2013 Baseball Hall of Fame

[The_Admiral]

I draw the line at "is the outcome possibly pre-determined?"

Or we can sit here and say that Gaylord Perry throwing a spitter is ethically equivalent to the 1919 White Sox, who knows what January 7th shall hold

[McCall]

Objectively speaking, what Rose did is probably worse than what McGwire and Sosa did. Both are bad, but gambling on the outcome of a game you control is a much bigger threat to competitive integrity than maybe being able to hit a ball harder.

The other thing with Rose is that he could not have handled the situation any worse then how he handled it.

Had he shown even the slightest bit of modesty and humility, no question he would be in the Hall right now and probably would have even be back in the majors in some role. Instead he was tried to make Bart Giamatti and anyone else involved in the case out to be idiots. I don't care what kind of evidence you have on me, I didn't do it. That was his stance for over a decade. How could baseball not come down hard on him? He left them with no other choice.

As far as Pete Rose getting in the Hall of Fame at this point I really don't care. Regardless of what ultimately happens its not going to change my opinion of him one way or the other. I think once you stop looking at the Hall of Fame as the be all end all measure of greatness, whether or not Rose gets in doesn't matter as much and that's where my mindset has gone towards in recent years.

So no modesty and full denial when he did is enough to keep the all-time hits leader out but not the all-time home run leader (Bonds)?

[pcgd]

Its amazing in a sport where stealing signs is acceptable practice even today (as long as you don't use technology!) and where most of the all time greats basically did speed for 50 years, they get on such a moral high ground about PEDs and gambling.

I say put all of those all time greats in but on their plaque is states the facts. For McGwire it says he admitted it, for Bonds it says he was accused, For sosa say he used a corked bat, Rose bet on baseball, Shoeless Joe took the money, etc. If they want in they have to list ALL Facts.

Then go back and put on Gaylord Perry's plaque that he threw spitballs after their were illegal. And then on Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and the rest put they took "greenies" daily.

[McCall]

For me, this shows there's still too much to discuss. That's why I say someone like Biggio and even Bagwell, as there's never been any accusations, should get in now, and we can continue the discussion on the others. And by we I mean baseball fans in general. This ballot is too controversial to decide on some of these guys their first go-round. Too much discussion still to take place.

[Kramerica Industries]

Umm, stealing signs IS acceptable as long as it's done by those on the field or in the dugout, and not receiving technological aid (which you, oddly, snark about there). If a team is careless enough with their signs that this allows the opponent to get an inside track on them, then that's their own fault.

The stories of the 1951 New York Giants using telescopes to steal signs is one thing. That's out and out illegal and against the ethics of baseball, as it should be. But players stealing signs from other players, or managers/coaches doing so from other managers/coaches? In what world is that some kind of offense in baseball?

[McCall]

Umm, stealing signs IS acceptable as long as it's done by those on the field or in the dugout, and not receiving technological aid (which you, oddly, snark about there). If a team is careless enough with their signs that this allows the opponent to get an inside track on them, then that's their own fault.

The stories of the 1951 New York Giants using telescopes to steal signs is one thing. That's out and out illegal and against the ethics of baseball, as it should be. But players stealing signs from other players, or managers/coaches doing so from other managers/coaches? In what world is that some kind of offense in baseball?

Agreed. Any player or coach using their own eyes to see a sign and communicate it to the rest of their of their team without any outside help (meaning electronics, third party stationed elsewhere in the ballpark) is fair game.

[The_Admiral]

Stealing signs doesn't invite the pretense of a predetermined outcome.

[Mac the Knife]

Objectively speaking, what Rose did is probably worse than what McGwire and Sosa did. Both are bad, but gambling on the outcome of a game you control is a much bigger threat to competitive integrity than maybe being able to hit a ball harder.

The other thing with Rose is that he could not have handled the situation any worse then how he handled it.

Had he shown even the slightest bit of modesty and humility, no question he would be in the Hall right now and probably would have even be back in the majors in some role. Instead he was tried to make Bart Giamatti and anyone else involved in the case out to be idiots. I don't care what kind of evidence you have on me, I didn't do it. That was his stance for over a decade. How could baseball not come down hard on him? He left them with no other choice.

As far as Pete Rose getting in the Hall of Fame at this point I really don't care. Regardless of what ultimately happens its not going to change my opinion of him one way or the other. I think once you stop looking at the Hall of Fame as the be all end all measure of greatness, whether or not Rose gets in doesn't matter as much and that's where my mindset has gone towards in recent years.

So no modesty and full denial when he did is enough to keep the all-time hits leader out but not the all-time home run leader (Bonds)?

Your POTD, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Neither Rose nor Bonds deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Ever. Nor does anyone for whom the preponderance of evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, gives reasonable people the impression that they did anything illegal (e.g., gamble, take PED's) in connection with their participation in baseball contests. People who cheated on the field (e.g., Gaylord Perry) in some form or fashion probably don't belong there, either, but to me that's a far more grey area.

[infrared41]

I think I may have a unique perspective on the "steroids, greenies, coke, what's the difference" point of view. Having taken all the aforementioned drugs, I can tell you that the only one that enhanced my abilities in any way was steroids. Just wanted to toss that in.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Piazza is so clearly a Hall of Fame player. Come on, everyone.

[McCall]

My personal ballot:

Biggio

Bagwell

Piazza

Lee Smith

Jack Morris

Fred McGriff

[rams80]

Umm, stealing signs IS acceptable as long as it's done by those on the field or in the dugout, and not receiving technological aid (which you, oddly, snark about there). If a team is careless enough with their signs that this allows the opponent to get an inside track on them, then that's their own fault.

The stories of the 1951 New York Giants using telescopes to steal signs is one thing. That's out and out illegal and against the ethics of baseball, as it should be. But players stealing signs from other players, or managers/coaches doing so from other managers/coaches? In what world is that some kind of offense in baseball?

What about watching the game on TiVo?

[Gary]

My personal ballot:

Biggio

Bagwell

Piazza

Lee Smith

Jack Morris

Fred McGriff

I like your list, however I would add Alan Trammell if I had it my way

[The_Admiral]

Trammell and Whitaker should both be in. Among Trammell's career comparable players are Barry Larkin, Ryne Sandberg, and Pee Wee Reese. Whitaker's include Sandberg, Larkin, and Roberto Alomar. Together they anchored a great infield for almost twenty years. Is that not enough?

[RyanB06]

My prediction: nobody gets inducted this year. Too much "guilt-by-association" out there in the current crop of candidates.

[McCall]

My prediction: nobody gets inducted this year. Too much "guilt-by-association" out there in the current crop of candidates.

I don't think any of that should apply to Biggio at the very least. I say he's the only one.

On Trammell, I don't oppose his entry. Kinda forgot about him, to be honest. But yeah, he's a logical choice in my eyes.

[Gary]

http://espn.go.com/m...new-member-2013

No one is elected this year.

Trammell only got 33.6 pct of the vote. I think he'll need the Veterans Committee to get in now.

[NEW.ERA]

Biggio came the closest. What a sad process, never liked the Baseball way of the Hall of Fame.

[Kramerica Industries]

High Holiness strikes again.

[McCall]

What crap. Biggio got screwed.