Charlotte Hornets?

[jakepled]

[rams80]

It's not counter-factual in the slightest. It's history that happened in Charlotte. It's funny, I can't see how anyone can honestly feel that New Orleans has any claim whatsoever to what Charlotte's basketball team did.

But it was done by a completely different organization. It's as if you had a Wendy's claiming sales records from a defunct McDonalds that used to operate in the same place. Organizational continuity matters.

But it is all part of the same organization (NBA). So in your analogy it would be like a new Wendy's being built on the old site of a once famous Wendy's location and then honoring the records and history that Wendy's made. I don't think anyone would consider that odd.

The NBA places more emphasis on brand distinction than that.

[tubby34]

Historical revisionism. This is why I opposed this whole mess in the first place.

Pretending the Bobcats are now the Hornets of old is disingenuous and absurd.

Exactly. I was the only one who oppose the name change in the first place. The only reason that happened was because the franchise was terrible as the Bobcats. Had they been winning on a consistent basis, this would've never happened. It just seems so disrespectful of the original franchise (now in New Orleans). The old Charlotte Hornets history should stay with the Pelicans. I feel the same way about when the new Cleveland Browns franchise has the old Cleveland Browns history. The latter should have stayed with the Baltimore Ravens (old Browns franchise). This historical revisionism is why I also opposed the name change as well.

I look at it this way- Alonzo morning and glen rice never played in New Orleans. They played in Charlotte.

New Orleans and the Pelicans (even the NOH)

never deserved to celebrate those careers and the careers of their teammates. New Orleans couldnt appreciate them and what they did for charlotte . Like when the heat retired Jordan's 23, or when the entire league retired Gretzkys 99- it would be a tribute to a players career and just a show- no real emotional attachment and just a celebration for the sake of celebration. Bandwagon if you will.

Now- the lineage is where it's supposed to be geographically. Mourning would be a former player coming back and celebrating his career with his actual fans who saw him play, not a bunch of bandwagon fans celebrating a great players career through chosen highlights for the sake of celebration.

And before anyone asks about Durant and his career in Seattle- I think he'd never return for a celebration because he'd the symbol for such a horrible event in the teams history, Buckner before the Red Sox WS win if you will.

And I think what I said is a rational and legitimate way of saying the city celebrates it's history, not the franchise lineage. The revised lineage only spells it out easier for the record books.

[tubby34]

The history isn't that murky. It's quite simple, actually. The New Orleans history is 2003-present. The Charlotte history is 1988-present and includes all teams that played in Charlotte.

The city of Charlotte led the entire NBA in attendance in '88, '90, '91, '92, '93, '94, '95, '96, as well as finishing 2nd in '88, '97. The Hornets finished 20-62 their inaugural season, but still sold out every single game and led the NBA in attendance. A banner was made that read "Charlotte Hornets 1988-89 NBA Attendance Champion 950,064". They set it up during the summer and allowed season ticket holders to sign it. Then on opening night they honored the fans of Charlotte for their support and raised the banner to the rafters. Why should that banner be hanging in the New Orleans rafters instead of the Charlotte rafters?

The purple/teal Hornets that featured Muggsy, LJ, & Zo never played in New Orleans. The brand that is so popular was exclusive to Charlotte. When they moved to New Orleans the colors were changed to blue & yellow, & they later completely revamped the old logo. Why should purple/teal snapbacks & Larry Johnson jerseys be sold in the New Orleans team store instead of the Charlotte team store?

Bobby Phills died while playing in Charlotte. The next season the team held a special ceremony with his family and hung his jersey in the rafters, permanently retiring his jersey number. He died while playing and living in Charlotte, where his family resides to this day. Why should his banner hang in the New Orleans rafters instead of the Charlotte rafters?

The name "Hornets" has ties to Charlotte dating back to the Revolutionary War in 1780, when a General called Charlotte "a hornets nest of rebellion." From 1892-1936 there was a minor league baseball team in Charlotte nicknamed the Hornets. Why should the Hornets brand be locked away by a franchise that didn't want it in New Orleans instead of returning to a city that truly loves it and has a deep history of meaning with it?

Even the mascot is named after a hurricane that tore thru Charlotte in 1989, during the start of the team's 2nd season. Hugo the Hornet was created and named after history involving Charlotte. Why should that mascot be locked away and unused by New Orleans instead of returning home to Charlotte?

The history being taken from the New Orleans franchise and given to the new Charlotte franchise seems really stupid on the surface. However, when you look at the big picture and everything it means the change makes absolutely perfect sense. It has nothing to do with the actual statistical numbers and records. It is everything else. In order to get all that other stuff that is so deeply tied to Charlotte the stats have to be included in the transfer.

New Orleans fans can keep crying and saying Charlotte stole their name. Sorry folks, it was never your name to begin with.

This post should be quoted on every page.

