Braves Join Falcons in Abandoning Perfectly Good Facility

[DEAD!]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

Awww, come on...we need various points of view.

Other points of view on this board are dangerous. Can't point out the elephant in the room even when it's abundantly clear.

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

Because it's part of the culture. Once the culture changes, money will flow in.

For what it's worth, a rail line does go through Compton

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Compton,+CA,+United+States&hl=en&ll=33.891365,-118.201561&spn=0.124113,0.264187&sll=43.577326,-79.493436&sspn=0.630749,1.326599&oq=compton&t=m&hnear=Compton,+Los+Angeles+County,+California,+United+States&z=13&lci=transit_comp

[illwauk]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Actually, I lived in Atlanta for a year and made regular visits there for 2 years prior to that... and I was in the Ben Hill area of SW Atlanta, which isn't exactly Buckhead or Dunwoody. I could say more, but I think you know the cliche about what happens when you ASSume.

Oh, and FYI, I don't care for Downtown Milwaukee... I prefer Brady Street or the Third Ward.

[WSU151]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Actually, I lived in Atlanta for a year and made regular visits there for 2 years prior to that... and I was in the Ben Hill area of SW Atlanta, which isn't exactly Buckhead or Dunwoody. I could say more, but I think you know the cliche about what happens when you ASSume.

Oh, and FYI, I don't care for Downtown Milwaukee... I prefer Brady Street or the Third Ward.

Touche...I sincerely apologize for obvious reasons.

[WSU151]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

Awww, come on...we need various points of view.

Other points of view on this board are dangerous. Can't point out the elephant in the room even when it's abundantly clear.

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

Because it's part of the culture. Once the culture changes, money will flow in.

For what it's worth, a rail line does go through Compton

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Compton,+CA,+United+States&hl=en&ll=33.891365,-118.201561&spn=0.124113,0.264187&sll=43.577326,-79.493436&sspn=0.630749,1.326599&oq=compton&t=m&hnear=Compton,+Los+Angeles+County,+California,+United+States&z=13&lci=transit_comp

I humbly stand corrected again.

[DEAD!]

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

Because it's part of the culture. Once the culture changes, money will flow in.

For what it's worth, a rail line does go through Compton

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Compton,+CA,+United+States&hl=en&ll=33.891365,-118.201561&spn=0.124113,0.264187&sll=43.577326,-79.493436&sspn=0.630749,1.326599&oq=compton&t=m&hnear=Compton,+Los+Angeles+County,+California,+United+States&z=13&lci=transit_comp

I humbly stand corrected again.

It was not necessarily about "correcting" you, I'm just pointing that out

[dbadefense1990]

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

Because it's part of the culture. Once the culture changes, money will flow in.

For what it's worth, a rail line does go through Compton

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Compton,+CA,+United+States&hl=en&ll=33.891365,-118.201561&spn=0.124113,0.264187&sll=43.577326,-79.493436&sspn=0.630749,1.326599&oq=compton&t=m&hnear=Compton,+Los+Angeles+County,+California,+United+States&z=13&lci=transit_comp

Oh yes, the Blue Line. The one which starts in Long Beach, bisects Compton, Willowbrook and Huntington Park, goes along Washington Blvd and ends up in Downtown (coincidentally, the BL includes a stop at Staples Center [Pico-Chick Hearn]).

Speaking of all these "railway racism" chats we're all having, there's the new Expo Line which is supposed to connect Downtown to Santa Monica. Our MTA decided that two of the stops would be near high schools: one in an elite, yuppie neighborhood (Beverly Hills HS) and another in an impoverished, immigrant neighborhood (Dorsey HS in South-Central).

For Dorsey, MTA opted for an at-ground station. Those people became infuriated with MTA because there were no town-hall meetings to discuss logistical issues (apparently, the train slows down the commute time to people in South-Central, which wouldn't be a problem in trains equipped with either above-ground or subway tracks), and simply told their parents to "watch their kids" (as if those people are irresponsible for not taking care of the kids).

For Beverly Hills, there were vociferous exchanges between those parents and MTA, and even had pending legal actions taken. In the end, MTA opted for a subway track under the high school (to which taxpayers would pay even more for the increased costs). Even then, those people were still angry at the thought of any public railway being built, because of prejudiced tones taken by legislators. Those yuppies apparently fear the "impact" Blacks and Latinos would have at Beverly Hills. One such legislator even went as far as saying that people riding to Beverly Hills would have "terrorist aspects."

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/25/local/la-me-Beverly-Hills-Subway-20120525

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2012/04/transitwire_cheviot_hills_loses_expo_battle_bev_hills_shows_off_purple_line_opposition.php

[BlueSky]

You guys have me confused with the talk about Cobb County law enforcement. My job interacts with law enforcement in another county and I've lived in metro Atlanta for 12 years now. I had no perception whatsoever of anything different about Cobb County in terms of law enforcement. I just did an informal survey of 5 colleagues, 3 of whom are black. All who have lived in metro Atlanta for years. None of them had any misgivings about Cobb County or thought anything was different about law enforcement there.

