Braves Join Falcons in Abandoning Perfectly Good Facility

[BBTV]

It's actually nice to see a team that moves away from a city center especially with most teams playing in a downtown setting.

No, it isn't nice at all. Part of what makes the ballpark so compelling as a sports venue is the juxtaposition of the urban and the pastoral. There's also a nice dash of populist spirit to the way a neighborhood grows around a stadium, dependent on but also independent of the team. When people talk about how great it would be for the Cubs to move to the suburbs so that the children of the corn can build their own stores and a hotel in the parking lot, I want to throw up. Besides, it seems like all these grand plans for team-controlled revenue streams always go balls-up anyway. Remember how the Cardinals were going to build the Ballpark Village around the new stadium and it was going to revitalize downtown St. Louis and so on, and all it ended up being was a puddle in a pile of gravel?

The Flyers kind of have the whole controlled revenue thing going with the Xfinity Live thing down in the sports complex. It's a single giant liquor and food license for a place that's "chopped up" to give the appearance of competing bars / restaurants all under one big roof. In fact, these restaurants (which in some cases, have the names of actual bars that have what I would assume to be sponsorship deals) are serviced by either Aramark or an equivilant (I would assume Aramark, since it's in Philly.) So the Flyers make money from people going to Phillies games, Eagles games, and Sixers games. Not to mention, from your cable bill.

That's what I hate about the sports complex. There's nothing around there, so there's no way for anything to develop organically. It's not suburban, but it might as well be. It's certainly not urban. It's possibly the greatest tailgating place that there could possibly be, but it sucks.

[FiddySicks]

It's actually nice to see a team that moves away from a city center especially with most teams playing in a downtown setting.

No, it isn't nice at all. Part of what makes the ballpark so compelling as a sports venue is the juxtaposition of the urban and the pastoral. There's also a nice dash of populist spirit to the way a neighborhood grows around a stadium, dependent on but also independent of the team. When people talk about how great it would be for the Cubs to move to the suburbs so that the children of the corn can build their own stores and a hotel in the parking lot, I want to throw up. Besides, it seems like all these grand plans for team-controlled revenue streams always go balls-up anyway. Remember how the Cardinals were going to build the Ballpark Village around the new stadium and it was going to revitalize downtown St. Louis and so on, and all it ended up being was a puddle in a pile of gravel?

The Flyers kind of have the whole controlled revenue thing going with the Xfinity Live thing down in the sports complex. It's a single giant liquor and food license for a place that's "chopped up" to give the appearance of competing bars / restaurants all under one big roof. In fact, these restaurants (which in some cases, have the names of actual bars that have what I would assume to be sponsorship deals) are serviced by either Aramark or an equivilant (I would assume Aramark, since it's in Philly.) So the Flyers make money from people going to Phillies games, Eagles games, and Sixers games. Not to mention, from your cable bill.

That's what I hate about the sports complex. There's nothing around there, so there's no way for anything to develop organically. It's not suburban, but it might as well be. It's certainly not urban. It's possibly the greatest tailgating place that there could possibly be, but it sucks.

That last line sums up the thought behind the Glendale Westgate complex pretty much to a T.

[dbadefense1990]

It's actually nice to see a team that moves away from a city center especially with most teams playing in a downtown setting.

No, it isn't nice at all. Part of what makes the ballpark so compelling as a sports venue is the juxtaposition of the urban and the pastoral. There's also a nice dash of populist spirit to the way a neighborhood grows around a stadium, dependent on but also independent of the team. When people talk about how great it would be for the Cubs to move to the suburbs so that the children of the corn can build their own stores and a hotel in the parking lot, I want to throw up. Besides, it seems like all these grand plans for team-controlled revenue streams always go balls-up anyway. Remember how the Cardinals were going to build the Ballpark Village around the new stadium and it was going to revitalize downtown St. Louis and so on, and all it ended up being was a puddle in a pile of gravel?

Cardinals fans?

[The_Admiral]

Ricketts kids.

[BlueSky]

I wouldn't read anything into the artist's rendering as far as the ballpark design. I think that concept drawing is more to show what they're planning for the layout and the surrounding area as opposed to what the stadium itself will look like.

The presentation - eye-rollingly titled "An Investment for the Fans" - is here (PDF).

Count me as one in favor of downtown ballparks. Some, like Pittsburgh's, are such that if I happened to be visiting the city during the season I would make a point to go to a game. In fact, when my wife and I were in SF we did just that to see the Giants and I even took a tour of AT&T Park.

Places like Arlington? Not so much. That's a nice stadium (I used to live there and follow the Rangers) but I wouldn't go out of my way to attend a game there.

[Sport]

It's actually nice to see a team that moves away from a city center especially with most teams playing in a downtown setting.

