NHL to expand?

[Mac the Knife]

The simple truth is that the NHL's owners have come to the realization that the strike/lockout/whatever caused damage to the game in America that isn't repairable short-term, particularly when it comes to television. While gate attendance has been great in most markets and all but a few teams are now in a much better financial position overall, television ratings are in the tank and it'll be a generation before the NHL sees revenue at comparable levels to what it had with its network deals with Fox, NBC, etc.

That being said they're searching for new sources of revenue - and expansion would be a huge, one-time shot in the arm. An NHL expansion team today would probably go for something in the neighborhood of $200-300 million. Add teams in Kansas City and Las Vegas at $300 million per, then split the proceeds 30 ways, and you've got a nice little $20 million windfall while at the same time adding two more television markets in case a network does come a' callin'.

Granted you're splitting TV revenues 32 ways instead of 30, but frankly there's not that much to split, so what the hell? And if the teams can't make it at the gate in KC and LV, they can pull a Winnipeg/Quebec/Minnesota/Nashville and go somewhere else where they'll do better.

As for talent dilution? Frankly I've never bought into the theory that expansion hurts talent levels in any sport. You mean to tell me that just because the NFL has 32 teams and 45 guys on each roster that there are only 1,440 guys out there who are good enough to play pro football? Or that there are fewer than 500 guys who are good enough to play at the NBA level? Hell, I could probably find 500 guys in New York City alone who could ball at the NBA level, but who never got a shot for one reason or another. The same applies in hockey - sure the expansion teams would suck at the outset, but ultimately they'd be assimilated, same as has been the case in every expansion every sport has ever had.

[Sir Donald]

Prince of Wales Conference

Smythe Division

Hamilton

Montréal

Ottawa

Toronto

Adams Division

Boston

Buffalo

Pittsburgh

Washington

Patrick Division

New Jersey

N.Y. Islanders

N.Y. Rangers

Philadelphia

Esposito Division

Atlanta

Carolina

Florida

Tampa Bay

Clarence Campbell Conference

Norris Division

Chicago

Columbus

Detroit

Minnesota

Green Division

Dallas

Kansas City

Phoenix

St. Louis

Cooke Division

Anaheim

Colorado

Los Angeles

San Jose

Leader Division

Calgary

Edmonton

Portland

Vancouve

It'd be great if it was like that - especially with the old division names. Gives it a bit of extra class.

[Brendan]

Why not just move the teams in the struggling markets instead of diluteing the talent even more. If anything they should be extracting. I do think the should get in to Las Vegas before the MLB and NBA, it would give them some exposure and if it works out then risk would be greatly rewarded.

1) Nashville, the only struggling team on the verge of moving, seems headed for Hamilton. Not KC or Las Vegas.

You seem to be under the impression that half the league is in the crapper and looking for a new place to put their teams. Besides Nashville, you're wrong.

2) Owners move their teams if they're "struggling", not the league. Bettman can't just decide to take Detroit and Toronto and put them in San Juan and Mexico City.

3) Contracting (if thats what you mean by extracting) would be a horrible idea. The league is in desperate need for MORE fans and MORE attention. So why in gods name would you TAKE AWAY teams and the fans and attention that goes with them? At a time like this, the more teams the merrier for the league. They need the money.

4) What do struggling markets have to do with expansion? Single owners support their own teams, not the league. If, say, Nashville is having problems, why should that stop the league from expanding if it sees fit? The "a league that doesn't have all it's current teams in stable positions shouldn't expand" argument does nothing for me. Making teams stable are the responsibility of the owners. If that doesn't work, they relocate. Big deal.

What about Flordia, Carolina, Atlanta, Colombus and many more teams. I never ment moving Toronto or Detroit I dont know how you got that. Contracting would be a good idea it would add more talent to the teams and add a little more scoring. Somebody already answered your fourth point well.

[Viper]

Well, the NHL needs to move into the Las Vegas. If they can't get a team to move there, I don't think expansion is THAT bad of an idea. Whatever sport is first into Vegas is going to make a mint...

Based on what? The television market sucks, the populace is all largely transplant, and it's not a normal 9-5 town.

Exactly. People have this fantasy about Vegas and its potential success holding a pro sports team thats just simply not true. Nevada as a whole has a suprisingly weak economy that can't even support the few public schools it has. Where is it gonna dig the funds from to pay for the things needed to implant a pro team (Unless its 100% privately funded, but thats quite a longshot)? And on top of that, other than tourism, Vegas has ZERO outside draw. Sure toursim will support during peak times, but what happens during the slow seasons? And on top of that, you can't count on tourists to purchase season tickets, which (what I hear) is a BIG chunk of a teams overall revenue. Tourism is a suprisingly risky gamble when it comes to supporting sports, even in Vegas. And on top of that, any sports team is going to have an amazing amount of competition in Vegas with the Gaming and Entertainment industry. Sure you could argue that places like NYC have comparible industries, but they also have an enormous population to support those industries. Add all that to Skyrocketting real estate prices which is ALREADY creating a drop in population and you've got a recipe for disaster. Give it ten years, and the team in Vegas will already be history.

