2013 NFL Off-Season Thread

[pmoehrin]

If you say so.

People can debate anything here.

Seems that way.

I'll just say the NFL cares that much about this day, I want to see them move games when the start of Rosh Hashanah falls on a Sunday. They didn't last year when it was the case. In fact they had a Sunday night game in San Francisco which has one of the largest Jewish populations in the country.

Interesting how there's no issue with playing on Rosh Hashanah when the NFL willingly schedules games on that date.

For the record I really don't care if the NFL plays on Rosh Hashanah or not.

My issues were with BlueSky's "isn't it funny how they don't cancel games for Thanksgiving and Christmas but they do for some Jewish holiday hmmmmmmm?" as if to imply that there's a worldwide Zionist conspiracy that's set its sights on his beloved NFL. Never mind the fact that a worldwide Jewish conspiracy only exists in the minds of idiots and bigots. Even if it one did exist I'd like to think a worldwide conspiracy, Jewish or otherwise, would have more pressing matters then causing minor scheduling inconveniences for the NFL.

That's on top of his "if you say so" comment. Excuse me sparky, but I've taken part in this holiday every year since I was born. I think I can speak with authority as to what it's all about.

Fair enough.

I'm not trying to budge into any personal debate, just trying to keep it on topic.

[BlueSky]

My basic opinion of the NFL is that the game is inherently dangerous and there's nothing you can do to take that element of danger out without significantly changing the way the sport is played.

I'm perfectly happy with doing just that.

You and about six other people may be willing to watch flag football. Not so many others.

You watch a rugby match and tell me that it's "flag football".

No, it's rugby. It's not NFL football. Keep flailing away and missing my point, which (again) is that if the current trend continues, in my opinion (worth as much or as little as anyone else's) there will come a time when NFL football changes to the point that fans lose interest. It's not just the protectionism, it's astronomical salaries, international expansion, expanded playoffs, the Pro Bowl, everything that irritates people. Nothing more, nothing less. If it's not clear now, I can't help you.

If you say so.

People can debate anything here.

Seems that way.

I'll just say the NFL cares that much about this day, I want to see them move games when the start of Rosh Hashanah falls on a Sunday. They didn't last year when it was the case. In fact they had a Sunday night game in San Francisco which has one of the largest Jewish populations in the country.

Interesting how there's no issue with playing on Rosh Hashanah when the NFL willingly schedules games on that date.

For the record I really don't care if the NFL plays on Rosh Hashanah or not.

My issues were with BlueSky's "isn't it funny how they don't cancel games for Thanksgiving and Christmas but they do for some Jewish holiday hmmmmmmm?" as if to imply that there's a worldwide Zionist conspiracy that's set its sights on his beloved NFL. Never mind the fact that a worldwide Jewish conspiracy only exists in the minds of idiots and bigots. Even if it one did exist I'd like to think a worldwide conspiracy, Jewish or otherwise, would have more pressing matters then causing minor scheduling inconveniences for the NFL.

That's on top of his "if you say so" comment. Excuse me sparky, but I've taken part in this holiday every year since I was born. I think I can speak with authority as to what it's all about.

You read a LOT into what I wrote, which was nothing more than wondering why the NFL has no problem playing on one religious holiday (we can toss Thanksgiving to stay more apples to apples) and not another. I did not pretend or presume to know anything about the Jewish holiday in question and "if you say so" sounded more flip than I intended. Had I known you were Jewish (btw, how the hell would I?), I would have said something to the effect of "you know better than I."

But differences between the holidays aside, I'm still puzzled by the whole deal in Baltimore because I've never heard of the NFL declining to play on any day regardless of what it is. Also, if you asked most people, "What one day a year do most businesses close?", they would say Christmas. If something is going to be closed, it will be closed Christmas day. It's the acknowledged measuring stick for closing on holidays.

I think any reasonable person might question why, if the NFL has no problem playing on any other day of the year, they would suddenly take this stance. That doesn't suggest a conspiracy, it just seems odd.

Seriously, man, read what you wrote. Saying I implied a Zionist conspiracy? Kinda smacks of wild-eyed paranoia. Get a grip.

I won't apologize because I didn't say anything wrong. I will say sincerely that I meant no offense and simply wonder what's behind the NFL's decision.

[IceCap]

Solid points.

Like I said, I really don't care one way or the other. Either way I won't be watching football so whatever. I was just trying to expand upon the admiral's statement that Christmas and Rosh Hashanah were not comparable because they're two very different types of holidays. I'm not the NFL obviously, but if I had to justify the decision based purely on the holidays I'd say that the more sombre tone of Rosh Hashanah doesn't lend itself well to football, while the more celebratory nature of Christmas does. As pmoehrin said if they really cared about that though they would have rescheduled games last year when Rosh Hashanah fell on a Sunday. So I admit to being just as perplexed as to the NFL's reasoning here as you.

