Cleveland Fighting Walleye

[Brian in Boston]

The New Jersey Devils didn't "enter into an affiliation agreement" with an independently owned minor-league franchise. Rather, they purchased the Lowell Lock Monsters outright and reached an agreement with the City of Lowell to operate the team at Tsongas Arena for two years.

Which means that if/when New Jersey's front-office decides to pull out of the Merrimack Valley, any party interested in returning AHL hockey to the region is going to have to either (1) convince the league to grant them a brand new expansion franchise, (2) find a dormant franchise to revive or (3) purchase an existing team in another market and relocate it to the Lowell.

In other words, Lowell is going to be facing pretty steep odds against ever landing another AHL franchise.

[Guest]

So let's talk Hawk.

Do you think Rockford can support an AHL team? 320,000 metro, about 10,000 at the MetroCenter (I think), and it's a city that isn't really what you'd call a vibrant and thriving metropolis right now, though there are signs of improvement. In addition to Rockford-Loves Park, they could draw from Beloit, DeKalb, maaaaaaaybe McHenry County. However, this is still not all that far from Donald E. Stephens City, where the Wolves play. (Two people here will get that.) I don't have numbers on hand for how well the IceHogs (shudder) draw. Is the AHL, in most people's minds, really a step up from the UHL, or the USHL, or the IHL, or ECHL, or BHL, or DHL, or 3HL? If you didn't care to go to a UHL Rockford IceHogs (shudder) game, would you be interested in an AHL Rockford Blackhawks game?

[rams80]

So let's talk Hawk.

Do you think Rockford can support an AHL team? 320,000 metro, about 10,000 at the MetroCenter (I think), and it's a city that isn't really what you'd call a vibrant and thriving metropolis right now, though there are signs of improvement. In addition to Rockford-Loves Park, they could draw from Beloit, DeKalb, maaaaaaaybe McHenry County. However, this is still not all that far from Donald E. Stephens City, where the Wolves play. (Two people here will get that.) I don't have numbers on hand for how well the IceHogs (shudder) draw. Is the AHL, in most people's minds, really a step up from the UHL, or the USHL, or the IHL, or ECHL, or BHL, or DHL, or 3HL? If you didn't care to go to a UHL Rockford IceHogs (shudder) game, would you be interested in an AHL Rockford Blackhawks game?

If Peoria can support a team, I'm pretty sure Rockford can as well. Actually, their attendance in the UHL (just under 4200) puts them ahead of 11 AHL teams.

[Sodboy13]

Do you think Rockford can support an AHL team?

If Rockford were the exact same town it is now, with the same problems, same demographics, and same level of hockey interest, but in Massachusetts, I'd say "absolutely." But since it's in Illinois, I'm gonna have to say "possibly." The reason? Travel. The schedule is so ridiculously weighted (60 in-division games) to save money for all of those small-market East Coast teams. Most of their road games are bus trips. Unfortunately, 60 games in the Western Division means you have to budget for flights to Houston, San Antonio, Omaha (maybe,) and Winnipeg. Even with those road trips condensed thanks to weekend 2-game series, it's gonna cost more to operate a Midwestern AHL team than an East Coast one, plain and simple. And I don't know if 4,000 a night in Rockford is enough to keep things afloat for long, especially with Dollar Bill at the helm.

On a somewhat related tangent, I've heard repeatedly (though never anything concrete) that there is a strong disdain for the western teams in the AHL, by both the eastern teams and the heads of the league itself. The story I've heard in one form or another often goes that the league really liked that influx of expansion cash when the 6 IHL teams came over, but didn't care at all for the subsequent hike in travel expenses, the tendency of "I" teams to be a bit more free-spending, and the nasty little habit former IHL teams have of showing up in the Finals every year. Thusly, the trimming of the veterans' exemption, and the heavily-weighted schedules. (And the inexplicable return to Worcester, though I will give them credit for drawing 4,300 a game so far.)

However, this is still not all that far from Donald E. Stephens City, where the Wolves play. (Two people here will get that.)

Now that, sir, is comedy. That guy's gonna get elected to another three terms. Post-mortem. Just don't bring up the words "Emerald Casino" in his presence.

