Lack of Jewish Universities in NCAA

[gueman]

Well a lot of you brought up a lot of good points. Many I have considered before I posted the question. I wasn't focusing just on football though. Back in the day, and I mean before 99% of us were born, basketball in the 1930-50's there was a large Jewish presence. As for the population issues there are 4 million Mormons in the US, while there are 5.2 million Jews in the US. I think footballfiji may have shed the most light by bringing up that most non Jews would not be willing to attend a Jewish university.

Oh and the Orthodox Jew that was the focus of much attention in Baltimore was Tamir Goodman, he had a verbal with Maryland then went to Towson. He says that he could not go to Maryland because they could not change their schedule to accommodate the Sabbath. Towson was more willing to work with him, but he only played one season averaging 6 points, 4 assists, and 2.5 rebounds per game in his freshman year in 2000-2001. He then left the team after a dispute with the coach over playing time and said the coach was anti-Semitic. He left the US to play in Israel were he signed with Maccabi Tel Aviv he didn't play much there either, and then they "loaned" him to lesser teams. He came back to the US in 07 to play for the Maryland Nighthawks of the ABA then the PBL(?).

Anyway I remember the press he got when he was in HS, he was dubbed the "Jewish Jordan", but his teams never faced the top teams in the Baltimore/Washington the Dunbars, DeMatha's, Calvert Hall's or Loyola's. He was way over hyped and there was always some question over the whole Maryland thing in the Gary Williams was reported as saying he never offered him a scholarship. So Goodman's revocation of his verbal to U of M was rather suspect.

[PittsburghSucks]

The Catholics have Notre Dame, Boston Collage, Georgetown, Villanova and a few more. The Mormons have BYU. The Methodist have SMU, Baptists have Baylor, and Wake Forest. TCU represents the independent Christian Churches.

But why is there no Jewish universities on the same scale?

There is a lot. There just isnt any with a major sports team. Not sure why.

Money. It costs money to field teams.

Why spend, when you can save?

If this racist remark had been made about blacks or gays on this board everybody would be all over this bigoted statement. But I guess it's okay to hate on Jews. I least we know how Speedy feels about Jews.

[BBTV]

The Catholics have Notre Dame, Boston Collage, Georgetown, Villanova and a few more. The Mormons have BYU. The Methodist have SMU, Baptists have Baylor, and Wake Forest. TCU represents the independent Christian Churches.

But why is there no Jewish universities on the same scale?

There is a lot. There just isnt any with a major sports team. Not sure why.

Money. It costs money to field teams.

Why spend, when you can save?

If this racist remark had been made about blacks or gays on this board everybody would be all over this bigoted statement. But I guess it's okay to hate on Jews. I least we know how Speedy feels about Jews.

That bigoted statement has been "attacked" already.

[njmeadowlanders]

Yes, the name Tamir Goodman does ring a bell...

And I still like to boast that an all-time Jewish baseball team would always have a great chance of winning any given game because we could just throw Sandy Koufax to the hill...

[gueman]

Yes, the name Tamir Goodman does ring a bell...

And I still like to boast that an all-time Jewish baseball team would always have a great chance of winning any given game because we could just throw Sandy Koufax to the hill...

Ohh..that could be a intresting thread. All time baseball teams based on religion. The "Jews" would have a tough team but the "Catholics" would be hard to beat...Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Roberto Clemente? and a Jewish team with Koufax, Palmer and Warren Spahn(?) on the mound.

It would be the ultimate "Church/Temple Softball League".

[Waffles]

A writer named Harry Stein wrote an article in a 1976 issue of Esquire with an "All Time All-Star Argument Starter" that put together all-time rosters of players by ethnicity and national origin. I can't find it on the Google, but I've seen it around before.

[BBTV]

Why is being Jewish considered being part of an ethnic group, as opposed to just being a follower of the religion regardless of your ethnic makeup?

[gueman]

Why is being Jewish considered being part of an ethnic group, as opposed to just being a follower of the religion regardless of your ethnic makeup?