One word: comps.

I can see many if not most of the major casinos in town buying up big blocks of season tickets, provided that they can be broken up into single-game tickets and given to their high-rolling patrons as comps. They might even lease skyboxes for their biggest whales. This idea was floated as a possibility when MLB's Expos, Marlins and Twins were flirting with Vegas a few years ago. If this works, it would not only benefit the team but the entire league, since many of these comp tickets will be given to out-of-towners that are new to the game, including people from other NHL cities - people with money.

[jkrdevil]

Why not just move the teams in the struggling markets instead of diluteing the talent even more. If anything they should be extracting. I do think the should get in to Las Vegas before the MLB and NBA, it would give them some exposure and if it works out then risk would be greatly rewarded.

1) Nashville, the only struggling team on the verge of moving, seems headed for Hamilton. Not KC or Las Vegas.

You seem to be under the impression that half the league is in the crapper and looking for a new place to put their teams. Besides Nashville, you're wrong.

2) Owners move their teams if they're "struggling", not the league. Bettman can't just decide to take Detroit and Toronto and put them in San Juan and Mexico City.

3) Contracting (if thats what you mean by extracting) would be a horrible idea. The league is in desperate need for MORE fans and MORE attention. So why in gods name would you TAKE AWAY teams and the fans and attention that goes with them? At a time like this, the more teams the merrier for the league. They need the money.

4) What do struggling markets have to do with expansion? Single owners support their own teams, not the league. If, say, Nashville is having problems, why should that stop the league from expanding if it sees fit? The "a league that doesn't have all it's current teams in stable positions shouldn't expand" argument does nothing for me. Making teams stable are the responsibility of the owners. If that doesn't work, they relocate. Big deal.

What about Flordia, Carolina, Atlanta, Colombus and many more teams. I never ment moving Toronto or Detroit I dont know how you got that. Contracting would be a good idea it would add more talent to the teams and add a little more scoring. Somebody already answered your fourth point well.

The only one of those teams that can possibly even be considered struggling is Florida (of course they have sucked for years which doesn't draw in fans). Just because you don't like their geographic location (and in one case I don't even think you know where the city is nor do you know how to spell it) doesn't mean the team is struggling.

[Brian in Boston]

Clarence Campbell Conference

Green Division

Colorado

Dallas

Kansas City

St. Louis

Cooke Division

Anaheim

Los Angeles

Phoenix

San Jose

Tweaked a slight problem with your alignment idea. Geography dictates that Phoenix should be in a division with the California teams... particularly Los Angeles and Anaheim.

[Mac the Knife]

What about Flordia, Carolina, Atlanta, Colombus and many more teams.

Uh, Brendan? You're aware that two of these four showed a profit last year, right?

[Eye]

What about Flordia, Carolina, Atlanta, Colombus and many more teams.

Uh, Brendan? You're aware that two of these four showed a profit last year, right?

True, however the other two didn't make any money because they aren't real locations.

-E.A.R.

[GeorgesL]

IMO the NHL has been going downhill since the Nordiques left Quebec.

[HedleyLamarr]

Boston

Buffalo

Pittsburgh

Washington

Putting Crosby and Ovechkin in the same division would be pretty interesting.....

[gojetsgo]

Well, the NHL needs to move into the Las Vegas. If they can't get a team to move there, I don't think expansion is THAT bad of an idea. Whatever sport is first into Vegas is going to make a mint...

Based on what? The television market sucks, the populace is all largely transplant, and it's not a normal 9-5 town.

Exactly. People have this fantasy about Vegas and its potential success holding a pro sports team thats just simply not true. Nevada as a whole has a suprisingly weak economy that can't even support the few public schools it has. Where is it gonna dig the funds from to pay for the things needed to implant a pro team (Unless its 100% privately funded, but thats quite a longshot)? And on top of that, other than tourism, Vegas has ZERO outside draw. Sure toursim will support during peak times, but what happens during the slow seasons? And on top of that, you can't count on tourists to purchase season tickets, which (what I hear) is a BIG chunk of a teams overall revenue. Tourism is a suprisingly risky gamble when it comes to supporting sports, even in Vegas. And on top of that, any sports team is going to have an amazing amount of competition in Vegas with the Gaming and Entertainment industry. Sure you could argue that places like NYC have comparible industries, but they also have an enormous population to support those industries. Add all that to Skyrocketting real estate prices which is ALREADY creating a drop in population and you've got a recipe for disaster. Give it ten years, and the team in Vegas will already be history.

One word: comps.

I can see many if not most of the major casinos in town buying up big blocks of season tickets, provided that they can be broken up into single-game tickets and given to their high-rolling patrons as comps. They might even lease skyboxes for their biggest whales. This idea was floated as a possibility when MLB's Expos, Marlins and Twins were flirting with Vegas a few years ago. If this works, it would not only benefit the team but the entire league, since many of these comp tickets will be given to out-of-towners that are new to the game, including people from other NHL cities - people with money.