[rams80]

Do you think Rockford can support an AHL team?

If Rockford were the exact same town it is now, with the same problems, same demographics, and same level of hockey interest, but in Massachusetts, I'd say "absolutely." But since it's in Illinois, I'm gonna have to say "possibly." The reason? Travel. The schedule is so ridiculously weighted (60 in-division games) to save money for all of those small-market East Coast teams. Most of their road games are bus trips. Unfortunately, 60 games in the Western Division means you have to budget for flights to Houston, San Antonio, Omaha (maybe,) and Winnipeg. Even with those road trips condensed thanks to weekend 2-game series, it's gonna cost more to operate a Midwestern AHL team than an East Coast one, plain and simple. And I don't know if 4,000 a night in Rockford is enough to keep things afloat for long, especially with Dollar Bill at the helm.

On a somewhat related tangent, I've heard repeatedly (though never anything concrete) that there is a strong disdain for the western teams in the AHL, by both the eastern teams and the heads of the league itself. The story I've heard in one form or another often goes that the league really liked that influx of expansion cash when the 6 IHL teams came over, but didn't care at all for the subsequent hike in travel expenses, the tendency of "I" teams to be a bit more free-spending, and the nasty little habit former IHL teams have of showing up in the Finals every year. Thusly, the trimming of the veterans' exemption, and the heavily-weighted schedules. (And the inexplicable return to Worcester, though I will give them credit for drawing 4,300 a game so far.)

Actually, Bruce Saurs said when the Rivermen moved up they were actually saving money on travel (now granted its different from playing in the UHL; Peoria's closets road trips in the ECHL were Toledo and Dayton, Rockford has fellow teams in Bloomington, Moline, Chicago, etc.) IIRC the only games the Rivs fly to are for those Texas series; I'm almost certain they take the team bus to Winnipeg. Omaha (assuming they're still around) isn't that bad really travel wise as well.

Actually, the IceHogs are currently ahead of potential rival Milwaukee in the attendance department and the Admirals aren't showing any sign of imminent death. I think they can do alright with 4000.

Worcester made sense for one reason only; San Jose (which owns the team) doesn't want to pay a whole lot to have the team drive to road games. Ergo, its off to New England.

[Bucks6thMan]

If I remember correctly, there are a number of affiliation agreements that are in their final seasons:

* Springfield's agreement with Tampa Bay is up.

* Rochester's full agreement with Buffalo and partial affiliation with Florida are both up.

* Grand Rapids' agreement with Detroit is up.

* Milwaukee's agreement with Nashville is up.

* Hershey's agreement with Washington is up, but both clubs have an option they can exercise for an additional year.

* Albany's agreement with Carolina is up, but both clubs have options for the 2007-8 and 2008-09 seasons.

* Norfolk's agreement with Chicago is up after this season, though the Admirals have announced that they were in the process of attempting to negotiate an extension.

* Binghamton's agreement with Ottawa is up, but both sides say that they've agreed to an extension through 2011-12. Delays in finalizing the agreement are due to the B-Sens having not yet finalized a new lease with the Broome County Veterans Memorial Coliseum.

Things could get very interesting.

Man would I LOVE to see Milwaukee get the Red Wings' AHL club. I doubt it'll happen since the Admirals' ownership has a Preds' flavor to it, but the Red Wings always end up being the favorite NHL team in Wisconsin everytime they do a poll. Besides, Grand Rapids is gonna pull for the Red Wings no matter whose minor league team they have. This would be a great opportunity for the Wings to spread their fan base significantly beyond Michigan's borders.

[Gothamite]

Given the Predators' owner's connection to Wisconsin, I'd be surprised if they didn't re-up with the Ads.

Well, in all fairness, if I was a hockey fan in Lowell, I wouldn't exactly be fired up about heading out to see a team that looked like it was basically using my town as a placeholder until something better came along.

That's a little how I felt with the one-year-only Madison Hatters baseball club, but I went to a lot of games in 1994.

[Guest]

The only real twist here would be the blue and yellow feathers to reflect Rockford's substantial Swedish heritage. It has to be something simple, though.

