Peter Gammons

[jkrdevil]

I'm not going to be one to advocate a team to move. It isn't my decision and to do so on here I think is a dick move to those that are fans of the team. The ones that are fans aren't any less of fans than those of other teams.

Also, selfishly as right now I live in the area and have family that lives down here now I like the fact that I can go to a baseball game without having my wallet raped when I walk through the door. Something that can't happen to me in NY. I went to last night's Yankees-Rays game and was able to get great seats for a reasonable price compared to Yankee stadium (Still if you are bringing a family of 4 they were probably out of your price range). Despite the result last night (which went against the way I was rooting) I still had a great time and the atmosphere was good.

As for the situation there are a few strikes that the team is up against.

-The region itself. It is to put it nicely it is a retirement area. There are a lot of transplants from elsewhere with pre-existing loyalties. People don't give those up. My family is an example. we moved from NJ. I'm not giving up my loyalties to the teams up there, and most importantly the memories I have rooting for those teams. Further more the area was hit hardest by the recession. Mainly because the bulk of the economy was built on the housing bubble itself.

-Location, infrastructure, and Stadium. The stadium is a permanent dome stadium built right before the "Camden Yards" style ballparks. It is located not in Tampa, but about 30 minutes south in St. Pete. The area has basically no mass transit infrastructure, which limits crowds coming out especially on weeknights.

-The team originally should have been put in the National League. I don't why baseball just didn't leave the Brewers in the AL, and put the Rays in the NL east as the 6-team division. Outside of giving the AL southeast representation, which is a archaic notion to begin with because at the time of expansion the AL and NL were basically already operated as one league instead of two separate. Sure while you would have the same thing that happens with the Red Sox and Yankees now just with the Mets and Phillies instead you would also have more natural rivalries for the team with Florida and Atlanta. Right now the closest team in the division to Tampa is Baltimore, which is half the country north-south away. That leads to a lot of meh feelings to the other teams in the division outside of the top two. Especially when the team sucked the first 10 years of existed.

-The original ownership was terrible. We are talking about Pirates type ownership originally. I mean compare the level of investment between the Diamondbacks and the Devil Rays each of their first couple of years. There was a commitment by Arizona, Tampa just tried to get old players in hopes they would draw a couple extra people. That turns people off and takes more than 3 years to turn around. I will say the current ownership is a lot more committed.

-As for Gammons, yes he is a big Red Sox homer. When they lose there is some bitterness.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

How many of you would be willing to drive an hour to and from the stadium on a work/school night with your family?

I started to post something along these lines earlier, but got distracted and ended up doing the cliched "Tropicana Dome sucks!" post.

I don't know if people have driven to a Rays game, but it's not easy. Due to how spread out the Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater Metro area is, Tropicana Field is a huge hassle to get to, especially on a weekday. There's no good public transportation that serves the stadium, so your only option to see a home game is to brave Tampa Bay area rush hour traffic. It's not fun, and I don't blame more people for not doing it.

[raysox]

How many of you would be willing to drive an hour to and from the stadium on a work/school night with your family?

I started to post something along these lines earlier, but got distracted and ended up doing the cliched "Tropicana Dome sucks!" post.

I don't know if people have driven to a Rays game, but it's not easy. Due to how spread out the Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater Metro area is, Tropicana Field is a huge hassle to get to, especially on a weekday. There's no good public transportation that serves the stadium, so your only option to see a home game is to brave Tampa Bay area rush hour traffic. It's not fun, and I don't blame more people for not doing it.

I live about 20 miles out, and it takes 45 minutes to get down there, and thats using like highways and stuff. Like I said, its location of the stadium built 10 years before a team played their first game.

I'm going tomorrow, so thats cool.

[HedleyLamarr]

How many of you would be willing to drive an hour to and from the stadium on a work/school night with your family?

I started to post something along these lines earlier, but got distracted and ended up doing the cliched "Tropicana Dome sucks!" post.

I don't know if people have driven to a Rays game, but it's not easy. Due to how spread out the Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater Metro area is, Tropicana Field is a huge hassle to get to, especially on a weekday. There's no good public transportation that serves the stadium, so your only option to see a home game is to brave Tampa Bay area rush hour traffic. It's not fun, and I don't blame more people for not doing it.

I've used the Atlanta comparison to describe the Rays' situation.

It's akin to leaving your downtown Atlanta workplace at 5pm, picking up your wife and kids in Roswell, then driving to Duluth to watch the game, staying for 3 hours, then braving the post-game traffic to hopefully get home around 11pm.

Families aren't going to do this 20-81 times a year, and even single folks would be hard-pressed to make that haul for half the games.

[The_Admiral]

Then maybe there shouldn't be professional sports teams in metropolitan areas that wouldn't know what urban planning was if it sodomized them if all you guys are going to do is complain about how untenable attending a game is in a thousand-mile suburb.

[Gothamite]

Then maybe there shouldn't be professional sports teams in metropolitan areas that wouldn't know what urban planning was if it sodomized them if all you guys are going to do is complain about how untenable attending a game is in a thousand-mile suburb.