We're all of course familiar with the embarassment that was Forsyth County in the past. You're talking as if Cobb is like that.

Atlanta is building a streetcar too. I suspect it'll turn into the same kind of boondoggle that every government project here seems to. But perhaps it will be the beginning of a sustainable, efficient system that can be expanded to help alleviate traffic. We'll see.

@WSU151...there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. That is indeed the elephant in the room in a lot of discussions on racism. There's obviously no comparing it to the horrific toll on people of color throughout history but it's not a one-way street either.

Edit: Talked with someone else at work who said in his opinion Cobb County cops are overly aggressive. He had witnessed at least one instance in which cops "jacked up" (his words) a subject who was trying to comply with their instructions. So maybe there's something to that.

[illwauk]

Atlanta is building a streetcar too. I suspect it'll turn into the same kind of boondoggle that every government project here seems to. But perhaps it will be the beginning of a sustainable, efficient system that can be expanded to help alleviate traffic. We'll see.

@WSU151...there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. That is indeed the elephant in the room in a lot of discussions on racism. There's obviously no comparing it to the horrific toll on people of color throughout history but it's not a one-way street either.

If the streetcar doesn't work in Atlanta, it'll be because of Atlanta's pseudo-suburban cultural sensibilities than anything having to do with big bad gub'mint. I'm a little disappointed that you had to use such a loaded word like "boondoggle," though, since you seem like a pretty reasonable person for the most part. Although that does kind of tie into my next point...

I don't disagree with the "it's not a one-way street" part, but I think you'd find that a lot more people would be willing to discuss it if those who wish to bring it up were more capable of doing so without using hyperbolic language or insultingly hysterical premises; or even presuming that people of color and their communities are obligated to be more like middle-class white people and their communities for the sake of making "everyone" more comfortable.

While I have to commend you, personally, for not conflating the black person who may have been rude to you in the checkout line or may have bullied you in middle school with generations upon generations of institutional discrimination, you represent a sadly glaring exception. Most people who want to discuss "reverse racism," frankly, lack the intellectual capability to understand race relations in the first place. If you think I'm stereotyping, go to the website of any big city newspaper or TV station, and read the comments under any story about inner city crime. It's kind of hard to discuss these things seriously when we can't even get past the point where so many prejudicially-charged myths have to be debunked.

[Cosmic]

Why is boondoggle a "loaded" word?

[BlueSky]

Atlanta is building a streetcar too. I suspect it'll turn into the same kind of boondoggle that every government project here seems to. But perhaps it will be the beginning of a sustainable, efficient system that can be expanded to help alleviate traffic. We'll see.

@WSU151...there's a lot of truth in what you wrote. That is indeed the elephant in the room in a lot of discussions on racism. There's obviously no comparing it to the horrific toll on people of color throughout history but it's not a one-way street either.

If the streetcar doesn't work in Atlanta, it'll be because of Atlanta's pseudo-suburban cultural sensibilities than anything having to do with big bad gub'mint. I'm a little disappointed that you had to use such a loaded word like "boondoggle," though, since you seem like a pretty reasonable person for the most part. Although that does kind of tie into my next point...

I don't disagree with the "it's not a one-way street" part, but I think you'd find that a lot more people would be willing to discuss it if those who wish to bring it up were more capable of doing so without using hyperbolic language or insultingly hysterical premises; or even presuming that people of color and their communities are obligated to be more like middle-class white people and their communities for the sake of making "everyone" more comfortable.

While I have to commend you, personally, for not conflating the black person who may have been rude to you in the checkout line or may have bullied you in middle school with generations upon generations of institutional discrimination, you represent a sadly glaring exception. Most people who want to discuss "reverse racism," frankly, lack the intellectual capability to understand race relations in the first place. If you think I'm stereotyping, go to the website of any big city newspaper or TV station, and read the comments under any story about inner city crime. It's kind of hard to discuss these things seriously when we can't even get past the point where so many prejudicially-charged myths have to be debunked.

I appreciate what you wrote. Reasonable pretty much sums up my goal and I try to see the different sides of issues as best I can.

You might not be as disappointed about "boondoggle" if you lived here. Not sure I can even remember all the fraud and mismanagement cases that have made the news since I moved here. For example this, this, and this. And of course the Atlanta Public Schools cheating scandal, the airport contract scandal, etc. and so on. A bit of a credibility gap has understandably opened up.

It's not government but there's also some smoke rising as a result of the Turner Field move. (<< FYI that link will autoplay a news video so if anyone's reading this at work you might want to turn down the volume.) Remains to be seen if there's any fire but millions are (again) gone without much to show for it.

