Las Vegas or Charlotte MLB uni challenge

[OMMF]

A COUPLE THINGS, EARLIER IN THIS POST, SOMEONE SAID EARLIER IN THIS POST THAT SEATTLE ISNT DESERVING OF A TEAM. ONCE SEATTLE HAD THE BEST SEASON IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL'S 100+ YEAR HISTORY SAFECO SOLD OUT EVERY GAME FOR ABOUT 2 YEARS. THEY HAD THE HIGHEST ATTENDANCE BY FAR. I THINK BREMERTON, WA (HICK TOWN IN THE WOODS 20 MILES W OF SEATTLE, HOME OF THE BLUEJACKETS OF THE WCCBL) COULD BE A BASEBALL TOWN IF WE HAD A WORLD SERIES QUALITY TEAM YEAR AFTER YEAR. IT'S THE PLAYERS, THE TEAM, NOT THE CITY.

ALSO, I HATE THE IDEA ABOUT THE DEMOTED MAJOR LEAGUE TEAMS BEING REPLACED BY 2 MINOR TEAMS IN EACH LEAGUE. I GO TO PLENTY TACOMA RAINIERS GAMES AND THAT STADIUM IS JUST TOO SMALL FOR MLB PLAY. IT HOLDS MAYBE 4K. ALSO THE TAMPA BAY DEVIL RAYS COULD ANAILATE THE RAINIERS 99/100 GAMES. SO THE DEMOTED MLB TEAM WOULD DOMINATE THE MINORS, AND THE MILB TEAM WILL BE BULLIED IN THE MAJORS. WHO WANTS TO WATCH THEIR SMALL TOWN BALLCLUB GET SMASHED BY THE RAYS ANYWAY?

Look how loud I have to yell! -Homer

The caps lock button also works in the off position, too.

Bremerton, by the way, is not in the woods. It's right off the entrance to Rich Passage and is home to a bustling US Navy operation. Hard to do that when you are surrounded by trees, isn't it?

[TwoRsAndTwoLs]

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd watch a Tacoma Rainiers/Devil Rays series... although now it seems that most of the real good talent from Tacoma is up with the big club aside from Felix Hernandez and maybe Shin-Soo Choo. Give Snelling, Lopez, and Morse back to Tacoma and I'd like to see a Rainiers/Mariners series.

And if you want to talk about Seattle being a baseball town, maybe some old school PCL stuff should be brought out... Seattle Rainiers and all that. They won a few championships, if I recall correctly. I also think the M's are drawing really well considering how badly they've been this year and last.

But I digress.

[Robert Snyder]

I'll throw out a 28 team senario following contraction and moves.... Some moves are made to get teams in better timezone situations, or travel, or divisional play. Two things that has irked me about the current division setup is that the Pirates and Phillies got separated. They have a HISTORY of playing against each other and that was thrown away 10 years ago. I correct that. Plus, Texas needs to be in the Central division, not the West. Under the current alignment that has hurt their franchise. Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries. Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

AMERICAN LEAGUE

EAST

NYY

BOS

BAL

Trenton, NJ or Brooklyn (Formerly Toronto-- Tampa Bay contracted)

DET

CENTRAL

CWS

MIN

CLE

KC

TEX

WEST

LAA

OAK or if they move (Portland or San Jose)

SEA

LV (formerly Florida Marlins)

NATIONAL LEAGUE

EAST

ATL

WAS

NYM

PIT

PHI

CENTRAL

HOU

CIN

CHI

STL

MIL

WEST

LAD

SD

SF

AZ (Colorado contracted)

---------------------------------

Here's a second 32 team Fantasy senario with 4 teams a divison

AMERICAN LEAGUE

EAST

NYY

BOS

TOR

BAL

MIDWEST

DET

CLE

MIN

CWS

CENTRAL

KC

TEX

New Orleans (formerly Tampa Bay)

COL (switches leagues)

WEST

LAA

SEA

OAK (or if they move-- Portland or San Jose)

Las Vegas (expansion)

NATIONAL LEAGUE

EAST

Brooklyn or New Jersey (formerly Florida)

NYM

PIT

PHIL

SOUTH

ATL

Charlotte (expansion)

WAS

HOU

MIDWEST

MIL

CHI

CIN

STL

WEST

LAD

SF

SD

AZ

[The_Admiral]

Baltimore Orioles

Charlotte SkyHawks

Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Texas Rangers

New York Mets

Philadelphia Phillies

Pittsburgh Pirates

Washington Nationals

North

Chicago Cubs

Colorado Rockies

Milwaukee Brewers

St. Louis Cardinals

South

Atlanta Braves

Cincinnati Reds (considering Cincinnati, OH, is on the Ohio-Kentucky border)

Florida Marlins

Houston Astros

West

Arizona Diamondbacks

Los Angeles Dodgers

San Diego Padres

San Francisco Giants

This could work!

