Junior league hockey fight turns fatal

[OMMF]

I'm sorry, but if it's a criminal act outside the arena, then it has no place in sports.

Your quote.

Perhaps you'd like to clarify it because apparently I misunderstood your words. From what I read, my examples fit the sentence shown above.

Suggestion:

I'm sorry, but if it's a criminal act outside the arena but not specifically banned in the rules of a particular sport, then it has no place in sports.

That will be a better fit for your anti-hockey-fighting stance. Except that fighting isn't banned in hockey. So...

[Milo Meningocele]

I'm sorry, but if it's a criminal act outside the arena, then it has no place in sports.

Your quote.

Perhaps you'd like to clarify it because apparently I misunderstood your words. From what I read, my examples fit the sentence shown above.

Suggestion:

I'm sorry, but if it's a criminal act outside the arena but not specifically banned in the rules of a particular sport, then it has no place in sports.

That will be a better fit for your anti-hockey-fighting stance. Except that fighting isn't banned in hockey. So...

That doesn't make sense on any level:

Tackling in football is expected, consensual and regulated for safety. Similar horseplay is also permissible outside the stadium when both parties willfully participate.

Intentionally throwing a baseball at somebody is almost 100% never consensual. Since it's illegal by baseball rules, this would be punished on the diamond and on the street.

Fighting in hockey, while barely consensual (the culture having unfairly developed where a player is tagged as "soft" if he turns the other cheek) is in fact, "banned". That's why there are penalties to punish it. And as fights outside the rink need to be officially sanctioned to be legal (i.e. boxing, UFC, etc.), the same kind of behavior would absolutely be against the law on the street.

Your suggested correction to my stance contradicted itself, and just made my head hurt.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[lopernv]

There is something wrong with fighting in hockey. You wanna fight someone? The gym is right around the corner, you can go box a little bit. It makes no sense to me, and I do not think people realize how much a fight DOESN'T affect the game. It only makes the teams more chippy and it's more likely for a fight to break out later.

You really don't understand unless you've played the sport. Fighting is stupid, and the "code", which is, taking off your helmet before a fight, is really stupid. I'd rather protect the player's lives then get American fans interested in the game.

[Don]

i just think if the NHL rushes to judgment on this, and bans fighting or even stiffens any penalties involving fighting, itll be a mistake. you cant have a knee jerk reaction to everything. if you ban fighting cause one player died in a lower league, its just stupid honestly. i mean why drive cars? there are car crashes everyday. why fly planes? they can crash. bad things happen sometimes that are outside the realm of the norm. learn from them, but dont overreact.

[DelayedPenalty]

There is something wrong with fighting in hockey. You wanna fight someone? The gym is right around the corner, you can go box a little bit. It makes no sense to me, and I do not think people realize how much a fight DOESN'T affect the game. It only makes the teams more chippy and it's more likely for a fight to break out later.

You really don't understand unless you've played the sport. Fighting is stupid, and the "code", which is, taking off your helmet before a fight, is really stupid. I'd rather protect the player's lives then get American fans interested in the game.

I disagree. I think fighting serves a very legitimate purpose in hockey. When a team needs an energy boost or a boost in morale and a fight breaks out it gets everyone excited and back into the game. While I do agree that it may not be the best way to go about doing things, I don't think that there needs to be any changes to the penalty assessed for fighting, nor do I think it needs to be banned. Taking off the helmet is sign of respect between the players fighting, but busted knuckles is a lot better than a busted head.

This situation is an unfortunate one, but a player is just as likely to fall and hit his head playing the puck, getting checked, or even stepping out onto the ice! This very thing happened to Bill Masterton in the late 60's. Hockey is a risky sport, every time you step out onto the ice you take a risk. Any sport that involves sharp knives on feet and wooden weapons is risky.

[Breakwood]

You really don't understand unless you've played the sport. Fighting is stupid, and the "code", which is, taking off your helmet before a fight, is really stupid. I'd rather protect the player's lives then get American fans interested in the game.

I've played hockey for 7 years. Fighting has its place. If anything i'd argue it makes the game less chippy. Fights are usually the result of chippy play, and it ends up being the climax of all the stick work that has lead up to it. Usually after a fight the game opens up much more since the pests are shown that they wont be getting away with the cheap stuff.

This was a freak accident. Look back over the hundred+ years of hockey. This is the first person to die in a game from a fight. The odds of this happening are very slim. When someone chooses to play hockey they understand the possible risks, yet still choose to do it. No new rules could've stopped this accident.

[rams80]

Its perfect now, there is nothing wrong with fighting in hockey.

Besides the fact that it has lead to serious injuries and, in this case, death. As much as I disapprove of it, fighting will always have its place in hockey. Despite the "history" of fighting, it just seems so foolish to partake in.

Couldn't the same thing be said about summer training camp in American football at all levels? I seem to recall that there is an annual body count from this.

[Milo Meningocele]

i just think if the NHL rushes to judgment on this, and bans fighting or even stiffens any penalties involving fighting, itll be a mistake. you cant have a knee jerk reaction to everything. if you ban fighting cause one player died in a lower league, its just stupid honestly. i mean why drive cars? there are car crashes everyday. why fly planes? they can crash. bad things happen sometimes that are outside the realm of the norm. learn from them, but dont overreact.

