Braves Join Falcons in Abandoning Perfectly Good Facility

[HedleyLamarr]

I'm not saying it isn't accurate but the map that the Braves keep referring to was made by...the Braves. Take that for what it's worth.

The Braves are also a business, not a social program for the city.....

[Cosmic]

I'm not saying it isn't accurate but the map that the Braves keep referring to was made by...the Braves. Take that for what it's worth.

The Braves are also a business, not a social program for the city.....

WHY DON'T YOU JUST LET US RUN OUR PRIVATE BUSINESS THE WAY WE WANT?!?! KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MY BUSINESS!!!! 'MURICA!!!!

That check for $300,000,000 in taxpayer money is still in the mail, right? We're cool? OK, good.

[BlueSky]

The guy said "we don't want city people who are too poor to own cars to come here." Seeing as this is not New York where you can make decent money and still not own a car, this is pretty overt.

So city people who are too poor to own cars have to be non-whites? I had no idea you were such a racist.

Like it or not, and justified or not, extending mass transit into a given area is often perceived as a downgrade in terms of increased crime and general decline. If there's evidence to either support or contradict that, I'd love to see it.

Let's leave that aside and talk specifics. MARTA is often unreliable or just not worth the trouble. When I worked at Delta I would have loved to ride MARTA, to the point that I asked Delta to explore running a shuttle bus during rush hour from the MARTA station to their headquarters. They ran such a service to and from ATL* but ended up saying a MARTA connection wouldn't be economically feasible (a consideration usually lacking when it comes to government).

That left my potential commute as taking a bus to a train to another bus then walking a few blocks to the building. A conservative estimate would have been easily doubling my time en route each way every day. Sorry, no thanks.

But since I do believe in mass transit, I try to use it whenever possible. So when I had a chance to take MARTA to the airport, I did. Their tardiness led to my missing my flight even though from my airline days I'm a freak about leaving early when catching flights (it was unacceptable to be late as a non-rev). The train was almost an hour late at my stop and then just inexplicably sat idle in various stations along the way.

As Wikipedia puts it, "Due to no funding from the state of Georgia and its limited funding from Fulton and DeKalb counties, MARTA has struggled for many years to provide adequate service to the metropolitan area. As a result, MARTA has gained a notorious reputation throughout the metro Atlanta area for being ineffective and inconvenient " Oh, and it's also a perennial money-loser.

If you want to have the bigger debate on funding of roads vs. mass transit etc., fine. But the knee-jerk reaction of our resident high-horse brigade is "those racist elitists don't want poor black people up there in their lily-white suburb!" Well, maybe the real story is that they just don't want any part of a crappy unreliable transit system that sucks away money like a Dyson on steroids.

===

* There is a MARTA station at ATL but it's wouldn't be feasible to commute there and take the Delta bus because it also stops at other Delta locations along the way. This makes it easily a 20 minute trip and sometimes more.

[CS85]

The guy said "we don't want city people who are too poor to own cars to come here." Seeing as this is not New York where you can make decent money and still not own a car, this is pretty overt.

So city people who are too poor to own cars have to be non-whites? I had no idea you were such a racist.

Hold on, before you continue let me grab a chair.

*ahem* Okay, proceed. Don't mind me.

[BBTV]

Wow - the south really us a different place.

Here, extending mass transit into all but the absolute most affluent (I.e. a top-5 zip code, of which there is one here) suburban areas actually significantly increases the value of homes in those areas. There was just an article in our paper about how various "white" suburbs want regional rail lines re activated or constructed where they don't exist.

Not owning a car is kind of a badge of honor. Not so much in the city, where it's just not practical, and there's enough car sharing programs, but now even in some burbs, people are giving up vehicles. It has nothing to do with being poor.

Honestly I've read it a hundred times. I can't see it for anything other than what the majority is saying - we don't want "city people" coming up to our county.

I've only been to Atlanta once - do affluent whites live in the urban core? It struck me as a place where the downtown was dead after business hours, and the only "city" places people desired to live were non - urban places like buckhead. This is only based on a 4 day business trip though.

Also, Vortex burgers are great.