Atlanta is completely removed from its biggest rival, the New York Mets. Strong work.

Baltimore got put on the scrap heap. Orioles fans would love it because it's a total walkover to beat the Rays, Rangers, and expansion team, but that division is a scrap heap. Which you get when you have too many divisions. See also: NFC South.

The Reds and Astros are removed from the Cubs and Cardinals. I know Cincinnati on the border with Kentucky, but Kentucky isn't even really the South, from a cultural standpoint. And all that aside, the Reds, the Oldest Team In Baseball, should be with other old teams that it's been playing for over a century, like the Cubs, Cardinals, and Pirates. Not the Marlins.

Why is Colorado with the Midwest? St. Louis is at the other end of Illinois and across the river, Milwaukee is two hours from Chicago, Denver is...not?

These eight-division things just don't work. They really don't. Too many compromises and stupid moves. Adding two teams to the AL and preserving six divisions is the minimally invasive way to expand baseball. Like so.

AL West

Los Angeles, Oakland, Seattle, Texas, Portland

AL Central

Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Minnesota, Kansas City, Toronto

AL East

New York, Boston, Baltimore, Charlotte, Tampa Bay

NL West

same

NL Central

same

NL East

same

Easy.

[The_Admiral]

Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries. Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

"Touch 'em all, Joe!"

[The_Admiral]

I think cities that blindly support their baseball team, no matter how well the team does year after year, is, frankly, stupid.

If an owner (like the Tribune Company) cannot put a winning team on the field every year, with the market size and fan support they have, they deseve to be punished at the turnstyle. Ballpark attendance is a way for fans to vote for how their team is doing. Why should the Tribune Co. care about fielding a good team if the idiot fans don't care themselves?

Watch it.

[Skull Position]

I love how everyone is in such a hurry to contract the Rays, as if it's the area's or fan's fault.

Let me tell you what they suffer from... the same thing the Bucs did for so many years...crummy ownership. Naimoli has a stranglehold on everything and makes it virtually impossible to field a decent team. As in the case of Culverhouse...if Vince leaves, we have a team. If we field a good team? People will buy tickets. The Thunderdome...ahem...TheTrop? Yeah a big mistake and poor foresight on the part of Rick Dodge and the St Pete City Council...definitely shouldve built a stadium on the waterfront ala Al Lang Stadium or in Tampa next to RayJay. Be that as it may, it makes me sick that so many are willing to execute MY ballteam. MLB Wants the market and they NEED the market, The Grapefruit League has been proof of that for years. The Bucs and Lightning survived the lean years....hopefully the Rays will do the same. The area can support a team. What we cant support is a moneygrubbing, greedy bastard who doesnt give a :censored: about Tampa Bay or it's people. Give us new ownership and we'll give the rest of MLB a run for their money....LEAVE MY TEAM ALONE.

[The_Admiral]

^guy is right y'know.

[ltravisjr]

Personally, I think having eight divisions is really getting to be too much. I would have a hard time remembering which team is in which division. I would make it simpler:

Go back two two divisions in each league and have the top two teams in each division advance to the divisional playoffs. The team that wins the division gets home field advantage for that series.

LT

[Blackjack76]

I love how everyone is in such a hurry to contract the Rays, as if it's the area's or fan's fault.

Let me tell you what they suffer from... the same thing the Bucs did for so many years...crummy ownership. Naimoli has a stranglehold on everything and makes it virtually impossible to field a decent team. As in the case of Culverhouse...if Vince leaves, we have a team. If we field a good team? People will buy tickets. The Thunderdome...ahem...TheTrop? Yeah a big mistake and poor foresight on the part of Rick Dodge and the St Pete City Council...definitely shouldve built a stadium on the waterfront ala Al Lang Stadium or in Tampa next to RayJay. Be that as it may, it makes me sick that so many are willing to execute MY ballteam. MLB Wants the market and they NEED the market, The Grapefruit League has been proof of that for years. The Bucs and Lightning survived the lean years....hopefully the Rays will do the same. The area can support a team. What we cant support is a moneygrubbing, greedy bastard who doesnt give a :censored: about Tampa Bay or it's people. Give us new ownership and we'll give the rest of MLB a run for their money....LEAVE MY TEAM ALONE.

As a former Tampa resident (Bloomingdale High School class o' '95), I lived through the Tampa Bay Mariners...oops...Tampa Bay Giants...oops...Tampa Bay White Sox...oops....For years Tampa Bay was the bait for other teams to relocate. And the only way they could make the switch was if a stadium was ready to go at the drop of a hat. What Dodge and Co. had to do was put up a stadium and quick...and now D-Rays fans are paying the price.