As for the comment sections in news stories, it's often sickening. In a workplace conversation about The Hunger Games, a black colleague brought up the remarks section of a movie review. The people she spoke of must have been viewing their keyboards through the eyeslits of white hoods since they were questioning, on the basis of race, why the main character would take any kind of risk on behalf of the youngster she tries to help in the film. It was tough to see the hurt that put on my friend's face. Anyone with any compassion or empathy has to feel for people who are automatically and unfairly devalued for whatever superficial reason.

Even us middle-aged white guys who are often assumed to be racist, anti-poor lock-step Republicans.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Why is boondoggle a "loaded" word?

It's used to dismiss government projects you don't like, while providing tacit support for government projects you do. Transit projects are often "boondoggles" while highway projects are "investments."

[Cosmic]

Why is boondoggle a "loaded" word?

It's used to dismiss government projects you don't like, while providing tacit support for government projects you do. Transit projects are often "boondoggles" while highway projects are "investments."

I haven't run into that, but I get it. When your central city has lost more than half its population, you don't build too many of either!

Personally, I'd be equally likely to call either a boondoggle, if there were supporting evidence.

[BlueSky]

Why is boondoggle a "loaded" word?

It's used to dismiss government projects you don't like, while providing tacit support for government projects you do. Transit projects are often "boondoggles" while highway projects are "investments."

For the record I wasn't using it that way. I try to evaluate things on the basis of, "Will citizens (all of them) be better off with this or without it?" But in this instance I used the word based on the cynicism I've built up during 12 years of watching scandal after scandal unfold in the local news.

[The_Admiral]

Streetcars/light rail always strike me as closing the barn door after the horse is out, but best of luck anyway, I guess.

Why is boondoggle a "loaded" word?

It's used to dismiss government projects you don't like, while providing tacit support for government projects you do. Transit projects are often "boondoggles" while highway projects are "investments."

The Big Dig was the boondoggle of boondoggles. What a funny word to repeat.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

The Big Dig was more complicated than a boondoggle. It's an example of scope creep gone awry, but also a clear view of what it takes to reshape an entire city without taking a single home. It was an achievement, but an expensive one. Also, I think boondoggle has become the "thug" of public works descriptors (also, I may be oversensitive about it -- I'm pretty interested in public works projects).

Streetcars without exclusive right of way are dumb. However, they're also nicer than buses and more comfortable ride. For tourist routes or well defined commuter corridors, they make some kind of sense.

We're eventually getting one to go down Seattle's First Ave, which will travel down a tourist corridor near Pike Place Market. It's a pretty perfect place for one. The one we're building to connect our Chinatown to our biggest hipster neighborhood is a bit of a different story.

[Cosmic]

We had a highway extension that I'm comfortable calling a boondoggle. The highway portion of US 219 in NY was extended 4.2 miles in a very rural area because we might some day build another 25 miles of highway down to the PA line and be able to link it to other highway segments that other states are maybe going to build some day. The original price tag was $86M, which was bad enough, but it grew to $125M after they had soil problems. So $125M for four miles of highway in the middle of nowhere that nobody really needs because in the distant future it might connect to other highways to make the Toronto-Miami trip a little faster. That's a boondoggle to me.

[The_Admiral]

Sweet truck bypass, I guess, but I'm gonna go ahead and call this a future boondoggle.

[illwauk]

Streetcars/light rail always strike me as closing the barn door after the horse is out, but best of luck anyway, I guess.

Well, the proverbial horse is returning to the barn in most of the cities that are building them.

[OnWis97]

Streetcars/light rail always strike me as closing the barn door after the horse is out, but best of luck anyway, I guess.

Well, the proverbial horse is returning to the barn in most of the cities that are building them.

The real sad thing is that in some cities, they never should have been removed in the first place. There is some exploration of this going on in Minneapolis/St. Paul now and sometimes when there is construction you can still see tracks a few layers below. Removing it and then rebuilding it decades later is pretty inefficient. I guess in the 50s nobody considered the possibility that developing entirely on the personal automobile may not be totally sustainable forever.

[RyanB06]

You guys have me confused with the talk about Cobb County law enforcement. My job interacts with law enforcement in another county and I've lived in metro Atlanta for 12 years now. I had no perception whatsoever of anything different about Cobb County in terms of law enforcement. I just did an informal survey of 5 colleagues, 3 of whom are black. All who have lived in metro Atlanta for years. None of them had any misgivings about Cobb County or thought anything was different about law enforcement there.

We're all of course familiar with the embarassment that was Forsyth County in the past. You're talking as if Cobb is like that.

<SNIP>

Edit: Talked with someone else at work who said in his opinion Cobb County cops are overly aggressive. He had witnessed at least one instance in which cops "jacked up" (his words) a subject who was trying to comply with their instructions. So maybe there's something to that.

You do know any Cobb County law enforcement reference is a reference to this guy, right?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Kmw19Vn0Yio/Tnv746cs-sI/AAAAAAAAADw/JbFaCOwkV9c/s1600/big+boss+man.jpg