[jakepled]

Yes!!!

Hornets have the #9 & #24 pick.

[tubby34]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

Except Cincinnati is the Queen City of Ohio and isn't the largest city in Ohio.

Now that's the kind of retcon that would make Hawkman's writers proud.

Again, your pissant city (and county, to reinforce the irony) is named after CHARLOTTE OF MECKLENBURG-STRELITZ, QUEEN OF GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, ELECTRESS OF HANOVER (etc.) That's were the Queen City moniker came from.

That's where the moniker came from.

There really should be a new rule, across all sports, that once a team moves, the identity is dead. The current team has to change its name upon relocation, and the former city cannot reclaim that name should a franchise return there. A bit extreme, yes, but the mess that the Browns deal created has to stop somewhere.

I like being a Rams fan, so no, lets not do that.

That's if the Rams move, though.

And do you like being a Rams fan, or a St. Louis football team fan? Is your loyalty attached to the identity, or the city? Those are questions that situations like these bring up.

I like being a Rams fan. I will follow them anywhere.

And ST.Louis is named for a Frenchman, and New York Named after the British, and Florida was named by the Spanish.

What's your point? that your intolerant and a pissant yourself?

And the rams suck.

Oh, and I don't live and never have been to Charlotte.

Never will either.

[tubby34]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

I think you missed the point entirely.

Besides, Charlotte's called "Queen City" because it's named after Queen Charlotte, wife of King George III. The guy the American revolutionaries rebelled against. So your "the name Hornets has Revolutionary War roots!" argument kind of falls flat.

Some people are just dense- the Queen City is nice and all, but the name hornets comes from a quote- not a city reaching for a mascot and settling on a queen bee.

[Nyk33]

The only problem I have with the whole Charlotte Hornets thing is that the New Orleans Hornets had my favorite look in basketball in the teal and yellow (the Mardi Gras jerseys were heinous though). I also despise the Pelicans identity for being lame in every singe aspect.

Otherwise I really couldn't care. Congrats to Charlotte for getting the identity you always wanted now I hope that city can be the attendance powerhouse it was before the relocation.

[WSU151]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

This is awesome. The largest city in a state is the Queen City? Where did you come up with that?

Followed up with the Derp. Classic.

[WSU151]

And ST.Louis is named for a Frenchman, and New York Named after the British, and Florida was named by the Spanish.

What's your point? that your intolerant and a pissant yourself?

And the rams suck.

Oh, and I don't live and never have been to Charlotte.

Never will either.

Saying you'll never go to a city is kind of lame.

Charlotte's actually a really nice city, and one of the fastest growing in terms of population. Lake Norman is where it's at.

[BBTV]

History isn't a commodity that can be bought, sold, or traded. Could Qatar try to make a name for themselves by buying the US's history for a few trillion dollars, and then celebrate July 4 and claim a military victory over the British?

[jakepled]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

This is awesome. The largest city in a state is the Queen City? Where did you come up with that?

Followed up with the Derp. Classic.

"Queen City is a term which is often used to describe a city which is the largest city in a country, state, province, or territory, but which is not the capital."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_City

[WSU151]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

This is awesome. The largest city in a state is the Queen City? Where did you come up with that?

Followed up with the Derp. Classic.

"Queen City is a term which is often used to describe a city which is the largest city in a country, state, province, or territory, but which is not the capital."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_City

Because Los Angeles, Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, Detroit, Minneapolis, Houston, Jacksonville, Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee, Memphis, and Philadelphia are all commonly referred to as the Queen City...

[IceCap]

"Queen City is a term which is often used to describe a city which is the largest city in a country, state, province, or territory, but which is not the capital."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_City

It's also because the city is named after George III's wife, Queen Charlotte. Unlike the Mecklenburg declaration that's a confirmed historical fact.

[rams80]

The NBA is simply doing what they should've done in '02.

They're simply saying when New Orleans relocated they became an entirely new franchise. The old team stays behind.

This is really making people upset.

Good.

Do you know why it's getting people upset? It's because this whole thing is an exercise in massive delusional group think. It's an entire fanbase wilfully ignoring reality. It's bad enough that the actual history of the game is being tampered with. It's made worse by a large group of people collectively closing their eyes and humming really loud, hoping if they do it hard enough history will somehow contort itself into their desired shape.

I don't care about the team reusing the Hornets name, jake. I care about the integrity of the past. Which as been violated so an entire fanbase can play make-believe.

So then the Clippers, who used to be the Celtics until 1978, have 13 NBA titles in their illustrious history, right?

Nah. The franchises and organizations stayed intact even if the personnel changed. Nice try moving the goalposts though.

Charlotte is the largest city in NC....

The largest city in a state is called the Queen City....

Derp

This is awesome. The largest city in a state is the Queen City? Where did you come up with that?

Followed up with the Derp. Classic.

