CFL to the USA... again?

[DG_ThenNowForever]

CFL...focus on Canadian expansion

NFL...focus on American expansion (actual necessity of expansion debateable)

Leave it at that.

Hey, the CFL US Expansion worked wonders last time, right?

Baltimore was a success... without the way the fans supported the Stallions you probably wouldn't have seen the Ravens as soon as you did - if ever.

I think expansion to the US could work if they kept it to close-to-the-border college football towns; Syracuse, Boise off the top of my head

Rochester's a better choice than Syracuse. It's an hour closer to the border, and has an economy (as much as it is).

What about North Dakota?

[JQK]

I don't think the CFL is going to make the U.S. mistake again. However, i do think we do need to prepare for an NFL team in Toronto.

It's just reading tea leaves at this point, but the NFL in Toronto seems to be the elephant in the room...

[Lee.]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

Well what the hell do I know about North Dakota?

And NFL in Toronto seems like it would get you the same things NFL in Buffalo does, but in a worse arena.

[rams80]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

Well what the hell do I know about North Dakota?

And NFL in Toronto seems like it would get you the same things NFL in Buffalo does, but in a worse arena.

Isn't Ralph Wilson one of the oldest stadia in the league?

[NEW.ERA]

I'm not for this at all the CFL is at it's strongest point it has ever been and that's a stretch by the least but still any expanding out of Canada is a death trap

ESPN for one would not get there hands in it like the did in the mid 90's............... maybe Versus hahaha but the CFL is fine as it is expand through out Canada and no where else.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

Well what the hell do I know about North Dakota?

And NFL in Toronto seems like it would get you the same things NFL in Buffalo does, but in a worse arena.

Isn't Ralph Wilson one of the oldest stadia in the league?

Depends on what you mean by old. The structure, sure. But the insides were replaced about ten years ago.

[rams80]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

Well what the hell do I know about North Dakota?

And NFL in Toronto seems like it would get you the same things NFL in Buffalo does, but in a worse arena.

Isn't Ralph Wilson one of the oldest stadia in the league?

Depends on what you mean by old. The structure, sure. But the insides were replaced about ten years ago.

Hmm...I was just curious, since I was under the impression that the Bills were demanding a new stadium.

[KevinMcD]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

And Gitlin, forget North Dakota. Fargo only has 180k for a population, a la Regina, but I doubt they could squeeze a CFL-sized field into the FargoDome.

Well what the hell do I know about North Dakota?

And NFL in Toronto seems like it would get you the same things NFL in Buffalo does, but in a worse arena.

Isn't Ralph Wilson one of the oldest stadia in the league?

Depends on what you mean by old. The structure, sure. But the insides were replaced about ten years ago.

Hmm...I was just curious, since I was under the impression that the Bills were demanding a new stadium.

No, just that people believe that the only way the Bills stay in Buffalo after Wilson's gone is with a new stadium. However that is in the future. A nice new stadium on the waterfront would be great for downtown, or even in NF to keep Canadians happy, but NYS, Erie County, or the City of Buffalo has no money to fund this.

As for the CFL, it would be nice to see CFL in the USA again, but I don't think it would work. People like NCAA or NFL too much to root for another team in another league. If anywhere put teams in smaller boarder cities large enough good stadiums (Syracuse, Boise, Ann Arbor, Madison, Pullman)

[Bleujayone]

I always felt that a city getting the privilege of hosting a professional sports team should be the reward for having a large population, a viable local economy, thriving (or at least stable ) industry, and renewable infrastructure. The Buffalo area has none of these, in fact I'd argue the majority of WNY has been on the downswing for decades.

When Buffalo was first awarded the Bills (and later the Sabres & Braves) they had a metro population of about 600,000. The city's population has now shrunk down to just over 200,000. Next to Green Bay (which does have the Milwaukee to back it up) it is the smallest NFL market. I believe Jacksonville is next in line in front. Industry is a joke in the city and leadership is abominable. Nobody invests in locating to Buffalo. The city doesn't even assist in taking advantage of the natural resources they have for assets. They have a waterfront which has no activity, their side of Niagara Falls has no real attraction. (by comparison the Canadian side has tons of attractions and business.) The downtown is so badly depressed, they don't encourage people to visit it, which in turn further damages the remaining businesses. Yes hey have other cities in the area that also throw in support, but these cities too are also depressed.

The 1990's brought about a disturbing trend in that professional sport franchises would demand these exhortation stadiums to be built by their host communities or risk losing them to other locals that would invest money. The results were hundreds of millions of taxpayers dollars being used to build something that did not benefit the majority of citizen, only a few people, and even then if you were not the team's owner, you still had to pay just to enjoy the privilege of sitting in there. People got it backwards you don't pay to keep a sports team, the sports team comes to your community to make money off your population. If a few teams want to relocate for greener pasture- let them. If your city is really that viable another opportunity will come your city's way. They city is made to benefit the many not the few. In this case Buffalo doesn't have the means to keep it's city viable even without pro sports. At this point, which would be better; spending $500+ million to fix the city's infrastructure, revitalize industry and renew the community, or spending the amount to build a stadium to host a football team in an area that's losing population, jobs, and overall- money. The decision is a no-brainer.