Agreed.

Tampa Bay is a lousy baseball city. They've proven it again and again.

So your stadium sucks. So what? The team is outstanding.

So there's no public transportation. I'd rather that there were, but until then: so what? There's no public transportation option to the LA stadiums, but they don't have any problem getting people into the park. Even now, with the Dodgers 11 games out, their season already over, nasty divorce proceedings dividing ownership and making future payroll murky, they're still averaging 44,000 fans a night. They just got 40,000 to watch the Dodgers play the Mets, for crying out loud.

LA fans get a lot of grief for showing up in the third inning, but they do show up, if late. That's what happens when you have stadium access problems in a good baseball market. Tampa Bay is what happens when you have stadium access problems in a bad one.

[infrared41]

How many of you would be willing to drive an hour to and from the stadium on a work/school night with your family?

I started to post something along these lines earlier, but got distracted and ended up doing the cliched "Tropicana Dome sucks!" post.

I don't know if people have driven to a Rays game, but it's not easy. Due to how spread out the Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater Metro area is, Tropicana Field is a huge hassle to get to, especially on a weekday. There's no good public transportation that serves the stadium, so your only option to see a home game is to brave Tampa Bay area rush hour traffic. It's not fun, and I don't blame more people for not doing it.

I've used the Atlanta comparison to describe the Rays' situation.

It's akin to leaving your downtown Atlanta workplace at 5pm, picking up your wife and kids in Roswell, then driving to Duluth to watch the game, staying for 3 hours, then braving the post-game traffic to hopefully get home around 11pm.

Families aren't going to do this 20-81 times a year, and even single folks would be hard-pressed to make that haul for half the games.

Not to pile on one of my favorite places in the country but... Hedley and D_G hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as an "easy" trip to Tropicana Field. To make matters worse, if you do decide to take on the task of attending a Rays game, once you arrive you're greeted with a hulking ugly stadium in a non-descript part of town. There is no "wow I'm at the ballpark" moment when you see the Trop. It's more like seeing a really big and weird looking building amongst other ugly buildings and parking lots. Then there's the matter of going inside to watch baseball being played in a giant Sam's Club.

You need to be as hardcore as it gets as a baseball fan to actually enjoy Tropicana Field. I'd be curious to see the Rays local TV ratings. That would tell the tale of how popular they actually are. The Marlins have lousy attendance but are among the top teams in local TV ratings. Whether or not those ratings will translate into attendance at the new Marlins park remains to be seen. (It's not like getting around in Miami is a walk in the park) If Tampa and the Rays are smart, they'll be keeping an eye on how it works out for the Marlins.

[The_Admiral]

We looked at ratings before and both the Rays and Marlins have mediocre television ratings. "Nobody goes to a Marlins game but the world watches them on TV" was a big fallacy spread by, appropriately, a guy here named "marlinfan." Middle of the pack, at best.

The Marlins local TV ratings are among the highest in baseball.

I've seen this trope repeated here a bunch of times, usually by marlinfan, and I've never found the numbers to back it up.

http://www.sportsbus...m/article/63798

If Marlins games are split 50/50ish between Sun Sports and Fox Sports Florida, then they would seem to have averaged 51,000 households for 2009. Now, relative to the Florida Panthers who get like 3,000 households tuning in, or Marlins game attendance itself which has dipped below 400 people, then hot damn! 51,000 sets is some monumental attention to Miami sports. Relative to the rest of the league, however, it's not "among the highest in baseball." I see 346,000 for the Yanks, 228,000 for the Red Sox, 145,000 for the Cubs over CSN (they're not counting WGN games), 122,000 for the Dodgers. In metros that are about the same size as Miami, +/- a million or so people, you have 210,000 households for the Phillies, 83,000 for the Braves, 133,000 for the Tigers, and 62,000 for the Dbags. The smallest market in baseball is Milwaukee and the Brewers are listed at 56,000, which puts them just ahead of mighty Miami. They're ahead of a few moribund franchises like the Nats and O's, but that's to be expected. So basically the Marlins have a semi-respectable niche. That's all. They're not a ratings powerhouse.

[Gothamite]

You need to be as hardcore as it gets as a baseball fan to actually enjoy Tropicana Field. I'd be curious to see the Rays local TV ratings. That would tell the tale of how popular they actually are.

Well, there you have it. The answer is "not very." Middle-of-the-pack television ratings coupled with embarrassing attendance.

[crashcarson15]

You need to be as hardcore as it gets as a baseball fan to actually enjoy Tropicana Field. I'd be curious to see the Rays local TV ratings. That would tell the tale of how popular they actually are.

Well, there you have it. The answer is "not very." Middle-of-the-pack television ratings coupled with embarrassing attendance.

Well, 65,000 and 57,000 are decently respectable. I mean, there's not the fanbase like the Red Sox, Yankees, or Cubs, and they're a little behind the Angels based on the 65,000 number.