"Queen City is a term which is often used to describe a city which is the largest city in a country, state, province, or territory, but which is not the capital."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_City

Well if you want to be mentioned in the same breath as such metropolises as Hazard, Kentucky, Del Rio, Texas, Marquette, Michigan, Gadsden, Alabama, and Sedalia, Missouri, I guess that's your prerogative.

[tubby34]

And ST.Louis is named for a Frenchman, and New York Named after the British, and Florida was named by the Spanish.

What's your point? that your intolerant and a pissant yourself?

And the rams suck.

Oh, and I don't live and never have been to Charlotte.

Never will either.

Saying you'll never go to a city is kind of lame.

Charlotte's actually a really nice city, and one of the fastest growing in terms of population. Lake Norman is where it's at.

More to make the point that I have no emotional attachment to a city - to show how unbiased and unattached I am.

I probably never will, because I'll never have a chance to and there are better places to go to than Charlotte for vacation.

[IceCap]

More to make the point that I have no emotional attachment to a city - to show how unbiased and unattached I am.

Yes, but plenty of people with no attachment to the city have weighed in on the opposite side of things. As much as you want to play the "unbiased observer" card, well so can I.

[tubby34]

More to make the point that I have no emotional attachment to a city - to show how unbiased and unattached I am.

Yes, but plenty of people with no attachment to the city have weighed in on the opposite side of things. As much as you want to play the "unbiased observer" card, well so can I.

I know your Canadian now, but most of the people defending the name have blatantly said "we" or "our" when referencing Charlotte.

I felt it was necessary for me to make the distinction clearly.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

Would it not be odd for the Pelican's to host a throwback/legends night for ex-players that never played a minute of basketball in their city?

No, it would not be odd. Just as it wasn't odd for the Dodgers to host a Roy Campanella Night at the Colliseum in 1959, in a city where Campanella never played.

The important thing is that he played for the franchise. And, before any wiseguy claims that it's down to the nickname, let me state that the nickname means nothing. Sometimes a relocated team changes its nickname; sometimes it doesn't. Likewise, sometimes a team changes its nickname without moving (Washington Bullets, Houston Colt .45s). Adopting a new nickname does not equate to creating a new franchise.

Also, bringing up the owners is just erecting a straw man. Defenders of franchise continuity don't care about who the owners are; the identity of a team's owner means nothing. Teams are sold all the time; this doesn't create new franchises. A franchise remains one entity regardless of changes of name, location, or ownership.

There is one right way to handle the records of a relocated team: the way the NBA's Pistons, Lakers, Royals/Kings, and Warriors did it; the way the NFL's Cardinals, Redskins, Rams, and Colts did it; the way the NHL's Flames and Scouts/Rockies/Devils did it; the way Major League Baseball's Braves, A's, Browns/Orioles, Dodgers, Giants, and Senators/Twins did it. (Side note: look up the all-time pitching leaders for the Twins' franchise; the leader in most categories is Walter Johnson.) In other words, the right way to handle a relocated team's records is the way it was done in every single instance up until the f-ing Browns set their toxic precedent.

I hate to be the guy who sees the decline of civilisation everywhere he looks; but in this case that attitude is unavoidable. That this offence against history is being endorsed not by people who don't know any better, but by people who supposedly care about the sport, is not only sad but also a little scary; it's scary because it serves as a reminder that, to some people, reality just doesn't matter. This tells us why people believe all kinds of things that have no basis in reality, and why rational argument is so often futile.

What should be a fun moment to celebrate the return of a nice nickname and a cool look is instead a depressing commentary on our times, thanks to pandering douchebaggery on the part of the NBA and mindless acceptance on the part of the public.

[Gothamite]

The name "Hornets" has ties to Charlotte dating back to the Revolutionary War in 1780, when a General called Charlotte "a hornets nest of rebellion." From 1892-1936 there was a minor league baseball team in Charlotte nicknamed the Hornets. Why should the Hornets brand be locked away by a franchise that didn't want it in New Orleans instead of returning to a city that truly loves it and has a deep history of meaning with it?

Do you know who the city of Charlotte is named after? Queen Charlotte, beloved wife of George III, the king the American revolutionaries were revolting against. The city even calls itself "the Queen City" in reference to Queen Charlotte. Your "rah rah Revolutionary War reference rah rah" argument would hold more water if your city didn't keep the name of the wife of the guy the Revolution was waged against.

I get that, but virtually any city of any size is full of those sorts of contradictions. New York had some of the most fervent revolutionaries and also (IIRC) the largest percentage of loyalists. I can totally believe that the city fathers, for example, would keep the name to honor the Queen and yet the people themselves would be a "hornet's nest of rebellion."

Not that I'm in favor of the name or history transferring; I'm agnostic on that. But this particular argument is frequently used on this subject and I don't think I ever expressed why I find it to unpersuasive.