No, it isn't nice at all. Part of what makes the ballpark so compelling as a sports venue is the juxtaposition of the urban and the pastoral. There's also a nice dash of populist spirit to the way a neighborhood grows around a stadium, dependent on but also independent of the team. When people talk about how great it would be for the Cubs to move to the suburbs so that the children of the corn can build their own stores and a hotel in the parking lot, I want to throw up. Besides, it seems like all these grand plans for team-controlled revenue streams always go balls-up anyway. Remember how the Cardinals were going to build the Ballpark Village around the new stadium and it was going to revitalize downtown St. Louis and so on, and all it ended up being was a puddle in a pile of gravel?

I hate to be the guy who's always relating everything to my home teams and home city and I really hate to defend the Cardinals in anyway, but here in Cincinnati we had a puddle in a pile of gravel outside our new ballpark for almost a decade. Today there's really fun bars and restaurants, nice apartments that are pretty much full, they close the street and let you walk around with your drinks. Now the area around GABP is awesome on gamedays (and most weekend nights come to think of it) and really aids the ballgame going experience.

For the first 5, 6, 7, 8 years the ballpark was by itself next to the river next to a hole in the ground and it wasn't a fun place to be unless you were in the stadium. Now, I go down there sometimes for big weekend games even if I don't have a ticket because it's such a fun atmosphere. "Ballpark villages" can work, but they take time.

(I say all this without a lick of knowledge about St. Louis' ballpark village plans.)

[The_Admiral]

Right after I posted it, I saw that they started work on the first phase of the Ballpark Village and it should be open for next season. This after it wasn't open for eight seasons, so by the clock we're on nowadays, I guess that gives them twelve years to enjoy it before it's time to move to Edwardsville.

[pcgd]

For the Ballpark village, It won't have the charm had that area developed organically, but it looks like its going to be pretty nice and miles better than a hole in the ground/parking lot/softball field which has been there for the last 8 years. Its a shell of what the initial plan was:

Original:

(see all those shinny tall buildings? yeah those were in the original plan…)

Current:

My bet is that's all that ever happens. They say this is phase 1 but I can't imagine them actually doing anything beyond this considering this is all that has been built in 8 years.

The good news is the downtown area seems to be getting much much better. Last time I was there was a few years ago and I would say it was at best, sketchy when the Cardinals weren't playing. Now there are a great number of unique restaurants, people walking around, well lit streets. It seems to be moving in the right direction despite the ballpark village, not because of it.

[BlueSky]

On a completely unrelated note that involves St. Louis, the City Museum was one of the most remarkable and memorable places I've ever been in all my travels. Just awesome and not only for kids.

[bosrs1]

For the Ballpark village, It won't have the charm had that area developed organically, but it looks like its going to be pretty nice and miles better than a hole in the ground/parking lot/softball field which has been there for the last 8 years. Its a shell of what the initial plan was:

Original:

(see all those shinny tall buildings? yeah those were in the original plan…)

Current:

My bet is that's all that ever happens. They say this is phase 1 but I can't imagine them actually doing anything beyond this considering this is all that has been built in 8 years.

The good news is the downtown area seems to be getting much much better. Last time I was there was a few years ago and I would say it was at best, sketchy when the Cardinals weren't playing. Now there are a great number of unique restaurants, people walking around, well lit streets. It seems to be moving in the right direction despite the ballpark village, not because of it.

Big difference with St. Louis too though is that of course the ballpark village was built downtown along with the ballpark. It wasn't built out in the burbs.

[pcgd]

I was mainly calling out the fact that when you look at what they pitched vs. what we're getting (8 years after it was to be delivered) its pales in comparison so much. And its a sign beause St. Louis isn't the first place its happened too. It ALREADY happens to Atlanta. That area was to be built up like this ball park village but it never happened. And it sounds like its the Braves fault. I'm sure there have been many other stadiums this has happened to. In fact its probably easier to figure out what mixed land usage stadiums have actually delivered the mixed use vs. those that haven't.

[bosrs1]

I was mainly calling out the fact that when you look at what they pitched vs. what we're getting (8 years after it was to be delivered) its pales in comparison so much. And its a sign beause St. Louis isn't the first place its happened too. It ALREADY happens to Atlanta. That area was to be built up like this ball park village but it never happened. And it sounds like its the Braves fault. I'm sure there have been many other stadiums this has happened to. In fact its probably easier to figure out what mixed land usage stadiums have actually delivered the mixed use vs. those that haven't.

Petco Park is the first one that springs to mind. The stadium funding deal with San Diego required the team owner to build $300 million worth of development around the ballpark, which he proceeded to do and it shows with all the skyscrapers, hotels, resturants and retail that went up around the park in properties owned by the then Padres owner John Moores. And still more development might be coming in the future if the city and landowners to the east can agree on what to build and specifically where.

