The Pirates in the bottom

[NJTank]

This franchise is a joke

At least the Pirates never lost massive divison leads in the final month of the baseball season two years in a row. Now that would be embarrasing.

Or blowing a 3-0 lead in the ALCS riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

[infrared41]

This franchise is a joke

At least the Pirates never lost massive divison leads in the final month of the baseball season two years in a row. Now that would be embarrasing.

Or blowing a 3-0 lead in the ALCS riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

I don't think it's quite the same. The Yankees had won 26 World Series titles before that. My guess is none of their fans were on suicide watch after ALCS game 7 in 2004. They just went on with their lives. I think it's called perspective.

[infrared41]

All I can tell Pirates fans is this. 20 years ago the same things were being said about The Indians. Two years ago the same things were being said about The Rays. Hell, 40 years ago The Steelers were The NFL's version of today's Lions or Bengals.

They'll get it together eventually.

[Lee.]

Sad, but true. Theyre laughed at around here. A joke. Fans of them like me either learn to laugh along, or get pushed closer and closer to jumping off the fan boat.

In fact, if you make fun of the Pirates to a Pirates fan, we will join you. In fact, we're better than anyone at making fun of them... we need something to do while watching their games.

Personally, Im starting to wonder why I go to games myself, other than for the experience. Ive been to PNC Park 4 to 10 times a year since it opened, and have experienced alot in the way of wierd things, different kinds of weather, and some great wins as well as epic failures. But really, im starting to wonder why I go anymore to a park where I and everyone goes in knowing that we will probably lose. Where theres such a small crowd, minimal excitement, and its quieter than if you were on the closed-to-traffic-on-game-day Clemente Bridge beyond Center Field.

So just out of curiosity, if a Nationals player starts to make some noise in the NL this year, and it turns out he's more popular around the league than, say, McLouth, are you going to Crosby it up about that as well? I just want to know where you stand on this whole thing.

Youre a funny, funny man.

I feel it's a valid question.

Why do you never stop chirping?

It's a gift.

[Maz]

All I can tell Pirates fans is this. 20 years ago the same things were being said about The Indians. Two years ago the same things were being said about The Rays. Hell, 40 years ago The Steelers were The NFL's version of today's Lions or Bengals.

Have any of those teams had 15 straight losing seasons and the worst management in the league?

[infrared41]

All I can tell Pirates fans is this. 20 years ago the same things were being said about The Indians. Two years ago the same things were being said about The Rays. Hell, 40 years ago The Steelers were The NFL's version of today's Lions or Bengals.

Have any of those teams had 15 straight losing seasons and the worst management in the league?

The Indians did. Not one winning season from 1968 until 1986. Then again from 1987 to 1994. And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more. Indians management was a disaster until Jacobs bought the team.

EDIT: Just looked it up. 4 winning seasons from 1960 until 1994. That's pretty bad. In that same span The Pirates won 3 World Series and made the playoffs as well. See? It could be worse.

[NJTank]

Wanna see bad The Phillies 1918-1948

1 Winning Season

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/

[jkrdevil]

All I can tell Pirates fans is this. 20 years ago the same things were being said about The Indians. Two years ago the same things were being said about The Rays. Hell, 40 years ago The Steelers were The NFL's version of today's Lions or Bengals.

They'll get it together eventually.

Now all the Pirates need is for their owner to die and a former showgirl to inherit team with the intentions of moving the team. In order to do that she tries to put together the worst team ever comprised of convicts, washed up players and no names. Only these players don't turn out to be to bad and after they learn about her plans they come together to win the Division.

They can turn it around just like the Indians did.

[elkerzox]

They needed to write an article about this? Isn't this common knowledge?

you would think...but lots of people just don't pay attention.

plus...its almost somewhat interesting.

[TalktoChuck]

Well the Pirates have made the first step in rehabilitation. They admitted they have a problem. Thats a start. Hopefully now they'll do something about it.

[HedleyLamarr]

All I can tell Pirates fans is this. 20 years ago the same things were being said about The Indians. Two years ago the same things were being said about The Rays. Hell, 40 years ago The Steelers were The NFL's version of today's Lions or Bengals.

