NFL Merry-Go-Round: Relocation Roundelay

[Gothamite]

A team can play in the suburbs and still unquestionably be the city's team.

See the Giants, Jets, Cowboys and many other examples.

[bosrs1]

A team can play in the suburbs and still unquestionably be the city's team.

See the Giants, Jets, Cowboys and many other examples.

Bingo. When it comes to Industry, it's still "LA". It's all the same big market. The IE you can make a better argument for being separate, but fact is the IE too is the "territory" of all of LA and OC's teams.

[The_Admiral]

They'd never put a stadium as far out as San Ber'dino, anyway.

[CubsFanBudMan]

I am attending my first game at the Edward Jones Dome and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised after all of the negative talk. It still looks new to me. Certainly not modern, but I'm up in the rafters ($15 doesn't buy what it used to) and I have a decent sightline and am much closer to the action than I was at Cowboys Stadium in the 2nd row of the top deck.

Looking around, they have a mezz and the decks are divided in ways that I could see a renovation adding the necessary club/suite seats or whatever it is it lacks. Of course, I don't know what sacrifices would need to be made in attendance counts for that, but today it certainly wouldn't matter.

[rams80]

I am attending my first game at the Edward Jones Dome and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised after all of the negative talk. It still looks new to me. Certainly not modern, but I'm up in the rafters ($15 doesn't buy what it used to) and I have a decent sightline and am much closer to the action than I was at Cowboys Stadium in the 2nd row of the top deck.

Looking around, they have a mezz and the decks are divided in ways that I could see a renovation adding the necessary club/suite seats or whatever it is it lacks. Of course, I don't know what sacrifices would need to be made in attendance counts for that, but today it certainly wouldn't matter.

I'm noticing a lot of red in the stadium shots, especially in the upper bowl, on the TV today. Please confirm whether or not much of today's "sellout crowd" came disguised as seats.

[CubsFanBudMan]

I just relocated to the top row because I had a guy sit right next to me when there's plenty of room to spread out and the women behind me did not stop talking for the entire first quarter. And it wasn't about football.

I have five full empty rows in front of me in my section. From my vantage point I can see at least that many completely open in four other sections. There's red sprinked throughout, which is too bad considering they are honoring Marshall Faulk at halftime.

Loving the throwbacks, though.

[Gothamite]

The Rams have a policy of buying up the unsold tickets to avoid blackouts, so you can trust that their "sellouts" never are.

[STL FANATIC]

They buy them up if they reach a certain threshold. It means they're coming close enough that they feel comfortable doing so. While I'm sure that WAS the case this time, it's also worth noting that there's probably a good chunk of people who bought tickets and simply chose it wasn't worth their time to go see. While I'd go, I have trouble blaming them.

But whether or not we want to acknowledge them as sellouts, I'll say this next part one more time.

The Rams are two games away from being 15-65 the past 5 years. During MNF last week, the announcers mentioned how that would be the worst 5 year span in the NFL since the 1930s. And that's with last years "good" 7-9 year. In the other years they've gone 3-13, 2-14, 1-15, then the slight uptick, and now they're 2-12 with two to go.

Does anybody think there's more than a handful of markets in the league that would easily sell-out games under the same circumstances? Because I don't buy it. I think there's markets that could do pretty similar to what St. Louis has during that time. A blackout here and there, but mostly they nearly sellout and then the team or a local business buys them up. But only a handful of markets would do better in the same circumstance.

I can acknowledge that the situation that's developing allows for a reasonable chance the Rams will move. But that's a different discussion. If the discussion becomes that St. Louis has done a poor job supporting the franchise and doesn't deserve the team, then I'll contest that hotly. I understand deserving doesn't always matter, and that's where I acknowledge the situation could still wind up with them leaving. But St. Louis has done beyond an admiral job supporting one of the all time worst teams in NFL history.

Lastly, as far as the stadium goes, it's really not that bad of a place to watch a game. It doesn't have a lot of character, but it's not dumpy either. It had all the character it needed when they were a great team. So as far as basic fan experience goes, I think the only upgrade that needs to be made is to the team that plays inside it. But as far as money making goes, I imagine there's a lot of suites and other things that owners like to have in their stadiums to increase revenue that aren't there. And because the lease says the stadium has to be top tier, it gives the owners the leverage to demand. And that's why there's an issue. But if you ever here a regular fan complain about the environment, I basically guarantee they wouldn't notice if the team on the field was exciting. Nobody did 10 years ago.

[rams80]

The Rams are two games away from being 15-65 the past 5 years. During MNF last week, the announcers mentioned how that would be the worst 5 year span in the NFL since the 1930s. And that's with last years "good" 7-9 year. In the other years they've gone 3-13, 2-14, 1-15, then the slight uptick, and now they're 2-12 with two to go.

Does anybody think there's more than a handful of markets in the league that would easily sell-out games under the same circumstances? Because I don't buy it. I think there's markets that could do pretty similar to what St. Louis has during that time. A blackout here and there, but mostly they nearly sellout and then the team or a local business buys them up. But only a handful of markets would do better in the same circumstance.

Rebuttal: The blackouts started before the bottom fell out of the team on the field, and support was on the wane before that. Additionally, the Rams ended up buying up 10s of thousands of tickets in 1998 to avert blackouts back then. Makes you wonder where the support would be without the Super Bowl.