A city like Buffalo couldn't wisely afford to build such a stadium in the area, even if they had the money at their disposal, which they don't. It is a dying metro area probably destines to become a border city living off the business of Canadian shopper, and eventually a seedy casino or two. Any potential for the city to have a major rebound has either been a victim of circumstance or outright squandered, People have exercised the myth that for a city to be attractive for other business or potential population relocation, they need major league level sports teams. And that's what it is- a myth. The cities that are the most prosperous in the States do not host such teams. They might have minor league teams, but beyond that they invest their money where it's needed.

Buffalo is going to eventually lose the Bills to someplace else. For that matter I predict they're going to eventually trade down an NHL team for an AHL one. Sorry for the doomsday prediction, but that said, while a CFL franchise might sound like a viable alternative to having no pro team, it still does not alleviate the area's economical disease. At best it would relieve a couple of symptoms. However, I just do not see the same rabid support for a CFL team as I do for the NFL. I think fans would sooner drive to Toronto to support an NFL team than stay home and support a CFL one.

[BlueSky]

Lots of good debate. I don't see the CFL succeeding in the U.S., but at least this thread gives me another excuse to trot out one of my favorite sports team names of all time:

[CC97]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

Goodell himself cited outrageously high ticket prices as the main problem there -- I may have gone myself if they weren't selling upper deck seats for $100 each. The Grey Cup was cheaper.

[Lee.]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

Goodell himself cited outrageously high ticket prices as the main problem there -- I may have gone myself if they weren't selling upper deck seats for $100 each. The Grey Cup was cheaper.

I'm sure that had you shown up on gameday with some kind of proof that you were a Rogers customer in any way, you would have been comped a ticket or two.

Many of the filled seats for those games were flat out giveaways.

[CC97]

Therecent piss=poor attendance at Rogers Center gives the rest of the country hope that a Toronto NFL team won't happen.

Goodell himself cited outrageously high ticket prices as the main problem there -- I may have gone myself if they weren't selling upper deck seats for $100 each. The Grey Cup was cheaper.

I'm sure that had you shown up on gameday with some kind of proof that you were a Rogers customer in any way, you would have been comped a ticket or two.

Many of the filled seats for those games were flat out giveaways.

Many but not most, and as has been established, this was due to the fact that the prices were too high. People wanted to go, the interest was there (they still showed up didn't they?), but the cost was too great.

[DEAD!]

Lots of good debate. I don't see the CFL succeeding in the U.S., but at least this thread gives me another excuse to trot out one of my favorite sports team names of all time:

... and one of the greatest renditions of O Canada ever

[rangerfan94]

I live in the U.S.A. and to be honest, I enjoy the CFL over the NFL. We get a few games on tv here in N.Y. and I love the wide open play...110 yard field...25 deep endzones.....3 downs.. its great football in my opinion. One thing I have a question about. How does a team get one point for something other than an extra point kick ?.

[Breakwood]

I live in the U.S.A. and to be honest, I enjoy the CFL over the NFL. We get a few games on tv here in N.Y. and I love the wide open play...110 yard field...25 deep endzones.....3 downs.. its great football in my opinion. One thing I have a question about. How does a team get one point for something other than an extra point kick ?.

Basically you get a point if you force the other team to take a touchback. There are some instances where this doesn't happen though here's a more precise description: Rouge

[Brian in Boston]

When Buffalo was first awarded the Bills (and later the Sabres & Braves) they had a metro population of about 600,000. The city's population has now shrunk down to just over 200,000.

Buffalo's municipal population is 282,864. In other words, closer to 300,000 than 200,000. Further, the Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY metropolitan area population is 1,128,183.

Next to Green Bay (which does have the Milwaukee to back it up) it is the smallest NFL market.

When it comes to municipal population, Buffalo (282,864) is the second-smallest NFL market after Green Bay (101,100)... but more than doubles Green Bay's muni population. When it comes to metro area population, both Green Bay, WI (301,131) and New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA (1,030,363) are smaller NFL markets than Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY (1,128,183)... Green Bay decidely so.