As for reading into what you said, well it's the internet. Inflection and tone are hard to decipher, and when combine that with a sensitive topic sometimes misunderstandings happen. Now I've been posting here for almost ten years now, and you've been here for most of that time, and religion in general has come up quite a lot. I thought most long time members knew I was Jewish. My apologies there.

Now I know you didn't apologize, but I will say I appreciate your clarification that no offence was meant.

[STL FANATIC]

About the idea that there's a line of changing the game that will lose fans... maybe so.

But there's also a line where seeing players and former players unable to live a normal life or die way too young becomes a huge turnoff to a lot of fans too. I think we're close to that right now.

We're not THAT close to seeing people turn off their TVs, but we are teetering on the brink of seeing youth and HS football participation decline. (I believe we have seen that, but it's not enough to draw any conclusions from right now.) And with that decline in participation will come a smaller talent pool, and lesser product, and less interest.

We are literally decades from something that big happening, but that doesn't mean we should pretend its not entirely plausible if they don't change their course.

[Gothamite]

That's an excellent point.

But with all the gnashing of teeth, I am spectacularly unconvinced that the NFL is going to legislate itself out of business. We've heard that for years, with every rule change. And what happens? The NFL is more popular every year.

There's this perception out there that people love the NFL for the hard hits. A perception that is harder and harder to justify every year. How much evidence do we need to the contrary before we finally give up that myth?

[The_Admiral]

Count me in as someone who finally got tired of how dehumanizing the game is. I don't claim to be in anything resembling a large contingent of fans, not just yet, but football got to a point where it was so big, so excessive, so unyielding, so depressing that it was making my soul hurt, so I just threw up my hands and said I didn't need to watch it anymore. Also, the Bears suck, lol

[Kramerica Industries]

Count me in as someone who finally got tired of how dehumanizing the game is. I don't claim to be in anything resembling a large contingent of fans, not just yet, but football got to a point where it was so big, so excessive, so unyielding, so depressing that it was making my soul hurt, so I just threw up my hands and said I didn't need to watch it anymore. Also, the Bears suck, lol

But you're a hockey fan, and, really, just how much safer is hockey than football, a sport that encourages buffoonery and fighting? I mean, these guys are on skates which puts them on an even faster track than football players. Guys like Tomas Holmstrom took thousands of cross checks to their backs in their careers, to the point where I'm not even sure how Homer can stand straight these days.

It's not exactly a safer sport.

[njmeadowlanders]

Solid points.

Like I said, I really don't care one way or the other. Either way I won't be watching football so whatever. I was just trying to expand upon the admiral's statement that Christmas and Rosh Hashanah were not comparable because they're two very different types of holidays. I'm not the NFL obviously, but if I had to justify the decision based purely on the holidays I'd say that the more sombre tone of Rosh Hashanah doesn't lend itself well to football, while the more celebratory nature of Christmas does. As pmoehrin said if they really cared about that though they would have rescheduled games last year when Rosh Hashanah fell on a Sunday. So I admit to being just as perplexed as to the NFL's reasoning here as you.

As for reading into what you said, well it's the internet. Inflection and tone are hard to decipher, and when combine that with a sensitive topic sometimes misunderstandings happen. Now I've been posting here for almost ten years now, and you've been here for most of that time, and religion in general has come up quite a lot. I thought most long time members knew I was Jewish. My apologies there.

Now I know you didn't apologize, but I will say I appreciate your clarification that no offence was meant.

Do you have any idea how many Jets home openers I've had to miss over the years because of Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur?

...and that's in NYC Metro. The most Jews this side of Israel.

I remember they once moved a game to 1 from 4 so that Jews could get home before sundown on Yom Kippur and people threw a fit over "pandering to the Jews" (and it turned into one of the extremely rare times the Jets and Giants played at the same time when not against one another).

The NFL (and any sport) doesn't give two damns about it. At all. As for Christmas, they'll hype up games on Christmas ad nauseum and over-promote "CHRISTMAS DAY NFL!!!11!!!11!!!".

[The_Admiral]

Hockey is dangerous, and I'd like for it to be less dangerous with the phasing out of buffoonery and fighting. Still, the hockey industry is not the relentless combine that the football industry is, chewing people up and spitting out their bone fragments.

[Gothamite]

So, you should be happy about recent developments?

[Kramerica Industries]

Solid points.

