukas have the right to expect that? First, it's the internet. 80% of what's on the web is pointless/hateful or both. Second, he's got one of the 2% of the jobs that puts his work in the public eye. These are his choices. Well, not the web in general thing. But the career thing. I imagine most public figures could google their own name, and find enough bile about them online to cause them to cry for 40 hours straight. Do we owe it to humanity to always take the high road and never lambast anyone? Not even for, dare I say fun? I can't answer that question. I think I try to be nice most the time......but certainly not all of the time. I just can't imagine who would wander into the www.orld and be aghast of all the negative feedback. Let's just say the "if you can't say anything nice" principle doesn't exactly translate to HTML.

I don't see GMs posting here when we rip on their stupid trades. I don't see actors here when we say their movies suck. George W and JFK v2.0 didn't post here when we got real personal during the campaign. And I don't see fast food executives posting thanks as we laud the new 1400 calorie burger or the Caramel Empanada. Sometimes it feels like we're only a couple dozen guys with common interests sharing a diary.......and that nobody else really cares what we say. And then, on days like today you are shocked into the realization the whole world can read what you wrote. It's really weird, and I think sociologically its part of what makes the internet such a strange communication tool and what makes forums, chatrooms, and the like so filled with posturing and anger. It?s a (seemingly) consequence-free form of speech that is so un-like all other forms of inter-personal communication that it leaves us wanting for a uniform etiquette.

Now, I realized, I've just postulated the "Everybody's doing it" validation for ?our? behavior, and there isn't a sadder act on the planet than sinking to the lowest common denominator.

But I don't think we've gone quite over that edge yet. Ever read like imdb forums? They are like profane alphabet soup. I think we?ve got a pretty nice place here, e-dust bunnies and all.

I?m not arguing any of your points. When you?re right you?re right. I?m just like, ?Dude, we said you suck. Who cares? I suck too.?

And for what it?s worth, I can see someone getting confused and feeling baited and/or switched. He said he?d send them all in to MLB. Somebody probably took that as an actual opportunity. That?s their own problem, but I can definitely see how it could happen.

[Mings]

I think we might be starting to miss the point...."Opinions are like @$$holes, everybody has one". I also think Mr. Lukas could be a valuable addition to this community to possibly get people such as Sterling, Nitroseed, AAO, Eddie, Gordie, and others (hopefully myself included, if my concepts are good enough) out into the world and known.

[Brian in Boston]

And for what it?s worth, I can see someone getting confused and feeling baited and/or switched.  He said he?d send them all in to MLB.  Somebody probably took that as an actual opportunity.  That?s their own problem, but I can definitely see how it could happen.

Look, if anyone has spent any amount of time following the sports branding industry, particularly at the major league level, then they should know that they have zero chance of having their logo submissions looked at and/or accepted by said major leagues as aprt of an unsolicited submission. Given that the only "solicited" submission in this contest was on the part of Mr. Lukas, there was absolutely no chance that MLB was going to take any of these concepts seriously. If they want to live in a "fantasy land", then that's their business. However, to use that as the basis to lambaste Paul Lukas because he gave the impression that he'd forward contest submissions to MLB (or, out and out said that he would) is being naive at best.

[Brian in Boston]

I also think Mr. Lukas could be a valuable addition to this community to possibly get people such as Sterling, Nitroseed, AAO, Eddie, Gordie, and others (hopefully myself included, if my concepts are good enough) out into the world and known.

With all due respect, given your assertion that "opinions are like a$$holes", why is Mr. Lukas going to be any more capable of gaining notoriety for the CCSLB's designers than they can be themselves? He's a columnist; he writes about designs he likes. However, the designers actually do the creating.

They're much better off creating a portfolio, submitting that portfolio to the likes of Joe Bosack, Dan Simon, etc. for a critique, incorporating any advice the aforementioned design pros might give them, then shipping it to the offices of individual sports leagues and franchises (or design firms that deal with sports clientsd) with a cover letter offering up their services for future design projects. If the work is impressive enough, they'll get a call - sometime, somewhere.

Lukas would serve no purpose, other than creating another layer of interference between the designers and their ultimate clientele.

[Mings]

I said that about opinions, because everyone has one. Say he likes one of our designs, and puts it in his column. That gets the word out for a particular designer. I for one value everyones opinion, because it is that, an opinion. The more opinions we have on a board, the better all of us can become as designers.

[paynomind]

Speaking of being naive at best, what part of OPINION and the difference thereof did you miss, BiB?

I restated what I had to say, in a very inoffensive manner.

*I* didn't enjoy any of the concepts he posted. *I* think that the world can do better. *I* believe there were stuff that I would have liked more in his inbox. *I* don?t think my taste is the same as his.

What part of your self-righteous diatribe did that violate?

Opinion. He has a right to his, I have a right to mine.

We do NOT have an obligation to brown-nose, hold back, or straight out lie to someone simply because their article is based on opinion. That is the meaning of the word debate: to discuss differing opinion. If he loves em, he will say he loves em. If I hate em, i'll say I hate em. Woohoo. And thusly conversation is born.

Should we call people clowns and morons? Who cares. Anyone thin-skinned enough to get offended by that should go hide in their basement.