IMHO, the D-Rays should have had a retractable ballpark in the Channelside District between the Aquarium and the Ice Palace.

But I digress....

[Epiphanic]

Since this thread has turned into a debate on the alignment and structure of the MLB, I'll throw in my two cents in the well. I also apologize in advance for repeating anything that may have been said in earlier posts.

In reality I see a very slim chance that the MLB will have 30 teams. If you think about it that's alot. Sure the NFL has 32, but the NFL doesn't have a minor league system. At least not one in North America if you are persuaded to argue that the NFL Europe is a minor league. Expansion is not gonna happen.

Although contraction sounds nice to help baseball financially, I'm opposed to that too. As we saw with the fiasco with Montreal and Minnesota. If it was all about money, small market teams would be the first on the chopping block resulting in a coastal MLB. 'Cause we all know that the Midwest is still frontier country (note sarcasm, I'm from Minnesota). Come on, who doesn't like seeing a small market team like Minnesota do well? The Nationals are kicking butt in the N.L. too. Keep in mind that the Nationals are the Expos but with fan support and money flowing INTO the organization. Had Montreal supported the team we probably wouldn't have this conversation.

Back to expansion, 32 teams is a nightmare. If you have 4 divisions/league there is no more wild card. Look at baseball today, in September the divisional races are usually wrapped up and fans are still interested because there is that 4th spot still open. The Wild Card is too important to throw away. And a 6-team NFL style playoffs is not the answer either.

I love unbalanced scheduling. Teams should play their division more and balance the rest between the rest of the league. I also dislike interleague play. When it first came out, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. But I think it ruins the luster of the World Series. What makes the World Series special? The fact that these two teams have never played each other in the season. People argue that it ruins rivalries like Yankees-Mets, Cubs-White Sox, San Fran-Oakland. No. If MLB is set on interleague play they might as well make the leagues into conferences and have every team play every other team. Which I think is a retarded idea.

I probably missed something and this is more of a rant than logical arguing. But here it was and everybody is 2 cents richer.

P.S. the Las Vegas concept is cool.

[B-Rich]

  .....but that division is a scrap heap. Which you get when you have too many divisions. See also: NFC South.

Umm, I don't think so. Hmmm... let's see:

2002, 1st year of NFC South-- Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Super Bowl Champions

2003, 2nd year of NFC South -- Carolina Panthers, NFC representative in Super Bowl

2004, 3rd year of NFC South -- Atlanta Falcons, in NFC Championship game.

Well a downward trend, but still pretty impressive. A look at the records:

2002 season:

Tampa Bay 12 4 0 0.750

Atlanta 9 6 1 0.594

New Orleans 9 7 0 0.562

Carolina 7 9 0 0.438

2003 Season:

Carolina 11 5 0 0.688

New Orleans 8 8 0 0.500

Tampa Bay 7 9 0 0.438

Atlanta 5 11 0 0.312

2004 Season:

Atlanta 11 5 0 0.688

New Orleans 8 8 0 0.500

Carolina 7 9 0 0.438

Tampa Bay 5 11 0 0.312

Slightly above average as a division when you comapre to everyone else. Heck, you want a scrap heap, look at last season's NFC east (the Iggles, then everyone else at 6-10).

[ltravisjr]

I love unbalanced scheduling. Teams should play their division more and balance the rest between the rest of the league. I also dislike interleague play. When it first came out, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. But I think it ruins the luster of the World Series. What makes the World Series special? The fact that these two teams have never played each other in the season. People argue that it ruins rivalries like Yankees-Mets, Cubs-White Sox, San Fran-Oakland. No. If MLB is set on interleague play they might as well make the leagues into conferences and have every team play every other team. Which I think is a retarded idea.

I know I am in the minority here, but I have to go on record as being opposed to unbalanced scheduling - especially as it applies to interleague play. The interleague schedule is unbalanced because of the "local rivalry" series that remain constant every year. This means, for instance, that the Mets always have to play the Yankees six times a year while the other teams in their division may get cupcakes every year. Similarly, I don't think the Cubs are thrilled to have to play the White Sox every year while the Cardinals always get KC at the same time. The rivalries are great, I don't like the unfairness of it at all.

The unbalanced schedule is unfair also, although to a lesser degree - when you consider the wildcard race. Every team competes for the same wildcard spot, but some may have it harder or easier depending on the strength of their division that year.

LT

[Gothamite]

I love how everyone is in such a hurry to contract the Rays, as if it's the area's or fan's fault.