Like I said, I really don't care one way or the other. Either way I won't be watching football so whatever. I was just trying to expand upon the admiral's statement that Christmas and Rosh Hashanah were not comparable because they're two very different types of holidays. I'm not the NFL obviously, but if I had to justify the decision based purely on the holidays I'd say that the more sombre tone of Rosh Hashanah doesn't lend itself well to football, while the more celebratory nature of Christmas does. As pmoehrin said if they really cared about that though they would have rescheduled games last year when Rosh Hashanah fell on a Sunday. So I admit to being just as perplexed as to the NFL's reasoning here as you.

As for reading into what you said, well it's the internet. Inflection and tone are hard to decipher, and when combine that with a sensitive topic sometimes misunderstandings happen. Now I've been posting here for almost ten years now, and you've been here for most of that time, and religion in general has come up quite a lot. I thought most long time members knew I was Jewish. My apologies there.

Now I know you didn't apologize, but I will say I appreciate your clarification that no offence was meant.

Do you have any idea how many Jets home openers I've had to miss over the years because of Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur?

...and that's in NYC Metro. The most Jews this side of Israel.

I remember they once moved a game to 1 from 4 so that Jews could get home before sundown on Yom Kippur and people threw a fit over "pandering to the Jews" (and it turned into one of the extremely rare times the Jets and Giants played at the same time when not against one another).

The NFL (and any sport) doesn't give two damns about it. At all. As for Christmas, they'll hype up games on Christmas ad nauseum and over-promote "CHRISTMAS DAY NFL!!!11!!!11!!!".

That game was definitely played in 2009. I remember it well since there was a Sunday Night Baseball game scheduled that day between the Red Sox and Yankees in the Bronx, and that got pushed up to 1:00 as well, creating a circumstance that may never be seen again; the Yankees, Jets, and Giants (and, hell, probably the Mets as well) all playing at the same time. That was the first time since 1984 that the Giants and Jets played at the same time, and it only took three more weeks for that to happen again, when a Giants game in Philly was pushed up from 4:00 to 1:00 because the Yankees and Phillies were playing Game 4 of the World Series on the other side of the parking lot later that night.

/end worthless tangent

[BlueSky]

@ IceCap, glad we got this sorted. I regret falling into the trap of thinking everyone would know what I meant even though I only typed a snippet of my thought process. That goes back to the original "Christmas...hmmm" post and applies to the "if you say so" as well. Had I simply explained my curiosity as I ended up doing anyway this all could have been avoided.

I actually appreciated the explanation of the holiday (I'm a big fan of learning) and I see where you're coming from but IMO the big picture is what most people will see, i.e. "Hey NFL, you play on this major holiday, why not that one?"

It's commendable when people or organizations respect different cultures, religions, traditions, and so on, but at the same time I think they set themselves up for controversy when there's the appearance of respecting some and not others. I also think it would be a different situation if this wasn't a game that was only going to be scheduled because the Ravens are SB champs. In other words, if it was a question of rescheduling the entire league that wouldn't really be feasible.

I'm curious about something though...in trying to educate myself on the holiday I ran across this. I thought Rosh Hashanah was why they can't move the game to Wednesday night, but...

===

Although the Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle, so that the first day of each month originally began with the first sighting of a new moon, since the fourth century it has been arranged so that Rosh Hashanah never falls on a Wednesday, Friday, or Sunday

===

In any case, the world won't end just because Baltimore has to unfurl their banner in Week 2.

@ Gothamite, just because peoples' concern over the NFL changing has so far not affected its popularity doesn't mean it never will. As was pointed out, it's definitely kind of a Grand Canyon process where these things just chip away and wear away fans' goodwill and devotion. All I'm saying is that one day they'll reach a tipping point.

I'm as big an NFL fan as you'll ever find but like Buc and others have said, I'm really getting weary of a lot of it. The ridiculous pay scales (applies also to entertainment, CEOs, etc.), increasing referee control over games, all the drama and hype (prime-time draft, special "announcement shows" and so on), the possibility of expanded playoffs (just what we need, a 7-9 Wild Card @ an 8-8 Division Champ), the omnipresence of it (NFL Network, Sirius NFL Radio), players who say "Who?" when asked about HOF players from years past, exclusive deals that put the league before its customers (Madden, Sunday Ticket), ridiculously overpriced merchandise, the games being on 3 days a week, and yes, some of the rule changes.

Last but not least, there's the sheer arrogance of Roger Goodell and the league. As an example, he has the gall to stand up there and say they're considering 18 games because "the fans want it." He's twisting the truth (to be kind), taking peoples' anger over paying regular season prices for inferior preseason games and morphing that into "they want 18 regular season games." No, Mr. Goodell, they want a reduced price for preseason and/or just fewer preseason games but those options would never be considered because it would mean less revenue and we certainly can't have that.

You're right, the NFL has never been more popular. But when long-time hardcore fans start becoming restless and don't like the way things are trending, the NFL would be wise to come down out of its ivory tower and remember why there were canaries in the coal mines.

