Canada vs. USA - The NHL $ issue

[zer0dotcom]

I'm kinda surprised that I haven't seen this posted yet...sure to add more fuel to the expansion vs. tradition fire for NHL fans, the League released it's ticket revenue info for the 2007-2008 NHL season.

Of the 1.1 Billion US that the league made in ticket sales (regular season) the 6 Canadian Markets account for 31%, and have gone through double digit increases in sales over the past year, according to the Toronto Sun Article. Overall, the league has seen an 11% rise in sales, but 11 of 24 US markets either broke even, or reported loses this season.

Also stated was that the Rising Canadian dollar may have been accountable for as much as half of the League's revenue gains since the NHL lockout in 2004-2005. If the Canadian teams are removed from the equation, league revenue has grown only 2% per year since then.

In total revenue (US) generated in 2007-2008, the top 6 franchises are:

Toronto - 1.9 million per game

Montreal - 1.7 million per game

Vancouver - 1.4 million

Calgary - 1.3 million

New York rangers - 1.3 million

Ottawa - 1.2 million.

the next 6, in order are Edmonton, Minnesota, Colorado, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Dallas. Dalls is the most profitable team that made less than 1 million per game.

The top 5 for biggest growth since 06-07

Chicago - 42.8% rise in ticket revenue

New Jersey - 41.6% rise

St. Louis - 33.3% rise

Montreal - 30.8%

Calgary - 30%

The remaining Canadian cities are the next four in line, all above 20% in revenue growth.

All stats are provided by the Toronto Star newspaper. Alternate online article can be found here: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...ues-canada.html

essentially, it's ammo for hockey fans who say that the money in Professional hockey is North of the border. In the past two years, as a Hockey fan I've accepted that the NHL is not a major sport in North America. It's a Major Sport in Canada, but in the US it's on the fringe. For two decades the NHL has been on an aggressive expansion and growth campaign, but looking at the stats, maybe it's time to sit down and deal with the markets they have...

That's not to say that all expansion has been a failure, or that the markets they have tried out have been failures. Dallas has been very successful, and is one of the most profitable US teams, as has the new Minnie franchise. Anaheim and San Jose have fared well, although the Sharks reportedly have lost $5 million each of the past two seasons. But some are faring pretty bad, and took steps back this season.

Phoenix's ticket revenue is down more that 18%, and LA lost 7%. Also in the negative are Colorado, Columbus, and Dalls (the stars are down only 0.5% however) Teams with 0% growth are the Flyers, Lightning, Bruins, Hurricanes and Panthers. Phoenix has lost $30 million a season, and has been contacted by as many as 6 potential buyers. Overall attendance is up, but that figure come from DISTRIBUTED tickets, not PAID FOR tickets. Dallas reportedly gives out 2,500 complimentary tickets per game (average) Edmonton and Montreal reportedly give out 200 each.

The difficult thing to think about for the NHL head brass now is this: you can make money by tapping more northern markets, or continue to wait out your weaker markets and test out new ones. Smart business would say, you've tested out plenty of markets in the past 20 years, breaking into 8 fresh new markets and setting up in some that are return markets. Where do you see the money and growth? older markets.

you can attribute it however you want. Here are the stats. The NHL is profitable in Northern markets. Bettman can fool himself all he wants about being one of the big 4, but facts say that the NHL is not a major sport in many US markets.

NHLPA executive Paul Kelly states that this highlights the importance of adding a new Canadian market BEFORE testing out suitor markets like Las Vegas, Houston and Kansas City. Kelly also advised that the NHL shouldn't simply shrug off Jim Bailsillie's overturns to league management (I have my reservations about that one. Jim has the resources and business sense to make a successful franchise, but his methods leave much to be desired)

So, it's out there now. Some folk in charge of the NHL operations are beginning to acknowledge that Canadian markets may be more profitable for the future of the NHL as opposed to continuing to grow the game in newer markets. The earliest that as movement would happen in any circumstance is in time for 2009-2010. Alot can happen in a years time...

[Don]

of course there is more money to be made up north, where the demand for tickets is greater and the access to the game is greater as well. trying to force hockey into markets that are new is a double edged sword as we've seen. you can have great success (dallas) or you can have a dud (florida). i can kinda see where theyre going with the expansion, but i didnt see anyone in South Florida crying "we need a hockey team! we've got 20k people waiting for season tickets right now!" you gotta look at markets where the demand is there for a hockey team, which they did in Minnesota. they should not shut out teams north of the border because they already love the game, and they wont be "new fans". all im saying is, take a look at Las Vegas if they want, research the market, if the demand is there (and not just one Hollywood producer wanting a team there), put a team there, but dont shut out Hamilton, or Winnipeg, just because they are in Canada, where the chances of being a success are greater.