Comps does nothing for the game. If (and when) people don't show up, you get a team playing to an empty arena and announcing near sellouts. The NHL already has a severe problem with this.

Example (announced attendance was more than 15,000):

[Eye]

Well, the NHL needs to move into the Las Vegas. If they can't get a team to move there, I don't think expansion is THAT bad of an idea. Whatever sport is first into Vegas is going to make a mint...

Based on what? The television market sucks, the populace is all largely transplant, and it's not a normal 9-5 town.

Exactly. People have this fantasy about Vegas and its potential success holding a pro sports team thats just simply not true. Nevada as a whole has a suprisingly weak economy that can't even support the few public schools it has. Where is it gonna dig the funds from to pay for the things needed to implant a pro team (Unless its 100% privately funded, but thats quite a longshot)? And on top of that, other than tourism, Vegas has ZERO outside draw. Sure toursim will support during peak times, but what happens during the slow seasons? And on top of that, you can't count on tourists to purchase season tickets, which (what I hear) is a BIG chunk of a teams overall revenue. Tourism is a suprisingly risky gamble when it comes to supporting sports, even in Vegas. And on top of that, any sports team is going to have an amazing amount of competition in Vegas with the Gaming and Entertainment industry. Sure you could argue that places like NYC have comparible industries, but they also have an enormous population to support those industries. Add all that to Skyrocketting real estate prices which is ALREADY creating a drop in population and you've got a recipe for disaster. Give it ten years, and the team in Vegas will already be history.

One word: comps.

I can see many if not most of the major casinos in town buying up big blocks of season tickets, provided that they can be broken up into single-game tickets and given to their high-rolling patrons as comps. They might even lease skyboxes for their biggest whales. This idea was floated as a possibility when MLB's Expos, Marlins and Twins were flirting with Vegas a few years ago. If this works, it would not only benefit the team but the entire league, since many of these comp tickets will be given to out-of-towners that are new to the game, including people from other NHL cities - people with money.

Comps does nothing for the game. If (and when) people don't show up, you get a team playing to an empty arena and announcing near sellouts. The NHL already has a severe problem with this.

Example (announced attendance was more than 15,000):

Stop taking shots at Phoenix. Your comment has no merit because it's just another excuse for you to take a shot at the Coyotes. Stop crying and get over it. I understand that you are angry and sad that your team is gone, but it seems that almost all of your posts point out something negative with the Phoenix organization. Stop blasting the Coyotes. I hope you don't represent all Winnipeggers because if you do, then I'm glad your team is gone.

As for expansion, I say if the NHL feels that another market is worthy of a team of their own (good arena, television market, an already somewhat established (or established) fan base that can continue to grow) then go for it. Drawing in more fans will only help the league, but the loss of money might be too much. We'll see how it goes, I guess.

-E.A.R.

[gojetsgo]

The only pic I have of an empty crowd during a game. It was not meant to take a shot at Phoenix.

I think Las Vegas may indeed work as an NHL market. However comps is NOT the way to make a team work. My comment does have merit.

[Eye]

The only pic I have of an empty crowd during a game. It was not meant to take a shot at Phoenix.

I think Las Vegas may indeed work as an NHL market. However comps is NOT the way to make a team work. My comment does have merit.

Fair enough, I take my comment back. And for the record, I did see your point. I just thought your point of view was clouded by the whole Winnipeg/Phoenix thing.

-E.A.R.

[HedleyLamarr]

Comps does nothing for the game. If (and when) people don't show up, you get a team playing to an empty arena and announcing near sellouts. The NHL already has a severe problem with this.

Example (announced attendance was more than 15,000):

Yes, nothing is more proving of determining a city's interest in hockey quite like a picture of a mid-week game in April, with half a period remaining in the contest, with two teams that had been eliminated from playoff contention long before then.......

[gojetsgo]

You're missing the entire point. the announced attendance was 15000. When many comps are given away, that is what you get - empty arenas.

And for what it's worth, it was Dale Hawerchuk night! If that doesn't bring 'em in, I don't know what will.

[Lee.]

Shoulda gone with Dougie Smail night.

Or Iron Mike Amodeo.

[IceCap]

Clarence Campbell Conference

Green Division

Colorado

Dallas

Kansas City

St. Louis

Cooke Division

Anaheim

Los Angeles

Phoenix

San Jose

Tweaked a slight problem with your alignment idea. Geography dictates that Phoenix should be in a division with the California teams... particularly Los Angeles and Anaheim.

Even better.

The NHL expanding to 32 teams isn't a bad idea at all. The game needs to create new markets.

Also, other then Nashville, I wouldn't consider moving any of the current teams.

[AndrewPF]

...because they aren't real locations.

:censored:in' A!

[budbowl77]

Attention NHL, thanks but no thanks to Hockey in Kansas City or Las Vegas