Just like anyone offended that folks would post there opinion in their online community should go away, too.

[Brian in Boston]

Again, though... even if the logo were included in one of his columns, that may well be an indication to a potential client that the designer in question isn't "professional" enough to enter into a relationship with. It would raise questions as to why the sports branding/graphic design firm in question had to drum up notice for itself through an internet column.

Most major-pro sports entities looking for help with branding are going to be more impressed with a designer approaching them with as professional a presentation as possible, i.e. a well-developed portfolio displaying as wide a variety of their designs as possible. If you're like Sterling, it certainly helps that you've already got a logo being used by a team. However, if you haven't made your first sale, then you simply have to give a client an indication of just how developed your talents are and just how varied your approach to solving branding problems can be. You're not going to give a client a realistic look at how you measure up in that area by being featured in Paul Lukas' column.

[Sterling84]

Look, if anyone has spent any amount of time following the sports branding industry, particularly at the major league level, then they should know that they have zero chance of having their logo submissions looked at and/or accepted by said major leagues as aprt of an unsolicited submission. Given that the only "solicited" submission in this contest was on the part of Mr. Lukas, there was absolutely no chance that MLB was going to take any of these concepts seriously. If they want to live in a "fantasy land", then that's their business. However, to use that as the basis to lambaste Paul Lukas because he gave the impression that he'd forward contest submissions to MLB (or, out and out said that he would) is being naive at best.

Yup. Yup and yup. Once again, I agree with you. But some of the guys we have here haven?t been around that long. There are new members all the time. We just even had one pose the ?should we close the forums? question again. Maybe they don?t know the industry. I was just thinking, if some guy doesn?t know he?s got a snowball?s chance with MLB??.

That?s all.

I guess I?m kinda done on this topic. My final thought on it is this. Lets say we?re awful people. (And I don?t think we are). And let?s say we?re Pistons fans, and we metaphorically chucked our soda cup of insults at this guy and hit him in the head. If he reacts to us, my metaphorically jumping in our stands with a nastygram. If he reacts by doing anything other than pointing us out to security or ignoring us. If he reacts to us period.. He?s already lost, no matter who?s right.

I don?t think he should have cared, and I certainly don?t think he should have asked Astrobull to post his thoughts for him.

Anyway, on to happier things.

???on my way to Alabama for Thanksgiving with my Pops. Much love and thanks to you all and your families. Have a great holiday!

Thanks guys

[Brian in Boston]

paynomind...

You're entirely missing my point. I completely concur with your right to hold and state your opinions. What's more, I'm really intrigued - and entertained - by the way in which you do so.

Which is why I was urging you to contact ESPN.com about taking over Paul Lukas' column, Uni Watch. It's obvious that his taste with regard to what constitutes quality sports logo/uniform design is lacking when compared to your own. What's more, anyone who has followed your posting history here in the CCSL community can attest to the fact that your contributions to these boards are always intelligent, well-reasoned, witty and meticulously-crafted pieces of - dare I say it? - internet literature. They are so much more than simple "posts to threads".

Now, given what seem to be differences that you may have with me, I fear that you will simply dismiss my career advice out of hand. I couldn't be more emphatic in my directive to you: contact ESPN.com... today. Having worked as a journalist, a broadcaster and an entertainer, I can assure you that you are the "real deal".

You owe it to yourself to take advantage of the opportunities that life places in front of you. Doing anything less is selfish. Please, don't make that mistake.

Best of luck.

[Shmee]

Sometimes I think that people take what gets said here either the wrong way or much too seriously, especially those who are not members of the community. For example, Joe Kolodziej freaked out when he discovered that a small group of sports enthusiasts might be able to help topple his criminal empire (turns out, he did it without our help). Now, here I see a published and I assume (in other places at least), a well-respected writer. However, replying to messages posted on a message board without even taking the time to join and directly respond to the members turns me off from this guy even more than his bad taste (and oh yes, that was an opinion. I think Paul Lukas has bad taste).

Also, if you're so worried about what paynomind or any other member thinks of someone else's taste or tendency to keep his word, get over yourself.

[GMac]

Payno and BiB... dont make me seperate you 2 or close this topic cuz you 2 cant be mature on this subject....

Simple facts...

1) Did I agree with Lukas choices, nope

2) Do I think he has a right to his opinion, yes

3) Do we have a right to disagree with his choices, yes

4) Do we have to censor what we say cuz it insulted him, no...

though I wouldnt try to slander the guy, but he does need a thicker skin apparently... Im sure people have said much worse about him in some forum in some far reaches of the internet, unfortunately thats what happens when you become a public figure... you have to accept the fact that someone at some point will get on their soapbox and make a fool out of ya... its life... it happens believe me i know..

5) If opinion are like a--holes is too hard core may i suggest bellybuttons we all have those... well excpet alfred hitchcock...

[swisherHOU]

BTW, I wrote Paul an e-mail and he responded thirty minutes later. Very nice guy.

[rtrich11]

Are any of y'all going to seek out his next column? Myself, I dunno. I mean, besides looking to see "what's he up to now?!", will you look forward to it?