They'll get it together eventually.

Now all the Pirates need is for their owner to die and a former showgirl to inherit team with the intentions of moving the team. In order to do that she tries to put together the worst team ever comprised of convicts, washed up players and no names. Only these players don't turn out to be to bad and after they learn about her plans they come together to win the Division.

They can turn it around just like the Indians did.

"This guy is dead!"

"Then cross him off the list......"

[Wheelhouse]

So just out of curiosity, if a Nationals player starts to make some noise in the NL this year, and it turns out he's more popular around the league than, say, McLouth, are you going to Crosby it up about that as well? I just want to know where you stand on this whole thing.

As long as McClouth is leading said Nats player in RBIs and total runs scored, I'd have no problem with the other player being more popular.

[Mac the Knife]

With that said...am I the only one who thinks that the Pirates, ever since the Sid Bream Slide, have just stopped trying? I mean, that plus Bonds left and that franchise went directly to hell.

No, in fact if anything, you'd be one of the few who didn't believe that. The team's now had back-to-back ownership groups who realize that there's more to be made by letting the franchise fester on the field, collecting revenue sharing $$$ while not improving the product, playing a neat shell game with their roster and always saying that "our farm system looks good" in hopes of jerking around the fans to stick around a little while longer, just in case the kids in Altoona turn out to be MLB star material.

Bitter? No, I'm not bitter or anything...

[ZapRowsdower8]

Well the Pirates have made the first step in rehabilitation. They admitted they have a problem. Thats a start. Hopefully now they'll do something about it.

I think this is the most important thing I can take from this off season. However, looking at the potential lineup makes me think this might be the worst team in that 16 year run of losing seasons.

[Mac the Knife]

Well the Pirates have made the first step in rehabilitation. They admitted they have a problem. Thats a start. Hopefully now they'll do something about it.

I think this is the most important thing I can take from this off season. However, looking at the potential lineup makes me think this might be the worst team in that 16 year run of losing seasons.

"Admitting you have a problem" is great and all, but when you have no clue as to how to fix it, it isn't very helpful. Having been a Pirate fan as a kid and up until the last 2-3 years or so (when I finally gave up the ghost out of sheer frustration), the situation pains me - not because the franchise continues its on-field woes with no end in sight, but rather because the people of the Pittsburgh area have by and large accepted the team's fate year after year, and continue - to any extent - to support it by buying tickets to games, watching games on local TV, listening to them on local radio, etc.

As things currently stand, the Pirates have hit a weird sweet spot - they have just enough die-hard fans to come out to the park, just enough local media revenue, and just enough revenue sharing from other clubs that an effort to actually win on the field proves counterproductive: the gains from additional ticket sales simply wouldn't offset the costs involved.

In my view there are only a few ways this can, or ever will, be fixed for the Pirates:

(1) MLB instituting both a salary cap and a salary floor, coupled with comprehensive revenue sharing among its 30 clubs, similar to what the NFL does but including local media (TV, radio) revenues as well. If the playing field is leveled on both sides of this equation, the Pirates organization could compete with competent management.

(2) An ownership change. But not just any ownership change, as has been the case since the Galbreath's (sp?) owned the club. The Pirates need a fire-breathing, Steinbrenner-like owner who absolutely won't tolerate mediocrity, and is not only ready - but willing - to blow the house up and start from scratch. To my knowledge there's only one man who fits that description and has the kind of pedigree that implies it could happen sooner rather than later... that man's name is Mark Cuban.

(3) An organized boycott by fans against not just the Pirate organization, but any Pittsburgh-based business that associates themselves with the franchise. Think for example PNC wouldn't be applying some subtle pressure for the Pirates to put a more competitive baseball product on the field if suddenly 10,000 depositors closed their accounts and moved their business to S&T, Mellon, etc.? Think Pirates ownership would get the hint if they started drawing late 1970's/early 1980's Oakland A's-like attendance (i.e., 500 a game)? Think things would change if suddenly stores in Century III Mall that have Pirate merchandise for sale all can't move it?