The NHL has been looking at curbing or banning fighting for decades. Any response this warrants won't be kneejerk, this'll just be added to the body of evidence to consider.

The car/plane analogy is ridiculous. When used conscientiously and as intended, cars and planes serve a needed purpose and things go wrong quite rarely. It's only when you're violent or somehow irresponsible with them that the risk for harm increases. Similarly, fighting is a violent act that increases the risk for danger whether something bad actually happens or not--difference being, it's not a necessary thing in the first place.

I think fighting serves a very legitimate purpose in hockey. When a team needs an energy boost or a boost in morale and a fight breaks out it gets everyone excited and back into the game...

...This situation is an unfortunate one, but a player is just as likely to fall and hit his head playing the puck, getting checked, or even stepping out onto the ice! This very thing happened to Bill Masterton in the late 60's. Hockey is a risky sport, every time you step out onto the ice you take a risk. Any sport that involves sharp knives on feet and wooden weapons is risky.

That's lame all around. If a team needs a boost, that's when the captain or coach needs to do their job and rally his team, or somebody needs to make a big play on the ice. As for the "hockey is risky the second you step onto the ice" argument, see above. Do we really need to increase those risks with unnecessary violent acts?

I've played hockey for 7 years. Fighting has its place. If anything i'd argue it makes the game less chippy. Fights are usually the result of chippy play, and it ends up being the climax of all the stick work that has lead up to it. Usually after a fight the game opens up much more since the pests are shown that they wont be getting away with the cheap stuff.

This was a freak accident. Look back over the hundred+ years of hockey. This is the first person to die in a game from a fight. The odds of this happening are very slim. When someone chooses to play hockey they understand the possible risks, yet still choose to do it. No new rules could've stopped this accident.

No, hockey has given fighting its place by not doing something about it from the beginning. They've given it a place by celebrating the caveman aspect of the game, and perpetuating silly "codes". I guess they needed to, though--because the speed, teamwork and artistry of the game certainly aren't enough to love the game for, right? *sarcasm*

You gave more of the same lazy party line that Don did. The players shouldn't police the game, the officials and league should. If the penalties were truly stiff enough, the sticks would stay down. And if they didn't, someone should be made example of...by the league. It might take a while, but guys will learn. Yes, when someone chooses to play hockey they understand the risks....but fighting is not a part of hockey, it's a vigilante act that takes place outside the rules of the game. Harsher penalties could've prevented this. If guys knew they'd face a punishment far more serious than ejection, they'd eventually learn to keep the gloves on and play the game the way it was intended.

[Milo Meningocele]

Its perfect now, there is nothing wrong with fighting in hockey.

Besides the fact that it has lead to serious injuries and, in this case, death. As much as I disapprove of it, fighting will always have its place in hockey. Despite the "history" of fighting, it just seems so foolish to partake in.

Couldn't the same thing be said about summer training camp in American football at all levels? I seem to recall that there is an annual body count from this.

That's apples and oranges. Those deaths are almost (if not) 100% attributable to accidental negligence of heat stroke protocol, or as yet undiscovered congenital defects. Fighting is a willful activity.

[rams80]

Its perfect now, there is nothing wrong with fighting in hockey.

Besides the fact that it has lead to serious injuries and, in this case, death. As much as I disapprove of it, fighting will always have its place in hockey. Despite the "history" of fighting, it just seems so foolish to partake in.

Couldn't the same thing be said about summer training camp in American football at all levels? I seem to recall that there is an annual body count from this.

That's apples and oranges. Those deaths are almost (if not) 100% attributable to accidental negligence of heat stroke protocol, or as yet undiscovered congenital defects. Fighting is a willful activity.

Isn't joining the football team just as willful?

[Milo Meningocele]

Its perfect now, there is nothing wrong with fighting in hockey.

Besides the fact that it has lead to serious injuries and, in this case, death. As much as I disapprove of it, fighting will always have its place in hockey. Despite the "history" of fighting, it just seems so foolish to partake in.

Couldn't the same thing be said about summer training camp in American football at all levels? I seem to recall that there is an annual body count from this.

That's apples and oranges. Those deaths are almost (if not) 100% attributable to accidental negligence of heat stroke protocol, or as yet undiscovered congenital defects. Fighting is a willful activity.

Isn't joining the football team just as willful?

I think you know that's ridiculous.

[scottysprings]

The point some people are overlooking is that fighting is neither necessary nor productive. In football, tackling and hits are necessary to complete one of the objectives of the game- prevent the opposing team from reaching the endzone. There is no other way to go about it. Malicious hits are frowned upon and players are punished when they make them. In hockey, fighting does nothing to bring one's team closer to victory. Yes, you can play the morale boost card, but there are better and less foolish ways to go about achieving this result. There's a risk for injury in all sport but there's no reason to use that fact as a scapegoat to defend fighting. At least to me, fighting seems to contradict the whole meaning and purpose of sport.