6 dictionary results for: ethnic

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

eth·nic /ˈɛθnɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[eth-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

?adjective

1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

6. Obsolete. pagan; heathen.

[BBTV]

Why is being Jewish considered being part of an ethnic group, as opposed to just being a follower of the religion regardless of your ethnic makeup?

6 dictionary results for: ethnic

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

eth·nic /ˈɛθnɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[eth-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

6. Obsolete. pagan; heathen.

Maybe race was the word I was looking for instead of ethnicity, but I thought race was too strong. What I mean is that there are stereotypical traits that apply to (among others) people of European, African, Middle Eastern, and "Jewish" descent. In many people's eyes, someone who is born of Jewish parents (who bear the stereotypical Jewish physical traits) who chooses to practice another religion (or none at all) is still considered by most to be Jewish - as if it is a race and not a religion.

EDIT:

It's a hard for me to articulate what I'm trying to say, so to put it a different way, Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews. If I'm the person I described above, who was born from Jewish parents with the middle-eastern physical traits that many identify with Jews, yet I'm the most devout Christian that there could be, chances are I'm still targeted for extermination. Sorry for the dramatic comparison, but like I said, it's tough for me to explain.

[eqtmgr]

Gees, I'm sorry that I didn't see the emotioncon. And yes, I do get offended at some of the stuff on here. Most of the time I choose to ignore it.

i just get tired of hearing comments that Jews are stingy with money, etc. As an equipment manager, I hear it a lot from players, coaches, vendors, etc. I let them know that I am Jewish, they apologize for their comment and we move on.

I didn't really take notice of the fact that Brandies was a "Jewish" university while living in the Bean. i just thought that it was another university just like all of the other ones.

Look, I don't really care what religious sect a university is sponsored by. If they have the money and the desire to participate in intercollegiate sports, then they are entitled to that right just as long as they go through the proper processes.

[gueman]

Why is being Jewish considered being part of an ethnic group, as opposed to just being a follower of the religion regardless of your ethnic makeup?

6 dictionary results for: ethnic

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This

eth·nic /ˈɛθnɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[eth-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

?adjective

1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

6. Obsolete. pagan; heathen.

Maybe race was the word I was looking for instead of ethnicity, but I thought race was too strong. What I mean is that there are stereotypical traits that apply to (among others) people of European, African, Middle Eastern, and "Jewish" descent. In many people's eyes, someone who is born of Jewish parents (who bear the stereotypical Jewish physical traits) who chooses to practice another religion (or none at all) is still considered by most to be Jewish - as if it is a race and not a religion.

EDIT:

It's a hard for me to articulate what I'm trying to say, so to put it a different way, Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews. If I'm the person I described above, who was born from Jewish parents with the middle-eastern physical traits that many identify with Jews, yet I'm the most devout Christian that there could be, chances are I'm still targeted for extermination. Sorry for the dramatic comparison, but like I said, it's tough for me to explain.

Well since proselytizing is not part of the Jewish experience, most Jews would share the same biological and cultural heritage. Isn't that a part of "being Jewish"? Not like Irish Catholics vs. Polish Catholics, vs. Mexican Catholics.

I think I knew what you were trying to express. Something like..."not all Jews are the same". And if you look at Timir Goodman he does not look to stereotypical, he had RED hair. He looks like a tall Irish kid that got his nose broken.

[speedy]

The Catholics have Notre Dame, Boston Collage, Georgetown, Villanova and a few more. The Mormons have BYU. The Methodist have SMU, Baptists have Baylor, and Wake Forest. TCU represents the independent Christian Churches.

But why is there no Jewish universities on the same scale?

There is a lot. There just isnt any with a major sports team. Not sure why.

Money. It costs money to field teams.

Why spend, when you can save?

If this racist remark had been made about blacks or gays on this board everybody would be all over this bigoted statement. But I guess it's okay to hate on Jews. I least we know how Speedy feels about Jews.

Get over yourself. It was clearly a bad joke that in no way was supposed to be taken as seriously as it was, so now I'm a bigot? Yikes.