The Steelers are the #1 team in Pittsburgh for a simple reason: they win. They don't win the Super Bowl every year obviously, but the team historically has been competitive, year-in, year-out. The Penguins vaulted themselves over the Pirates in fans' estimation for the same reason - they've demonstrated a commitment to winning, or at least putting forth a serious effort to be competitive year-in, year-out. The result? The Steelers are #2 in NFL merchandise sales, sell out their stadium at every home game and are absolutely beloved. The Penguins will move into a new arena that will place them among the top five in NHL revenues, draw exceptionally well in a 40-plus year old masoleum of an arena today, and turned Pittsburgh into a town that appreciates the sport of hockey.

The Pirates had this type of loyalty in the 1970's. They pissed it away thanks to 25 years of inept ownership and management (Syd Thrift excepted, and even that got :censored:ed up at the end)... and the only way to get it back is to win - and win NOW. I read on the PG's web site how Coonnelly (sp?) said they weren't prepared to go into the free agent market in 2009 as they weren't looking for a "band-aid fix." But that, coupled with a long-term strategy, is exactly what's needed: go ahead and put the band-aid on the bullet wound. Sign some guys that actually give fans a hope - any hope - that the team is serious about wanting to compete. Invest in now, and for christ's sake save (in the form of your upcoming young talent) for later. Stop trading the Aramis Ramirez/Jason Kendall/Brian Giles/Jason Bay/insert next budding star here's for a fistful of beans that might, might develop into MLB-level talent five years down the road. That 's really, really old to Pirate fans.

In short, build for the future by all means, but put a plan in place to win now, no matter the financial cost. Show a commitment to winning both now and in the future. And if ownership doesn't have pockets deep enough to accomplish this, sell the team to a Mark Cuban-style owner who does, and who's prepared to show it.

[Maz]

Is it wierd that hearing of the epic failure of the Indians and Phillies makes me feel worse? Like, its better knowing you cant get any worse than knowing that, yes, its possible to be even worse. This franchise was once one of the proudest in the MLB, and now, its a joke. Its depressing for both those who have seen the glory days, and those like me who have never seen a winning baseball in their lifetime, and dont expect to ever see it.

[tp49]

Well the Pirates have made the first step in rehabilitation. They admitted they have a problem. Thats a start. Hopefully now they'll do something about it.

I think this is the most important thing I can take from this off season. However, looking at the potential lineup makes me think this might be the worst team in that 16 year run of losing seasons.

(1) MLB instituting both a salary cap and a salary floor, coupled with comprehensive revenue sharing among its 30 clubs, similar to what the NFL does but including local media (TV, radio) revenues as well. If the playing field is leveled on both sides of this equation, the Pirates organization could compete with competent management.

MLB should mandate that the revenue sharing money the teams already receive be reinvested into the team. It's clear as day that the Pittsburgh ownership is pocketing the revenue sharing funds as are other teams namely the Marlins. If ownership then continues to gut the team then MLB should force the owners to sell.

[tBBP]

Well the Pirates have made the first step in rehabilitation. They admitted they have a problem. Thats a start. Hopefully now they'll do something about it.

I think this is the most important thing I can take from this off season. However, looking at the potential lineup makes me think this might be the worst team in that 16 year run of losing seasons.

"Admitting you have a problem" is great and all, but when you have no clue as to how to fix it, it isn't very helpful. Having been a Pirate fan as a kid and up until the last 2-3 years or so (when I finally gave up the ghost out of sheer frustration), the situation pains me - not because the franchise continues its on-field woes with no end in sight, but rather because the people of the Pittsburgh area have by and large accepted the team's fate year after year, and continue - to any extent - to support it by buying tickets to games, watching games on local TV, listening to them on local radio, etc.

As things currently stand, the Pirates have hit a weird sweet spot - they have just enough die-hard fans to come out to the park, just enough local media revenue, and just enough revenue sharing from other clubs that an effort to actually win on the field proves counterproductive: the gains from additional ticket sales simply wouldn't offset the costs involved.