As for Green Bay having "Milwaukee to back it up"... Buffalo has Toronto to back it up. The driving distance from Lambeau Field to downtown Milwaukee is 118 miles. The driving distance from Ralph Wilson Stadium to downtown Toronto is actually shorter: 110 miles. Milwaukee adds a municipal population of 583,624 and a metro area population of 1,544,398 to Green Bay's fan-base. Toronto adds a municipal population of 2,503,281 and a metro area population of 5,555,912 to Buffalo's fan-base. No one is suggesting that the Packers need to move to Milwaukee in order to take advantage of that city/metro area's population base, so why should it be necessary for the Bills to move to Toronto to take advantage of the population base in that city/metro area?

Further, Buffalo can also draw fans from the City of Rochester (212,481)/Rochester, NY metro area (1,030,495) just 80 miles away. Think of this as being similar to the Packers drawing fans from the City of Madison (220,332)/Madison, WI metro area (555,626). That said, in the spirit of full disclosure, downtown Madison is over 200 driving miles from Lambeau Field.

Add up those numbers and the Bills' potential target audience population (combined muni populations = 2,998,686 / combined metro populations = 7,714,590) is considerably larger than that of the Packers (combined muni population = 905,056 / combined metro population = 2,401,155).

Bottom line? I'm just saying that population statistics and rankings - as well as Buffalo's proximity to both Toronto and Rochester already - don't really back-up a contention that the Bills need to be shifted to Toronto in order to take advantage of a significant potential fan-base.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

You know, I was going to say how comparing Buffalo's former metro population to it's current city population is apples to oranges, but I wouldn't have gotten nearly in depth as that.

Incredible, sir. You deserve a round of applause.

[HedleyLamarr]

When Buffalo was first awarded the Bills (and later the Sabres & Braves) they had a metro population of about 600,000. The city's population has now shrunk down to just over 200,000.

Buffalo's municipal population is 282,864. In other words, closer to 300,000 than 200,000. Further, the Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY metropolitan area population is 1,128,183.

Next to Green Bay (which does have the Milwaukee to back it up) it is the smallest NFL market.

When it comes to municipal population, Buffalo (282,864) is the second-smallest NFL market after Green Bay (101,100)... but more than doubles Green Bay's muni population. When it comes to metro area population, both Green Bay, WI (301,131) and New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA (1,030,363) are smaller NFL markets than Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY (1,128,183)... Green Bay decidely so.

As for Green Bay having "Milwaukee to back it up"... Buffalo has Toronto to back it up. The driving distance from Lambeau Field to downtown Milwaukee is 118 miles. The driving distance from Ralph Wilson Stadium to downtown Toronto is actually shorter: 110 miles. Milwaukee adds a municipal population of 583,624 and a metro area population of 1,544,398 to Green Bay's fan-base. Toronto adds a municipal population of 2,503,281 and a metro area population of 5,555,912 to Buffalo's fan-base. No one is suggesting that the Packers need to move to Milwaukee in order to take advantage of that city/metro area's population base, so why should it be necessary for the Bills to move to Toronto to take advantage of the population base in that city/metro area?

Further, Buffalo can also draw fans from the City of Rochester (212,481)/Rochester, NY metro area (1,030,495) just 80 miles away. Think of this as being similar to the Packers drawing fans from the City of Madison (220,332)/Madison, WI metro area (555,626). That said, in the spirit of full disclosure, downtown Madison is over 200 driving miles from Lambeau Field.

Add up those numbers and the Bills' potential target audience population (combined muni populations = 2,998,686 / combined metro populations = 7,714,590) is considerably larger than that of the Packers (combined muni population = 905,056 / combined metro population = 2,401,155).

Bottom line? I'm just saying that population statistics and rankings - as well as Buffalo's proximity to both Toronto and Rochester already - don't really back-up a contention that the Bills need to be shifted to Toronto in order to take advantage of a significant potential fan-base.

The difference between Milwaukee and Toronto "backing up" Green Bay and Buffalo, respectively, is that the Packers have always been "Milwaukee's (or Madison's or Eau Claire's or any other town in Wisconsin) Team". People have been making the drive from Milwaukee to Green Bay to watch Packers games since the 1930's. Toronto doesn't hold that same amount of sentiment for the Bills. The Bills might be the most popular NFL team in Toronto, but it's not going to be a very overwelming margain like it'd be in Milwaukee. If the Bills do make the move to Toronto, more folks there will become Bills fans for the sheer point that the Bills would be "Toronto's Team" in the NFL. And by that virtue, the Bills' fanbase could exponentially rise, due to the main point that all Canadians could take in the Bills as "Canada's Team", such as the Blue Jays and Raptors. Given the choice, Canadians would root for a team in their own country over the team that's just across the border. Buffalo might gain the instant 5.5 million fans in metro Toronto, but their potential audience can be feasibly projected to Canada's entire population.....especially the eastern half of the nation.

Of course, the potential fanbase isn't what interests the Bills moving to Toronto.....it's the money. Toronto has a ton of money to offer that Buffalo doesn't. Toronto has the corporate money that Buffalo doesn't.