Let me tell you what they suffer from... the same thing the Bucs did for so many years...crummy ownership. Naimoli has a stranglehold on everything and makes it virtually impossible to field a decent team. As in the case of Culverhouse...if Vince leaves, we have a team. If we field a good team? People will buy tickets. The Thunderdome...ahem...TheTrop? Yeah a big mistake and poor foresight on the part of Rick Dodge and the St Pete City Council...definitely shouldve built a stadium on the waterfront ala Al Lang Stadium or in Tampa next to RayJay. Be that as it may, it makes me sick that so many are willing to execute MY ballteam. MLB Wants the market and they NEED the market, The Grapefruit League has been proof of that for years. The Bucs and Lightning survived the lean years....hopefully the Rays will do the same. The area can support a team. What we cant support is a moneygrubbing, greedy bastard who doesnt give a :censored: about Tampa Bay or it's people. Give us new ownership and we'll give the rest of MLB a run for their money....LEAVE MY TEAM ALONE.

Nope.

Tampa couldn't sell out more than one game its entire first season. It took six seasons to get the next sellout. That's before the lousy finishes, before the disenchantment with ownership.

That's a lousy market, plain and simple. Even teams with crummy ownership draw better than that.

It's an emerging market. Those make for lousy baseball cities. Too many fans have an allegiance to another franchise first and foremost.

MLB doesn't "need" the market. What could Tampa possibly bring that MLB "needs"?

[Gary]

MLB doesn't "need" the market. What could Tampa possibly bring that MLB "needs"?

The best Strippers MLB Players can sleep with

[IceCap]

Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries. Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

so you get rid of the jays, but then say that anyone who has won the a world series can stay? who won the world series in 1992 and 1993?

[dgnmrwrw]

Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries.  Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

so you get rid of the jays, but then say that anyone who has won the a world series can stay? who won the world series in 1992 and 1993?

Yeah, I don't see any way Toronto could ever move.

[Robert Snyder]

Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries.  Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

so you get rid of the jays, but then say that anyone who has won the a world series can stay? who won the world series in 1992 and 1993?

Yes, I realize my error in reasoning...... It was late at night..... Either way, I don't think Canadian teams can have a long term future in American sports.

[IceCap]

Toronto can't stay in the MLB, they will move.... IMO, there can't be any foreign teams because of economic differences between countries.  Finally if a franchise has won a World Series, they get to stay.

so you get rid of the jays, but then say that anyone who has won the a world series can stay? who won the world series in 1992 and 1993?

Yes, I realize my error in reasoning...... It was late at night..... Either way, I don't think Canadian teams can have a long term future in American sports.

oh, so because baseball is "america' game" the jays should leave?

by that logic all the american nhl teams should fold because hockey is "canada's game." see how stupid that sounds? listen, the jays may be an average/below average team now, but they have won two world championships, two al championships, and have won their division five times. they have had more success in their 28 years of excistence then some older american teams.

if you as a baseball fan hates the jays, fine. take confert that the franchise is going throuh some rough times. but when the team starts winning again, just accept that fact that they are here to stay.

[The_Admiral]

  .....but that division is a scrap heap. Which you get when you have too many divisions. See also: NFC South.

Umm, I don't think so. Hmmm... let's see:

(numbers and crap)

What I meant was, you have the NFC East with its famous Giants-Redskins-Eagles-Cowboys rivalry, you have the NFC Central-now-North with the Bears, Lions, Packers, Vikings all having fierce rivalries with each other, but the NFC South is composed of the Buccaneers, who didn't fit in the Central, the Panthers and Falcons, who didn't belong in the West, and the Saints, who probably don't belong in New Orleans anymore. When you add a division, you have to take teams out of old ones, of course, and generally when you do this, you put a motley assortment of teams with no real history together, which is even worse than Tampa Bay being stuck with the Midwestern teams.

So let's see:

AL South

Baltimore Orioles

Charlotte SkyHawks

Tampa Bay Devil Rays

Texas Rangers

Baltimore, though south of the Mason-Dixon, and possessing one weird variation on the southern accent, is still not quite a southern town. It's about as culturally connected to the South these days as the District and Delaware. Baltimore's biggest rivals are the Yankees and the Red Sox, from two other Atlantic cities. Neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox are to be found here. When you consider that these teams generally bring out the best in the Orioles (look no further than 2004, when the O's were Sock-Killers all year), and bring out the biggest crowds, this is A Bad Thing.

Tampa Bay has a similar problem. Though at least the Orioles are joining them, their attendance numbers would take an asskicking when the Bombers don't come to town so often. They're the only team that draws in St. Petersburg. The "Charlotte SkyHawks" would not be an adequate replacement in a city that prefers the Yankees anyway.

The Rangers would suffer to a lesser degree. Even though Dallas's placement with Seattle, Los Angeles, and Oakland seems a little strange as it's a long way from the Pacific coast, it's been established long enough by now, since all four teams played in the old AL West pre-realignment.

Anyway, I can't keep stressing how awful eight divisions would be.