In my view there are only a few ways this can, or ever will, be fixed for the Pirates:

(1) MLB instituting both a salary cap and a salary floor, coupled with comprehensive revenue sharing among its 30 clubs, similar to what the NFL does but including local media (TV, radio) revenues as well. If the playing field is leveled on both sides of this equation, the Pirates organization could compete with competent management.

(2) An ownership change. But not just any ownership change, as has been the case since the Galbreath's (sp?) owned the club. The Pirates need a fire-breathing, Steinbrenner-like owner who absolutely won't tolerate mediocrity, and is not only ready - but willing - to blow the house up and start from scratch. To my knowledge there's only one man who fits that description and has the kind of pedigree that implies it could happen sooner rather than later... that man's name is Mark Cuban.

(3) An organized boycott by fans against not just the Pirate organization, but any Pittsburgh-based business that associates themselves with the franchise. Think for example PNC wouldn't be applying some subtle pressure for the Pirates to put a more competitive baseball product on the field if suddenly 10,000 depositors closed their accounts and moved their business to S&T, Mellon, etc.? Think Pirates ownership would get the hint if they started drawing late 1970's/early 1980's Oakland A's-like attendance (i.e., 500 a game)? Think things would change if suddenly stores in Century III Mall that have Pirate merchandise for sale all can't move it?

The Steelers are the #1 team in Pittsburgh for a simple reason: they win. They don't win the Super Bowl every year obviously, but the team historically has been competitive, year-in, year-out. The Penguins vaulted themselves over the Pirates in fans' estimation for the same reason - they've demonstrated a commitment to winning, or at least putting forth a serious effort to be competitive year-in, year-out. The result? The Steelers are #2 in NFL merchandise sales, sell out their stadium at every home game and are absolutely beloved. The Penguins will move into a new arena that will place them among the top five in NHL revenues, draw exceptionally well in a 40-plus year old masoleum of an arena today, and turned Pittsburgh into a town that appreciates the sport of hockey.

The Pirates had this type of loyalty in the 1970's. They pissed it away thanks to 25 years of inept ownership and management (Syd Thrift excepted, and even that got :censored:ed up at the end)... and the only way to get it back is to win - and win NOW. I read on the PG's web site how Coonnelly (sp?) said they weren't prepared to go into the free agent market in 2009 as they weren't looking for a "band-aid fix." But that, coupled with a long-term strategy, is exactly what's needed: go ahead and put the band-aid on the bullet wound. Sign some guys that actually give fans a hope - any hope - that the team is serious about wanting to compete. Invest in now, and for christ's sake save (in the form of your upcoming young talent) for later. Stop trading the Aramis Ramirez/Jason Kendall/Brian Giles/Jason Bay/insert next budding star here's for a fistful of beans that might, might develop into MLB-level talent five years down the road. That 's really, really old to Pirate fans.

In short, build for the future by all means, but put a plan in place to win now, no matter the financial cost. Show a commitment to winning both now and in the future. And if ownership doesn't have pockets deep enough to accomplish this, sell the team to a Mark Cuban-style owner who does, and who's prepared to show it.

Damn, Mac...you had to mention Century III Mall, didn't you??? Brotha already homesick as is...and you go and mention the name of the mall that was practically right ouside the back door of my apartment!

(FWIW, over the course of the past two years, I don't think they've moved all that much Pirates gear other than the 5950s. But then I ain't been there in almost 10 months, either. All that gon' change real soon though...)

[Mac the Knife]

Damn, Mac...you had to mention Century III Mall, didn't you??? Brotha already homesick as is...and you go and mention the name of the mall that was practically right ouside the back door of my apartment!

Well, I could'a mentioned Sewickley or Sto-Rox, but thought I'd show that even 15 years removed from the area, I still have some game when it comes to remembering places.

[Camden Crazy]

It definitely doesn't seem like they're trying to do anything to get better.

Look at the Orioles, for example. Just as bad, but they've brought in a ton of young talent in the last year and a half and now have one of the best minor league systems in the majors. Other than the Bay trade, the Pirates haven't done much, and they really didn't get any big time prospects there either. After Alvarez, McCutchen, and Brad Lincoln, they don't have much.

Not to mention they passed over Matt Wieters for Daniel Moskos because of money issues (thanks, by the way).