[PittsburghSucks]

The Catholics have Notre Dame, Boston Collage, Georgetown, Villanova and a few more. The Mormons have BYU. The Methodist have SMU, Baptists have Baylor, and Wake Forest. TCU represents the independent Christian Churches.

But why is there no Jewish universities on the same scale?

There is a lot. There just isnt any with a major sports team. Not sure why.

Money. It costs money to field teams.

Why spend, when your can save?

If this racist remark had been made about blacks or gays on this board everybody would be all over this bigoted statement. But I guess it's okay to hate on Jews. I least we know how Speedy feels about Jews.

Get over yourself. It was clearly a bad joke that in no way was supposed to be taken as seriously as it was, so now I'm a bigot? Yikes.

Isn't a joke supposed to be funny?

I don't get your so called joke.

[oddball]

We just suck at sports.

All kidding aside...I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that there is no mainstream, officially Jewish university - athletics aside - on the scale of BYU, SMU, Notre Dame, etc. Judaism is not a very politically structured religion; we don't have religious figureheads like the Pope and Archbishops or a power hierarchy like the Mormon church to govern, mandate, or affiliate with universities. We are made up of a disparate range of sometimes vaguely defined denominations and movements - which have their own seminaries, but none with an official affiliation with a large, secular (in terms of educational aspirations) university. It takes a large school to field a competitive sports program to begin with, and it would take a school with very casual Jewish affiliation, like relaxed Sabbath rules and educational options beyond religious instruction, and a pool of potential students open to more than just the highly devout, to make the leap into big-time college athletics.

Just for a bit of clarification "Mormons" and no there is no Mormon church, the official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we picked up the nickname from the Book of Mormon, we do not have a power hierarchy at all. We do have positions in the church, but it isn't a hierarchy at all. Organization? Yes. Power hierarchy? No. We all hold positions within the church and are not paid for them, and if I have my knowledge correct, one of the only positions in the church that is paid by the church is the Church Educational System, there might be another but I can't think of it. We hold what we term to be callings for a period of time and then are released and move to another calling where we hold stewardship over. Our positions are positions of stewardship, not power.

[Island_Style]

We just suck at sports.

All kidding aside...I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that there is no mainstream, officially Jewish university - athletics aside - on the scale of BYU, SMU, Notre Dame, etc. Judaism is not a very politically structured religion; we don't have religious figureheads like the Pope and Archbishops or a power hierarchy like the Mormon church to govern, mandate, or affiliate with universities. We are made up of a disparate range of sometimes vaguely defined denominations and movements - which have their own seminaries, but none with an official affiliation with a large, secular (in terms of educational aspirations) university. It takes a large school to field a competitive sports program to begin with, and it would take a school with very casual Jewish affiliation, like relaxed Sabbath rules and educational options beyond religious instruction, and a pool of potential students open to more than just the highly devout, to make the leap into big-time college athletics.

Just for a bit of clarification "Mormons" and no there is no Mormon church, the official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we picked up the nickname from the Book of Mormon, we do not have a power hierarchy at all. We do have positions in the church, but it isn't a hierarchy at all. Organization? Yes. Power hierarchy? No. We all hold positions within the church and are not paid for them, and if I have my knowledge correct, one of the only positions in the church that is paid by the church is the Church Educational System, there might be another but I can't think of it. We hold what we term to be callings for a period of time and then are released and move to another calling where we hold stewardship over. Our positions are positions of stewardship, not power.

Oddball, You are a Mormon? I grew up in the church. My mom and dad still follows and goes every Sunday. I come from a family of 7 and half are still very much involved.

[Waffles]

We just suck at sports.

All kidding aside...I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that there is no mainstream, officially Jewish university - athletics aside - on the scale of BYU, SMU, Notre Dame, etc. Judaism is not a very politically structured religion; we don't have religious figureheads like the Pope and Archbishops or a power hierarchy like the Mormon church to govern, mandate, or affiliate with universities. We are made up of a disparate range of sometimes vaguely defined denominations and movements - which have their own seminaries, but none with an official affiliation with a large, secular (in terms of educational aspirations) university. It takes a large school to field a competitive sports program to begin with, and it would take a school with very casual Jewish affiliation, like relaxed Sabbath rules and educational options beyond religious instruction, and a pool of potential students open to more than just the highly devout, to make the leap into big-time college athletics.