[BlueSky]

@ BBTV, this is being oversimplifield. For example, it's a geographic issue too. Atlanta is much more of a sprawl-type area than many cities in other regions. The same is true of Dallas-Fort Worth. Look, as I said, I'm all for mass transit. But the reality is that in a place like this, the full cost of new lines (impact studies, land acquisition, etc. plus construction itself) is arguably prohibitive in and of itself. We're talking billions in a time when state and local governments are already struggling just to operate and repair established infrastructure badly in need of repair and upkeep.

What is (or was) missing here is vision. You could compare it to interstates. Had the vision not existed back in the '50s, it's unlikely we could justify constructing the interstate system from scratch today. MARTA is so small compared to the area it would have to cover to be viable that it would essentially be starting from scratch.

My point is that it's far more complicated than "we don't want them in our county." There may be, probably is, some of that in play, but it's nowhere near the full story and it's not what's driving Cobb County's attitude toward mass transit.

@ CS85, I was only making a point about making assumptions. Somebody posted something elsewhere recently that I think resonates with a lot of people. It said, "Racism sucks. So does being falsely accused of racism."

[The_Admiral]

The guy said "we don't want city people who are too poor to own cars to come here." Seeing as this is not New York where you can make decent money and still not own a car, this is pretty overt.

So city people who are too poor to own cars have to be non-whites? I had no idea you were such a racist.

oh god

Like it or not, and justified or not, extending mass transit into a given area is often perceived as a downgrade in terms of increased crime and general decline. If there's evidence to either support or contradict that, I'd love to settle it.

So Chicago is building ridiculously expensive Green Line stations next to shiny new condo developments because they're in "general decline"? This is stultifying.

I know MARTA sucks. Everyone knows MARTA sucks. It was built with too much resistance in the first place to be effective. But saying you want highway development and most certainly not rail transit development sure sounds like a dog whistle to me.

[njmeadowlanders]

I'm not saying it isn't accurate but the map that the Braves keep referring to was made by...the Braves. Take that for what it's worth.

The Braves are also a business, not a social program for the city.....

And that is exactly my point. What better way to leave your current location while simultaneously being able to a) snag hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars and mitigate to a large extent any PR nightmare? It's win-win.

[BlueSky]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

What I would like to know is whether there were any viable sites on a MARTA line where a business case would justify the site. If there ws and the Braves consciously chose to avoid MARTA, that would be something to scrutinize.

On a philosophical level, I get the consternation over addressing transportation by building more roads. Sooner or later it won't matter whether every highway is 15 lanes in each direction, the traffic will be bad all the time. Mass transit is clearly a better option. But is there a tipping point where mass transit simply becomes financially prohibitive? A "that ship has sailed" point where we're just doomed to deal with driving and traffic if we choose to live where that point has been reached?

[WSU151]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

[BlueSky]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

Awww, come on...we need various points of view.

[dfwabel]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

Awww, come on...we need various points of view.

I'll bite.

In moving from southwest of the CBD towards the north and out of the city limits, Braves management/ownership just gave up on having minorities within their fanbase. Regardless if they have a car, the minority residents of Fulton and Gwinnett Counties will not drive out there because of the Cobb County law enforcement.

Before the new stadium opens, they will rid themselves of the Uptons and Heyward. While all three of them are not batting well, they will all be gone before 2017.

Justin Upton: Contract runs through 2015.

Jason Heyward: Arbitration eligible now through 2015 and will be a FA in 2016.

BJ Upton: Contract runs through 2017, but he will to be traded before then.

And as a sport whose title series had an average viewer age of 57, they have given up on marketing to minorities and in the same vein marketing to youth.

[illwauk]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America.

Frankly, I could go with either one.

[WSU151]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

[DG_ThenNowForever]

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

[WSU151]

N/m. Wanted to rant...but not worth it.

Awww, come on...we need various points of view.

Other points of view on this board are dangerous. Can't point out the elephant in the room even when it's abundantly clear.

@ the admiral, I meant the perception is that decline follows mass transit extensions so can we wait a few years before using the Chicago Green Line example to refute? It's also apples and oranges to compare Atlanta or any other sprawl city with little mass transit presence to places where the extensions are on well-established systems that are commonly used. That obviously makes more sense than spending billions to expand MARTA.

Streetcar prompts plan for crossroads apartments.

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development

Once Nearly Extinct, Streetcar Gets New Life in US

More than a year from operation, Kansas City's streetcar is already driving investment downtown.