[jkrdevil]

First off ticket revenue isn't everything. For instance the Devils are in the middle of the league in ticket revenue but they also have a 20 million dollar a year TV contract. That alone with the ticket revenue more than covers player cost. Similar thing with the Islanders (who were mentioned in the article) yes they are near the bottom in ticket revenue (that has a lot to do with a crumbling building) but have a rather large TV contract. Of course those two are more of the exception because the NYC has strong competition among regional sports networks driving up the rights.

As for Phoenix and Florida the other two constantly mentioned. Florida hasn't won a playoff game in more than a decade now (they were swept in 2000). As for Phoenix they have yet to win a playoff series while in Phoenix in fact that franchise hasn't won a playoff series in over 20 years (1987 in Winnipeg was the teams last playoff series win). I can't understand why teams who haven't had success in years would struggle at the gate. Let's give the teams a chance to be good for a period of time and see how the markets react before writing them off.

[LC]

From the Toronto Star article you read:

The most interesting league data may concern the sad-sack Coyotes, who were last in ticket revenue at $450,000. The team is losing more than $30 million a season and was contacted over the past season by six potential buyers, including Balsillie's lawyer, Richard Rodier.

Finally we're not last!

[Neon_Matrix]

Pffft, everyone piggy-backing off of our backs in Toronto. All you teams in the bottom half of the revenue list owe their continued existence to us!!

/End Cockiness.

[Gary]

From the Toronto Star article you read:

The most interesting league data may concern the sad-sack Coyotes, who were last in ticket revenue at $450,000. The team is losing more than $30 million a season and was contacted over the past season by six potential buyers, including Balsillie's lawyer, Richard Rodier.

Finally we're not last!

It has been noted as well that Moyes will not sell his share

[Mac the Knife]

Teams with 0% growth are the Flyers, Lightning, Bruins, Hurricanes and Panthers.

I can't speak for other markets, but in Raleigh it's simple: the team draws better when they are playing well, simple as that. 0% growth can be corrolated (sp?) to 0% playoff appearances the past two seasons + no significant ticket price increase.

I don't begrudge fans for wanting more NHL franchises in Canada at all, but there seems to be this overt attempt to get the league to call its expansion scheme of the 1990's a failure, when I personally think it's been a success. Hockey has been brought into new markets (albeit with varying levels of success), ones that wouldn't even have given the game a second glance 25 years ago. The league has unprecedented revenue, comparative cost containment, and while in the arena of television the league admittedly sucks wind, it has 30 franchises that each could command a quarter billion dollars on the open market - a far cry from even a decade ago.

So if you're inclined to move the Phoenix Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and someone can show me concrete information that the team'll work there, great. I'm on board. But generalities about Canadian vs. American hockey markets won't sell me anymore, solely due to the success the NHL has had in many (though admittedly not all) of its southern markets.

[Neon_Matrix]

Teams with 0% growth are the Flyers, Lightning, Bruins, Hurricanes and Panthers.

I can't speak for other markets, but in Raleigh it's simple: the team draws better when they are playing well, simple as that. 0% growth can be corrolated (sp?) to 0% playoff appearances the past two seasons + no significant ticket price increase.

I don't begrudge fans for wanting more NHL franchises in Canada at all, but there seems to be this overt attempt to get the league to call its expansion scheme of the 1990's a failure, when I personally think it's been a success. Hockey has been brought into new markets (albeit with varying levels of success), ones that wouldn't even have given the game a second glance 25 years ago. The league has unprecedented revenue, comparative cost containment, and while in the arena of television the league admittedly sucks wind, it has 30 franchises that each could command a quarter billion dollars on the open market - a far cry from even a decade ago.

So if you're inclined to move the Phoenix Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and someone can show me concrete information that the team'll work there, great. I'm on board. But generalities about Canadian vs. American hockey markets won't sell me anymore, solely due to the success the NHL has had in many (though admittedly not all) of its southern markets.

We have not been to the playoffs in 3 seasons and yet we still find a way to be on top.

[Lee.]

Teams with 0% growth are the Flyers, Lightning, Bruins, Hurricanes and Panthers.