[Sodboy13]

Looks nice, but there's no way the Hawks are going for those colors in Rockford as long as blue and yellow are being worn in St. Louis and Peoria.

[Guest]

Aw, shoot. That's all I could think of, Rockford-wise. Disregard.

[spartacat_12]

WTF is a Walleye? Whatever happened to the other team in Cleveland....was it the Barons?

WTF is a Steeler? Or for that matter: WTF is a "Red Wing"?

A Steeler is someone in the steel industry. And a Red Wing is a body part found on a bird or bat which is of red pigment. God, think before you post.

[Francis10]

Which means that if/when New Jersey's front-office decides to pull out of the Merrimack Valley, any party interested in returning AHL hockey to the region is going to have to either (1) convince the league to grant them a brand new expansion franchise, (2) find a dormant franchise to revive or (3) purchase an existing team in another market and relocate it to the Lowell.

In other words, Lowell is going to be facing pretty steep odds against ever landing another AHL franchise.

And #1 can't happen. Andrews capped the league at 30 teams, and my recollection is there are 3 confirmed dormant teams: the soon-to-be Walleyes, the dormant Cincinnati club/failed Railraiders, and the dormant Edmonton Road Runners.

[-Helix-]

The Fighting Walleye. I love it. At least they're fighting, because "Cleveland Walleye," now THAT would be silly.

Kind of like "Ducks" and "Mighty Ducks"

[-Helix-]

It's just odd to me that college hockey and junior hockey are not only outdrawing, but are appraently actually hurting a top-level minor league team. To me, that's like a Triple-A baseball team coming to town and fans saying, "Oh, no thanks, we much prefer our Northern League team." But hey, team loyalties are what they are. And not only are the Knights suffering from a distinct lack of fannies in the seats, for me, the real sign of impending doom is the lack of ads on the boards. I haven't seen pro hockey boards that white since about '86.

I don't think it's very odd.

If I lived in Omaha, UNO would be my choice for hockey. I would much rather see storied college programs like the Minnesota Gophers or Michigan Wolverines than the.... Binghamton Senators or Albany River Rats... I could name alot more college players than AHL players too.

USHL is pretty good hockey too. I went to a USHL game in Columbus the night after an NHL game and I actually enjoyed the action in the USHL game more. So much more passion at that level than in the pros. Not to mention the USHL is probably cheaper.

[Bucks6thMan]

It's just odd to me that college hockey and junior hockey are not only outdrawing, but are appraently actually hurting a top-level minor league team. To me, that's like a Triple-A baseball team coming to town and fans saying, "Oh, no thanks, we much prefer our Northern League team." But hey, team loyalties are what they are. And not only are the Knights suffering from a distinct lack of fannies in the seats, for me, the real sign of impending doom is the lack of ads on the boards. I haven't seen pro hockey boards that white since about '86.

I don't think it's that odd considering that:

A. Having a D1 hockey program is an extremely big deal (at least everywhere except Wayne State ) since less than 25% of D1 NCAA schools have them.

and B. The USHL and AHL are polar opposites when it comes to marketing themselves.

When I was in Green Bay (for the longest two years of my life) most people didn't even know that the Gamblers (USHL) was a lower level than St. Norbert College (a D3 school in the GB suburbs). So it's not just in Omaha where the USHL is outdrawing higher levels of hockey.

On the flip side, the AHL is completely inept when it comes to marketing. My hometown Admirals (Milwaukee, not Norfolk), used to reguarly draw over 7,000 when they were in the IHL. But since switching to the AHL, they've been lucky to get 4,000. In fact, I've always said that a UWM or Marquette hockey team would not only reguarly outdraw the Ads, but would probably steal fans from the Ads causing them to fold (there's a reason why some round of the Frozen Four comes to Milwaukee almost every year).

[Sodboy13]

On the flip side, the AHL is completely inept when it comes to marketing. My hometown Admirals (Milwaukee, not Norfolk), used to reguarly draw over 7,000 when they were in the IHL. But since switching to the AHL, they've been lucky to get 4,000. In fact, I've always said that a UWM or Marquette hockey team would not only reguarly outdraw the Ads, but would probably steal fans from the Ads causing them to fold (there's a reason why some round of the Frozen Four comes to Milwaukee almost every year).