[njmeadowlanders]

I'm curious about something though...in trying to educate myself on the holiday I ran across this. I thought Rosh Hashanah was why they can't move the game to Wednesday night, but...

===

Although the Jewish calendar is based on the lunar cycle, so that the first day of each month originally began with the first sighting of a new moon, since the fourth century it has been arranged so that Rosh Hashanah never falls on a Wednesday, Friday, or Sunday

===

Maybe "falls on" but it's really 3 days affected...the sundown it begins, the next day, and the day after that. So if it "falls" on a Thursday it still runs through Friday/Sat or if it "falls" on a Saturday it runs through Sunday/Monday...

That game was definitely played in 2009. I remember it well since there was a Sunday Night Baseball game scheduled that day between the Red Sox and Yankees in the Bronx, and that got pushed up to 1:00 as well, creating a circumstance that may never be seen again; the Yankees, Jets, and Giants (and, hell, probably the Mets as well) all playing at the same time. That was the first time since 1984 that the Giants and Jets played at the same time, and it only took three more weeks for that to happen again, when a Giants game in Philly was pushed up from 4:00 to 1:00 because the Yankees and Phillies were playing Game 4 of the World Series on the other side of the parking lot later that night.

/end worthless tangent

Yes it was. AFL Throwback Jets (Titans) vs. Titans (Oilers). Jets won to improve to 3-0 w/ Sanchez as a rookie. He had a rushing TD too.

[BBTV]

It's like falling in love with a smoking hot woman with a perfect body and great personality, only to find out that she was thin because of cocaine, cigarettes, and possibly bulimia, had fake breasts, and was really a pathological liar. You get divorced, because in end, the person you thought you loved was all a lie, and never should have existed in the first place.

It's a shame the NFL baited people in with violence and injuries, but it should never have been like that anyway, so what they're taking away should never have been there.

Will they lose fans? I'm thinking no. It's very hard to watch right now with all these rule changes, subjective calls, confused players, etc. but eventually (at least I hope) they'll figure out what works and what doesn't, and the games will flow more smoothly, players will know what is right and wrong (they'll be thought this from day one as opposed to adapting in their 30s), and the game could end up actually being more "pure", as originally intended.

Or they could screw the whole thing up. My guess is that in the long run, they won't. Unfortunately we won't know for a decade.

[Lee Noire]

Saw a report on NFL Network that Dumervil is going to Baltimore. This whole thing has been weird but good for the Ravens.

[Cujo]

Saw a report on NFL Network that Dumervil is going to Baltimore. This whole thing has been weird but good for the Ravens.

Baltimore had money to spend? :blink:

[dbadefense1990]

Saw a report on NFL Network that Dumervil is going to Baltimore. This whole thing has been weird but good for the Ravens.

Baltimore had money to spend? :blink:

Thanks to Flacco, they had to take out a payday loan to cover expenses for the next six months.

In fact, I heard a rumor that the stadium will be renamed to "Check Into Cash Stadium."

[The_Admiral]

It was going to be Jim Palmer For The Money Store Stadium before all this unpleasantness with the O's.

[illwauk]

About the idea that there's a line of changing the game that will lose fans... maybe so.

But there's also a line where seeing players and former players unable to live a normal life or die way too young becomes a huge turnoff to a lot of fans too. I think we're close to that right now.

We're not THAT close to seeing people turn off their TVs, but we are teetering on the brink of seeing youth and HS football participation decline. (I believe we have seen that, but it's not enough to draw any conclusions from right now.) And with that decline in participation will come a smaller talent pool, and lesser product, and less interest.

We are literally decades from something that big happening, but that doesn't mean we should pretend its not entirely plausible if they don't change their course.

That already started... the public schools in a lot of major cities don't even play football anymore.

[GFB]

I have mixed feelings about the "safetying" of the game. On one hand, I'm glad that they are trying to look out for the players' long term health; but on the other hand, I feel like the NFL is a few steps away from being basketball on grass.

What I would like to see (which will never happen) is the elimination of the illegal contact penalty by CBs on WRs. You can keep the defensive holding penalties and pass interferences (major offenses), but allowing wide receivers to run pass routes unimpeded until the ball arrives creates a few problems:

- It forces defenders to try to time their hits as soon as the ball arrives (when WRs are at their most vulnerable).

- It allows receivers to get to higher speeds and greater separation from defenders, which results in greater impact when contact does occur.

- It will help slow down some of these crazy, pass happy offenses that are resulting in these 42-38 games. (I like some defense with my sports)

Personally (as someone who has never played football), I don't see a difference between knocking the ball down from a receivers hands and knocking away a receivers hands (not arms) to prevent them from catching a pass.