[Don]

The point some people are overlooking is that fighting is neither necessary nor productive. In football, tackling and hits are necessary to complete one of the objectives of the game- prevent the opposing team from reaching the endzone. There is no other way to go about it. Malicious hits are frowned upon and players are punished when they make them. In hockey, fighting does nothing to bring one's team closer to victory. Yes, you can play the morale boost card, but there are better and less foolish ways to go about achieving this result. There's a risk for injury in all sport but there's no reason to use that fact as a scapegoat to defend fighting. At least to me, fighting seems to contradict the whole meaning and purpose of sport.

so youre telling me when Brian Dawkins or Ed Reed come over the middle and clobber a receiver, the crowd does not cheer, they say "oh that hits too hard" give me a break. the reference to football and tackling was to another poster who said that if something is illegal off the field of play it has no place inside the sport which if you went up and tackled someone on the street youre going to jail for assault.

The car/plane analogy is ridiculous. When used conscientiously and as intended, cars and planes serve a needed purpose and things go wrong quite rarely. It's only when you're violent or somehow irresponsible with them that the risk for harm increases. Similarly, fighting is a violent act that increases the risk for danger whether something bad actually happens or not--difference being, it's not a necessary thing in the first place.

exactly, this guy was violent and irresponsible in fighting in a league where fighting is outlawed. things rarely go wrong when fighting, the worst is a broken hand or some lost teeth or a broken nose except in this tragic example. fighting is within the realm of a hockey game. to me, the outrage in hockey should be the increased use of sticks in a violent manner, hits from behind, and high head hunting shots, NOT fighting. fighting is a proven deterrent against these types of incidents. as a Caps fan, we've seen Donald Brashear out for a few games this year, and when hes out, the runs against the star players of the Caps increase. they know they wont have to pay when hes not out there. i saw you reference the refereeing and the NHL Hockey Ops enforcing the game, and theyve collectively done nothing of the sort. because the league refuses to correctly police the actions of the players, the players have to do it themselves.

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, semi-sanctioned fighting is preferable to dirty plays. But whatever. Milo has a good argument here, it's well-thought out, I can see where he's coming from. I just disagree on unilaterally condemning fighting, because it's a dynamic and physical sport and dynamic physicality is going to inch its way in somehow, whether it's dropping the gloves or dirty stick work. (That phrase itself always strikes me as dirty.) However, one must wonder how much of Milo's stance is a function of supporting Detroit Eliteserien HC, where half the roster would rather run to the dressing room with their dicks tucked between their legs than drop the gloves. (It works for them, though.) Would fighting have a place in your heart if you supported the Flyers or the Ducks? Honest question. I wonder how much of people's hockey ideologies are sculpted by their respective teams.

[Don]

that may be true, i mean i have one of the teams that play a real finesse game but i am in full support of fighting, but again ive grown up with Dale Hunter, Craig Berube, Kevin Kaminski, etc etc on my team, so go figure.

[The_Admiral]

Devils fans seemed to compose a preponderance of the people who yearned for ties and low scoring after the lockout.

[DEAD!]

I think that Canada-Russia semi-final at the world juniors is a good endorsement of great hockey game without any fighting. There was great back and forth action, good physical play and dramatic finishes. That's the kind of stuff I like in a hockey game.

[Milo Meningocele]

so youre telling me when Brian Dawkins or Ed Reed come over the middle and clobber a receiver, the crowd does not cheer, they say "oh that hits too hard" give me a break.

It's not the point whether fans like it. It's a question of right and wrong, and furthermore willingly cheapening the game in order to sell it to the lowest common denominator.

exactly, this guy was violent and irresponsible in fighting in a league where fighting is outlawed.

Fighting is outlawed in the NHL, too. That's why there's a stiffer penalty for it than most infractions.

However, one must wonder how much of Milo's stance is a function of supporting Detroit Eliteserien HC, where half the roster would rather run to the dressing room with their dicks tucked between their legs than drop the gloves. (It works for them, though.) Would fighting have a place in your heart if you supported the Flyers or the Ducks? Honest question. I wonder how much of people's hockey ideologies are sculpted by their respective teams.

Actually, I'm not a Wings fan. I was when I was a kid, but now I don't really have a specific team--I just follow the league in general and have various rooting interests. But keep in mind, I grew up in the Norris Division, Probert and Kocur days.

[maz]

IMO, this is an extremely rare event in a league where fighting is banned anyways, and nothing should be changed at the NHL level. When is the last time in the 100+ years of hockey that anyone has died from fighting? Im not saying fighting is ok, but im also saying that even if you try to ban it, like it is in that league, it will still happen.

[Milo Meningocele]

IMO, this is an extremely rare event in a league where fighting is banned anyways, and nothing should be changed at the NHL level. When is the last time in the 100+ years of hockey that anyone has died from fighting? Im not saying fighting is ok, but im also saying that even if you try to ban it, like it is in that league, it will still happen.

Rare as it is, death is just one undesirable result of fighting. And sure, banning it won't stop 100% of fights. But when the consequences to both player and team become prohibitive, it can be all but eliminated.