[FiddySicks]

I was mainly calling out the fact that when you look at what they pitched vs. what we're getting (8 years after it was to be delivered) its pales in comparison so much. And its a sign beause St. Louis isn't the first place its happened too. It ALREADY happens to Atlanta. That area was to be built up like this ball park village but it never happened. And it sounds like its the Braves fault. I'm sure there have been many other stadiums this has happened to. In fact its probably easier to figure out what mixed land usage stadiums have actually delivered the mixed use vs. those that haven't.

I'm not sure if it's exactly the same, but the China Basin in San Francisco used to be downright awful before AT&T Park was built. You had the China Basin building and a bunch of bums. It was basically San Francisco's version of skid row. Now, the China Basin near AT&T is one of the most expensive spots in the city in terms of real estate prices. There are some great bars and restaurants around that area now too. It used to be somewhat forgotten territory before the Giants moved there.

[dfwabel]

I was mainly calling out the fact that when you look at what they pitched vs. what we're getting (8 years after it was to be delivered) its pales in comparison so much. And its a sign beause St. Louis isn't the first place its happened too. It ALREADY happens to Atlanta. That area was to be built up like this ball park village but it never happened. And it sounds like its the Braves fault. I'm sure there have been many other stadiums this has happened to. In fact its probably easier to figure out what mixed land usage stadiums have actually delivered the mixed use vs. those that haven't.

I'm not sure if it's exactly the same, but the China Basin in San Francisco used to be downright awful before AT&T Park was built. You had the China Basin building and a bunch of bums. It was basically San Francisco's version of skid row. Now, the China Basin near AT&T is one of the most expensive spots in the city in terms of real estate prices. There are some great bars and restaurants around that area now too. It used to be somewhat forgotten territory before the Giants moved there.

It is not the same as the creation of UCSF Mission Bay campus played a larger role in the real estate price increase and the sustainability of dining in the area than the stadium.

[GriffinM6]

Something I reallly dislike about the location. A lot of fans come from my area, which is about 30-40 miles East and Northeast from where the stadium is going to be. To get there from where I live, you'd have to go on 285. 5-6 o'clock traffic on that interstate is terrible. This new stadium is just going to make traffic worse.

The thing I do like about this, is that it gives the Braves the chance to have a unique ballpark. Right now Turner Field sucks. The outfield wall is the most generic shape of all fences, and doesn't look cool. The overall stadium fell isn't that great either. Sure it's exciting going to a game, but Turner Field isn't very unique. It's kind of boring if you ask me.

[BlueSky]

To Griffinmarlins point, I think there's the potential for the new park and anything positive about to be instantly overshadowed by the howls of people stuck in traffic, fans en route to the stadium and otherwise. Atlantans are already a late-arriving crowd so by the time they battle through 285 some of these people may take their seats just in time for the 7th inning stretch. Others will be missing flights or getting home 45 minutes later than usual from work.

It's really that bad.

[The_Admiral]

I hope this amazing backlash shuts up the "Cubs should move to Rosemont so they can do whatever they want!" knuckleheads once and for all.

[rams80]

Right after I posted it, I saw that they started work on the first phase of the Ballpark Village and it should be open for next season. This after it wasn't open for eight seasons, so by the clock we're on nowadays, I guess that gives them twelve years to enjoy it before it's time to move to Edwardsville.

How the crap did Madison County get that kind of money?

[rams80]

Something I reallly dislike about the location. A lot of fans come from my area, which is about 30-40 miles East and Northeast from where the stadium is going to be. To get there from where I live, you'd have to go on 285. 5-6 o'clock traffic on that interstate is terrible. This new stadium is just going to make traffic worse.

The thing I do like about this, is that it gives the Braves the chance to have a unique ballpark. Right now Turner Field sucks. The outfield wall is the most generic shape of all fences, and doesn't look cool. The overall stadium fell isn't that great either. Sure it's exciting going to a game, but Turner Field isn't very unique. It's kind of boring if you ask me.

So they're going to be the Dodgers?

[HedleyLamarr]

To Griffinmarlins point, I think there's the potential for the new park and anything positive about to be instantly overshadowed by the howls of people stuck in traffic, fans en route to the stadium and otherwise. Atlantans are already a late-arriving crowd so by the time they battle through 285 some of these people may take their seats just in time for the 7th inning stretch. Others will be missing flights or getting home 45 minutes later than usual from work.

It's really that bad.

I don't think traffic will be as big an issue as everyone's making it out to be.

Whether you want to believe the map's ticket-purchasing demographics are true or not (and knowing what I know about the Hawks and Thrashers, that map isn't inaccurate), the majority of the consistent ticket-buyers are closer to the proposed site than they are to Turner Field. They won't have to worry about leaving downtown at 5pm, going home to pick up the wife and kids, and driving back downtown. Traffic heading downtown (even during the evening rush-hours) isn't any better that the current traffic issues at 285/75.

Secondly, no one seems to figure that getting to/from the ballpark hasn't been factored in. People are foolish if they believe that this stadium's getting built but nothing changes to that 75/285/Cobb Parkway area.