[STL FANATIC]

The Rams are two games away from being 15-65 the past 5 years. During MNF last week, the announcers mentioned how that would be the worst 5 year span in the NFL since the 1930s. And that's with last years "good" 7-9 year. In the other years they've gone 3-13, 2-14, 1-15, then the slight uptick, and now they're 2-12 with two to go.

Does anybody think there's more than a handful of markets in the league that would easily sell-out games under the same circumstances? Because I don't buy it. I think there's markets that could do pretty similar to what St. Louis has during that time. A blackout here and there, but mostly they nearly sellout and then the team or a local business buys them up. But only a handful of markets would do better in the same circumstance.

Rebuttal: The blackouts started before the bottom fell out of the team on the field, and support was on the wane before that. Additionally, the Rams ended up buying up 10s of thousands of tickets in 1998 to avert blackouts back then. Makes you wonder where the support would be without the Super Bowl.

When did they start? The team had been on the wane before that. After the three real glory years, the Rams went 7-9 and then back to 12-4. Then the real slide started. 8-8, 6-10, 8-8. They went to real hell. I called out 5 years, but this was slide 8 years in the making. They haven't had a winning record since 2003.

And I'm sure fan support without the Super Bowl would be pretty low. That's how sports work. Organizations have to at some point prove their worth if fans are going to commit to them. St. Louis inherited a crappy team from LA. And they were crappy right up until the 1999 season.

The Rams had three years that were incredibly successful. And as that reign slipped, they snuck another good year in their two. Aside from that, St. Louis has been witness to some of the worst football the NFL has seen in the last 17 years.

[rams80]

The last 8-8 season. Mind you this was for a team that was in the playoff hunt.

I also think that NFL markets with good support should go more than 2 years without a playoff spot, 3 years without a division title, and 5 years without a Super Bowl appearance before being blacked out.

[Gothamite]

At least.

While I'm sympthetic to the "bad football" argument, if it's true that they were having attendance problems in 1998, significant enough to require they buy thousands (or tens of thousands) of their own tickets, that's pathetic.

I don't care how "crappy" a new team is. Did they want a team, or not? If the answer was "yes, but only if it's a great one," then the market can't support a franchise.

The Rams moved to St. Louis in 1995. In its fourth season, a team should still be drawing crowds. Three years isn't enough for them to lose that "new franchise" smell.

I can't believe St. Louis gave up on them that early. Are you sure about the year? I'm very skeptical.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Can you blame someone for not wanting to pay to see Tony Banks?

[rams80]

While I'm sympthetic to the "bad football" argument, if it's true that they were having attendance problems in 1998, significant enough to require they buy thousands (or tens of thousands) of their own tickets, that's pathetic.

I don't care how bad the football is. Three years after a team comes to town, they should still be drawing crowds. Three years isn't enough for them to lose that "new franchise" smell.

I can't believe St. Louis gave up on them that early. Are you sure about the year? I'm very skeptical.

Gentlemen: BEHOLD! EMPTY SEATS!

[Gothamite]

Oh, that's not good. When did they have their first blackout?

[Gothamite]

With all the talk above of seeing fields of red, you start to understand why most teams outfit their stadiums with team-colored seats.

I know from looking at photos of Jacksonville in recent seasons, you need a really wide shot or deep focus to see how many empty seats there are. In most close shots, the empty seats blend into the general teal blur of t-shirts, giving the illusion of a greater crowd. And, not surprisingly, those are the photographs that the team and league would prefer to put on their websites.

Red seats for the Rams creates the opposite effect, advertising the number of empty seats.

[bosrs1]

With all the talk above of seeing fields of red, you start to understand why most teams outfit their stadiums with team-colored seats.

I know from looking at photos of Jacksonville in recent seasons, you need a really wide shot or deep focus to see how many empty seats there are. In most close shots, the empty seats blend into the general teal blur of t-shirts, giving the illusion of a greater crowd. And, not surprisingly, those are the photographs that the team and league would prefer to put on their websites.

Red seats for the Rams creates the opposite effect, advertising the number of empty seats.

Not to be too off topic, but it's one of the reasons I don't want the Padres wearing brown. Petco would look a hell of alot more empty than it already does some nights.

But yeah the red seats in particular were a very bad idea with a blue team given the amount of trouble they've had with attendance.

[rams80]

Oh, that's not good. When did they have their first blackout?

Not until 2006. Officially all of those games were "sellouts".

1999 wasn't looking to get a good start either though.

[Gothamite]

Not to be too off topic, but it's one of the reasons I don't want the Padres wearing brown. Petco would look a hell of alot more empty than it already does some nights.

At the risk of taking us on that tangent, it doesn't bother me in baseball. Very few teams are expected to sell out every single game - it's part of the long marathon season, the ebb and flow. In baseball, you really judge a team's attendance over the course of a season, not any single night.

Each football game, on the other hand (and just to bring us back to the topic), is an Event. Teams need to sell them out, because they have so many fewer ticket-selling opportunities. And the once-a-week nature of the sport lends itself to sellouts. That's why the NFL can even have a blackout policy in the first place.

So dark green seats at Busch Stadium isn't a bad idea. Red seats in the dome sure was.

[The_Admiral]

It's not just the last few years that have been trying times. Outside of a mere handful of years, St. Louis has either had an awful football team or no football team. You can forgive them if they're not champing at the bit to support the NFL, especially when their time and money can go into the Cardinals instead and actually give them some happiness in return.