Also, how many people are gonna sit inside on a Florida night to watch a baseball game either way? You've gotta remember, most people aren't "diehard sports fans" like we are. A lot of people go to the ballpark for the atmosphere of it, and if there's no Atmosphere at the Trop, they'll choose the beach (or hell a Threshers game) for the better environment.

[The_Admiral]

And I have to apologize for the fact that Cubs fans do go to games.

EDIT: Well until now

[raysox]

Just got back, it was a blast, the crowd was crazy.

One thing I noted, a family of 5, parents and 3 kids, left in the third inning because it was getting late. If that adds any, if not we can be like wait, what? because they were 60 dollar tickets...

[Sodboy13]

Just got back, it was a blast, the crowd was crazy.

One thing I noted, a family of 5, parents and 3 kids, left in the third inning because it was getting late. If that adds any, if not we can be like wait, what? because they were 60 dollar tickets...

Those kids are gonna grow up to molest the neighbors' pets. That's horrible home training all around.

[oddball]

You need to be as hardcore as it gets as a baseball fan to actually enjoy Tropicana Field. I'd be curious to see the Rays local TV ratings. That would tell the tale of how popular they actually are.

Well, there you have it. The answer is "not very." Middle-of-the-pack television ratings coupled with embarrassing attendance.

Well, 65,000 and 57,000 are decently respectable. I mean, there's not the fanbase like the Red Sox, Yankees, or Cubs, and they're a little behind the Angels based on the 65,000 number.

Also, how many people are gonna sit inside on a Florida night to watch a baseball game either way? You've gotta remember, most people aren't "diehard sports fans" like we are. A lot of people go to the ballpark for the atmosphere of it, and if there's no Atmosphere at the Trop, they'll choose the beach (or hell a Threshers game) for the better environment.

OH HELL NO!!! Don't pull out that crap about other things to do in Florida! People in Southern California get ripped about not being football fans, because there are other things to do in Southern California. If people get ripped in SoCal for doing other things than going to a football game and are called crappy fans, then those in the Tampa who don't go for whatever excuse are just plain crappy fans. Why can Cardinal fans travel from other states to see their team, yet Tampa fans can't make the drive across the Bay? What kind of crappy excuse is that. Gothamite hit it squarely on the head. You want to know a stadium where there's no good way to get to it? Dodger Stadium. Yet, somehow Dodger fans for YEARS have come from as far down as just north of San Diego on a weeknight to see their Dodgers play and the Dodgers constantly draw 2,000,000. Either you go, or you don't go; but don't give me excuses about it's hard to get there. Have some friggin' dedication people. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Tampa fans need to collectively stand up and tell the world, "We suck as baseball fans." We'll have more respect for you then. It won't change the fact that you suck as baseball fans, but at least it'll be refreshing to see you take responsibility for your lack of actions in support of your team.

[raysox]

Just got back, it was a blast, the crowd was crazy.

One thing I noted, a family of 5, parents and 3 kids, left in the third inning because it was getting late. If that adds any, if not we can be like wait, what? because they were 60 dollar tickets...

Those kids are gonna grow up to molest the neighbors' pets. That's horrible home training all around.

Eh, I think the oldest was in Kindergarden, youngest was under a year old. The 6 year old was pissed. He like didn't want to finish his dip-n-dots

[The_Admiral]

What time did the game start?

EDIT: Oh.

I thought maybe they were one of those evangelical families that makes their kids go to bed at 8 or something.

[infrared41]

We looked at ratings before and both the Rays and Marlins have mediocre television ratings. "Nobody goes to a Marlins game but the world watches them on TV" was a big fallacy spread by, appropriately, a guy here named "marlinfan." Middle of the pack, at best.

Actually, my source for the Marlins local TV ratings was Sports Illustrated. According to the article I read, the Marlins have very good TV ratings. The article was about Hanley Ramirez if you're interested in trying to find it.

[infrared41]

Why can Cardinal fans travel from other states to see their team, yet Tampa fans can't make the drive across the Bay?

Because it's easier to travel from other states than it is to get across Tampa Bay?

[BBTV]

Ahrrr!!! I'm better and more manly than you because I drive further, spend more and am more dedicated to the sports team that plays in a city near me!!! When they lose, I feel worse than you - no matter how bad you feel, I'm worse - take that!!!

[The_Admiral]

Was this it?

STP: Baseball in Boston borders on the lines of obsession. Why does the Florida organization struggle to generate a larger following?

Juan C. Rodriguez: That's been the million dollar question here for a long time. The Marlins get great TV ratings, but the problem is getting fans to the stadium. Weather is a huge problem. It's always raining somewhere in South Florida the hour or two before the game, so that keeps fans away. With a new retractable roof stadium set to open in 2012, weather won't be an issue any longer.

See, everyone talks about these vaunted Marlins telecasts as if their broadcast dominance is common knowledge, but the only thing we've found that even resembles hard data indicates a market share that, relative to the league and similarly sized television markets, is nothing to brag about. More people are watching at home than in person, but it's not as if there's this NESN-esque ubiquity that would prove the Marlins' relevance if only America knew.