I can't speak for other markets, but in Raleigh it's simple: the team draws better when they are playing well, simple as that. 0% growth can be corrolated (sp?) to 0% playoff appearances the past two seasons + no significant ticket price increase.

I don't begrudge fans for wanting more NHL franchises in Canada at all, but there seems to be this overt attempt to get the league to call its expansion scheme of the 1990's a failure, when I personally think it's been a success. Hockey has been brought into new markets (albeit with varying levels of success), ones that wouldn't even have given the game a second glance 25 years ago. The league has unprecedented revenue, comparative cost containment, and while in the arena of television the league admittedly sucks wind, it has 30 franchises that each could command a quarter billion dollars on the open market - a far cry from even a decade ago.

So if you're inclined to move the Phoenix Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and someone can show me concrete information that the team'll work there, great. I'm on board. But generalities about Canadian vs. American hockey markets won't sell me anymore, solely due to the success the NHL has had in many (though admittedly not all) of its southern markets.

We have not been to the playoffs in 3 seasons and yet we still find a way to be on top.

That's because you've found a way to brainwash the locals and 60% of the english-speaking population of an entire country that The Leafs© are the best thing since realistic vibrating action.

[BBTV]

Where can one sample this vibrating action you speak of?

[Neon_Matrix]

Where can one sample this vibrating action you speak of?

Place your cellphone between your legs and keep calling it from your home phone.

[DEAD!]

Where can one sample this vibrating action you speak of?

Place your cellphone between your legs and keep calling it from your home phone.

... or, if you want to be more adventurous, try to use the 3-way calling option.

[Neon_Matrix]

Where can one sample this vibrating action you speak of?

Place your cellphone between your legs and keep calling it from your home phone.

... or, if you want to be more adventurous, try to use the 3-way calling option.

Oooooooooh, thats naughty!!

[Mac the Knife]

Teams with 0% growth are the Flyers, Lightning, Bruins, Hurricanes and Panthers.

I can't speak for other markets, but in Raleigh it's simple: the team draws better when they are playing well, simple as that. 0% growth can be corrolated (sp?) to 0% playoff appearances the past two seasons + no significant ticket price increase.

I don't begrudge fans for wanting more NHL franchises in Canada at all, but there seems to be this overt attempt to get the league to call its expansion scheme of the 1990's a failure, when I personally think it's been a success. Hockey has been brought into new markets (albeit with varying levels of success), ones that wouldn't even have given the game a second glance 25 years ago. The league has unprecedented revenue, comparative cost containment, and while in the arena of television the league admittedly sucks wind, it has 30 franchises that each could command a quarter billion dollars on the open market - a far cry from even a decade ago.

So if you're inclined to move the Phoenix Coyotes back to Winnipeg, and someone can show me concrete information that the team'll work there, great. I'm on board. But generalities about Canadian vs. American hockey markets won't sell me anymore, solely due to the success the NHL has had in many (though admittedly not all) of its southern markets.

We have not been to the playoffs in 3 seasons and yet we still find a way to be on top.

Well, being in the Toronto market (roughly 6 million) vs. being in the Raleigh market (roughly 1.25 million) doesn't hurt.

[Coast2CoastAM2006]

Where can one sample this vibrating action you speak of?

silver bullet vibrator.

[Mac the Knife]

I heard the Anal Intruder also does the job, but I've only heard that second-hand...

[Joshawaggie]

I heard the Anal Intruder also does the job, but I've only heard that second-hand...

Writing it down and then reading it to yourself is not considered second hand.

[Mac the Knife]

I heard the Anal Intruder also does the job, but I've only heard that second-hand...

Writing it down and then reading it to yourself is not considered second hand.

True, but my source was Lamicus in this case, so I stand by it.

[Lee.]

I heard the Anal Intruder also does the job, but I've only heard that second-hand...

Writing it down and then reading it to yourself is not considered second hand.

True, but my source was Lamicus in this case, so I stand by it.

You can just go yourself.

Again, with the Anal Intruder.

And just let me say that this thread was a lot more fun before assbag coast to coast started naming specific items. If you have to be that obvious, you're not trying very hard.

jots down "Anal Intruders" as potential franchise identity

[pollux]

Do the numbers per game include TV revenues?

Because if not, Torontonians are getting -ed by MLSE since the arena isn't as big as Montreal's. And tickets for the Habs don't come cheap either.