Just for a bit of clarification "Mormons" and no there is no Mormon church, the official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but we picked up the nickname from the Book of Mormon, we do not have a power hierarchy at all. We do have positions in the church, but it isn't a hierarchy at all. Organization? Yes. Power hierarchy? No. We all hold positions within the church and are not paid for them, and if I have my knowledge correct, one of the only positions in the church that is paid by the church is the Church Educational System, there might be another but I can't think of it. We hold what we term to be callings for a period of time and then are released and move to another calling where we hold stewardship over. Our positions are positions of stewardship, not power.

I think that's what I meant, I might not have phrased it all that well at 4 in the morning after a couple cocktails. This is what I was trying to refer to, to draw a contrast between a religion with organized, centralized leadership and, well, what we have.

[leopard88]

Well just think if there was a good Jewish university in sports they could take the QB and do the chair dance after every TD.

I'd love to see the hohra after a TD celebration. Hava Nagila!

Of course they'd be flagged (and if it were the NFL, say with Sage Rosenfels--fined).

However, a big reason too why they don't have it: There just aren't enough of us. Last estimate I heard, there's only about 17 million Jews worldwide--how many of those a) live in the states and not Israel, Europe, etc, are 18-22, c) play football and d) would be good enough to play at a D-1 scool. Something miniscule like that. There wouldn't be enough people to fill out all these schools and good enough to make these teams competitive. Also, that would assume that any Jew good enough to play would want to play for a Jewish school and not say, an SEC or Big 10 or Big 12 or whatever school.

And yes, the other reasons listed also play into it.

And I do remember hearing about an orthodox Jew (forget his name) who played hoops at Maryland (wasn't a starter or anything) but wouldn't play on the sabbath. He also played w/ a special yamaka that I guess was less prone to fall off during play.

I never had any intention of going to a school like Brandeis. If I were in that position, I still would've wanted to go to a school like Penn State. I'm just that kind of person. You know what I mean?

Focusing on the Jewish population as the sole source of players misses the point a bit. I'm willing to bet that the sports teams (and student bodies) at Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, etc. are not 100% Catholic. I also know that Jim McMahon is not a Mormon, but he still attended BYU. Presumably, a Jewish university that chose to place an emphasis on athletics would not be limited to enrolling Jewish athletes.

If a Jewish university wanted to develop a national athletic identity, it could probably do so. However, at this point, none of them have chosen to do so.

[gueman]

Well just think if there was a good Jewish university in sports they could take the QB and do the chair dance after every TD.

Focusing on the Jewish population as the sole source of players misses the point a bit. I'm willing to bet that the sports teams (and student bodies) at Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, etc. are not 100% Catholic. I also know that Jim McMahon is not a Mormon, but he still attended BYU. Presumably, a Jewish university that chose to place an emphasis on athletics would not be limited to enrolling Jewish athletes.

If a Jewish university wanted to develop a national athletic identity, it could probably do so. However, at this point, none of them have chosen to do so.

Well that was what I was trying to find out as why there hasn't been one to do so.

[lbr218]

Brandeis University Football?

I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking it.

It's because their mommies are too worried that their poor babies will break their backs playing rough and tumble football!

I applied to Brandeis... the only college I applied to without a football team. My mom wants me to meet a nice Jewish boy to marry! What an old tale.

[Lee.]

Brandeis University Football?

I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking it.

It's because their mommies are too worried that their poor babies will break their backs playing rough and tumble football!

I applied to Brandeis... the only college I applied to without a football team. My mom wants me to meet a nice Jewish boy to marry! What an old tale.

Hold on a second, missy. Is it this, or is it more of a predisposition towards academic over athletic pursuits?