There seems to be an awful lot of urban planners and investors in an awful lot of different cities getting it wrong if rail transit does indeed beget crime and blight. Either Atlanta's north burbs are full of bigots who don't want to be around the poor and/or minorities safer because there aren't people trying to mug you when the sun goes down, or it's a joke of a metro area that's laughably out of step with the rest of Urban America

Frankly, I could go with either one.

Clearly you've never been to Atlanta (which makes sense, because it's not in the downtown Milwaukee area). In the ATL, there are unfortunately a lot of places in the city where you don't want to be if you're white. Not racism. It's just the inconvenient truth.

A lot of blacks are racist against whites and don't like them. Imagine that.

In other news...a if LA put a rail through Compton, it won't make Compton any safer...I wonder why...

Why?

Because it's part of the culture. Once the culture changes, money will flow in.

[Gothamite]

Right.

Is this one of those "accidentally say what you mean" moments we were talking about?

[WSU151]

Right.

Is this one of those "accidentally say what you mean" moments we were talking about?

Is that against the rules? Does this reality conflict with your utopia?

There's a reason why most of the money in DC is in NW and not SE. Everyone knows why too. We don't live in a pretend world.

[The_Admiral]

Milwaukee has just as much segregation as Atlanta does. Places you don't want to be if you're white aren't a foreign concept there, or in any major city.

I just can't get over how wrong it is that extending rapid transit into areas is a harbinger of economic ruin. I mean, I get the fear that the poors can get somewhere they wouldn't otherwise be able to get, but it doesn't actually end up working that way. If it did, the NIMBYs would either be powerful enough to stop it from happening in the first place or they'd rip up the tracks at the first sign of things going south. New York is interconnected enough that you can get anywhere from anywhere, and they're certainly no worse for it; if anything, no one can stop Brooklyn real estate from skyrocketing. In Chicago, you can get from 95th to Wilmette with just one transfer, but last I checked, Wilmette is still one of the richest cities in America and the people there like being able to get to their jobs downtown for practically nothing.

I don't know that there's a proper solution to this whole thing, really. I mean, Atlanta is a nightmare in terms of city planning. It sounds like the current infrastructural situation around Turner Field is bad, and it sounds like the new one is going to be even worse. But how could they have made Turner Field's situation better? I'm not sure that they could have. They've cast their lot with expressways and sprawl and it's too late ever to go back. MARTA is so incomplete and dysfunctional that you'd have to think it was sabotaged from the get-go; that's not going to fix anything. If that's the kind of world they want to make for themselves down there, then that's their choice. It's just not one that lends itself to getting lots of people in and out of one location in a timely manner. Good luck with it.

We should remind ourselves, before this gets out of hand, that the comment we're breaking down here came not from anyone in the Atlanta Braves but from the leader of the Cobb County Republican Party. Not that the Braves haven't put their foot in their mouth with this whole thing (I personally like the one about how getting 20 years out of a stadium built to last three weeks ain't too shabby), but the stuff about not wanting people to come from the city by train is from a political party that abhors government handouts for rail transit but adores government investment in highways, and that the contemporary Republican Party + The South tends to = a lot of bad feelings, racially speaking.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Simply, you get results when you invest resources in something. If you invest major transportation infrastructure in certain neighborhoods, those neighborhoods tend to be better off. Perhaps not for the people that were there prior to investment, but generally, the neighborhood improves. Especially in the 2010s and especially after the general trend of affluence returning to cities.

The majority of cities in this world have one thing in common -- strong public transportation. Many of them (like New York, Beijing or Paris) require rail transit because there simply isn't enough room on the roads for everyone to have cars. Other cities in the US, like Dallas, Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver and Salt Lake City have all recognized that roads can't be the sole transportation solution -- you have to have high capacity transit to move large amounts of people among multiple key destinations. Very frequently, key destinations include sports stadia, especially if they host 20,000+ people 81 nights a year.

The Braves' thinking here is entirely backwards from the way smart communities plan the ways to move people to sporting events, and the way you integrate sporting venues into the fabric of the cities they're based in. They're often downtown, they're often well-served by transit, and everyone is often better off for it.

I don't know Atlanta well, but I have lived in the South. My experience is that race is very much at the forefront of social interactions,, and you can't say that certain parties aren't ecstatic about this move because of racial reasons. This is a stupid move for obvious land use reasons, and a stupid move for the social reasons slightly below the surface.