Totally agreed on the AHL's marketing. It seems that if the AHL could really have things exactly the way they wanted, theirs would be a 30-team bus league crammed entirely into the Northeast U.S., with teams happily drawing 2,000-3,000 fans a game to stay afloat. Yeah, that's how you expand the reach and appeal of your product. The imbalanced schedule is also ridiculous. Yes, I want to see Chicago play Milwaukee. No, I do not want to see them play 10 times every single season. I'm sure there are teams in the AHL that have been in the league since the 2001 IHL expansion that haven't come to town once. It's entirely possible the Wolves haven't played some of those teams ever. AHL attendance is on the slide league-wide, and the league's officials seem to not have a problem at all with that.

This really makes me wish that the successful western teams would break away and form their own independent league, perhaps with partial NHL affiliation. Chicago, Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, Peoria, Manitoba, Houston, Iowa, and maybe lure in long-time attendance kings Fort Wayne and Oklahoma City, along with 3 to 7 other mid-major Midwestern and southern markets. Unfortunately, I doubt there would be room for such a league, given the current state of minor league hockey. It ain't 1994 anymore.

[Bucks6thMan]

On the flip side, the AHL is completely inept when it comes to marketing. My hometown Admirals (Milwaukee, not Norfolk), used to reguarly draw over 7,000 when they were in the IHL. But since switching to the AHL, they've been lucky to get 4,000. In fact, I've always said that a UWM or Marquette hockey team would not only reguarly outdraw the Ads, but would probably steal fans from the Ads causing them to fold (there's a reason why some round of the Frozen Four comes to Milwaukee almost every year).

Totally agreed on the AHL's marketing. It seems that if the AHL could really have things exactly the way they wanted, theirs would be a 30-team bus league crammed entirely into the Northeast U.S., with teams happily drawing 2,000-3,000 fans a game to stay afloat. Yeah, that's how you expand the reach and appeal of your product. The imbalanced schedule is also ridiculous. Yes, I want to see Chicago play Milwaukee. No, I do not want to see them play 10 times every single season. I'm sure there are teams in the AHL that have been in the league since the 2001 IHL expansion that haven't come to town once. It's entirely possible the Wolves haven't played some of those teams ever. AHL attendance is on the slide league-wide, and the league's officials seem to not have a problem at all with that.

This really makes me wish that the successful western teams would break away and form their own independent league, perhaps with partial NHL affiliation. Chicago, Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, Peoria, Manitoba, Houston, Iowa, and maybe lure in long-time attendance kings Fort Wayne and Oklahoma City, along with 3 to 7 other mid-major Midwestern and southern markets. Unfortunately, I doubt there would be room for such a league, given the current state of minor league hockey. It ain't 1994 anymore.

Oh yea... the number of times the Ads play the Wolves is ridiculous. I remember there used to be a bus (that may or may not still be there) that took people in the Milwaukee area to the Ads-Wolves games in Rosemont, but nobody was going on the trips because they knew that it would only be another couple weeks before the next time the Wolves came to Milwaukee.

And I like your idea for a separate league (it even breaks down into perfect "Great Lakes" and "Heartland" divisions). You're right in that it's not 1994 but I still think it's something those teams should look into.

[Fred T. Jane]

A Steeler is someone in the steel industry. And a Red Wing is a body part found on a bird or bat which is of red pigment. God, think before you post.

sar·casm Pronunciation (särkzm)

n.

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.

2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.

[Late Latin sarcasmus, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein, to bite the lips in rage, from sarx, sark-, flesh.]

For the record, when I see a red wing, I think of a work boot...

[nwtrailtrekker]

isnt a walleye a fish? what a dumb name

[Brian in Boston]

Top-tier minor-league hockey should be comprised of either a single 30-team league divided into three nearly-autonomous 10-team conferences or three independent 10-team leagues. If the former, severely limit inter-conference play until the playoffs.