NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[The_Admiral]

8 hours ago, throwuascenario said:

I apologize if this is the wrong place for this, but I couldn't find another sports business related thread.

 

Does anyone else think that one of the reasons that the NHL, along with the NBA and MLB have fallen eons behind the NFL in popularity is because of how available the NFL makes games on TV?

 

Yes, and I've talked about this before a few times. People correctly bashed the Blackhawks for their retrograde TV policy, but there was nothing novel about it, they were just the last to let it go. Teams across the league kept home games on premium cable or off television completely well into the 1990s, and teams didn't air full schedules until the mid-2010s. I distinctly remember streaming games in 2012 that were just jumbotron feeds because neither team produced a telecast that night. The NHL should have been much more ambitious about maximizing and optimizing their television inventory at the local level.

 

Canadian markets were some of the worst at airing their own games at all -- the Nordiques couldn't get on TV for years because Molson owned the Habs and controlled the broadcast rights, the Jets hardly had local television because they couldn't afford it or didn't care. Canada didn't even have RSNs as we know them until 1998. 

 

And that's the other thing: you had a league where to most of the footprint, the game of the week didn't exist. They never figured out a way to get Hockey Night in Canada on in the States. Yes, it was "in Canada" and was functionally just a Leafs game, but still, that's a league's flagship telecast and most people couldn't see it. Imagine if Canadians couldn't watch Monday Night Football. You can't, it's deranged.

[BBTV]

Not sure if this belongs here or not but it could turn out to be a bad business decision. The Flyers, who have been completely lost since Ed Snider died, are now trying to convince the Sixers to stop with their arena plan and stay at the Wells Fargo center (which is basically a new arena after the last several years of renovations). They’re even offering them partial ownership in the arena. 
 

They also have this hare-brained plan of building a 6,000 seat concert venue near the WF center and an apartment complex that absolutely nobody will want to live in. 
 

Since Snider died, the Flyers have been completely hapless in all areas, whether on the business side or the hockey side. This seems like desperation because they know they’ll not only lose concerts and other events to the new Sixers arena, but will likely have conflicting dates that will impact NBCSN and possibly reduce the value of that deal - and maybe the Sixers pull out of that too. 
 

To say the Flyers are rudderless would be an understatement. People thought Harris was just fronting with his arena plan so that he could wrestle a stake in the WF center from the Flyers, but he very much means business. Never thought I’d see the day the Sixers have more power than the flyers, but that could very well be the case within 6 years. 

[The_Admiral]

What's the Sixers' situation now with the WFC? Do they get the same free rent that the Celtics get in exchange for not being in on running and profiting from the place? 

 

I read this a while ago: https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/commercial/sixers-arena-jefferson-station-septa-market-east-20230323.html about how not only would the new Sixers arena wipe out Chinatown, it would also screw up one of the main rail terminals downtown and turn it into another dark, gross Penn Station. Not a fan.

 

I'm against redundant arenas in general. I was in favor of letting DePaul basketball play at the United Center for free rather than get a taxpayer-funded arena that's nowhere near DePaul. Same here. But I agree: I never thought I'd see the day where the Sixers dictated terms to the Flyers.

[dont care]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:58 PM, throwuascenario said:

I apologize if this is the wrong place for this, but I couldn't find another sports business related thread.

 

Does anyone else think that one of the reasons that the NHL, along with the NBA and MLB have fallen eons behind the NFL in popularity is because of how available the NFL makes games on TV?

 

I've never understood why you woudn't do everything to copy the NFL if you're one of these leagues that is eating its dust. With the further decline of cable, teams in all 3 of those leagues should be giving their games away, at least locally, like the NFL does.

 

I'll use a baseball example because it applies to me, but the exact same thing could easily apply to the NHL or NBA:

 

I grew up in a market with no MLB team. A few years ago, I moved to a city that doesn't have one but is very close (1.5 hours) to one that does. I would've very likely became a fan of said team and bought tickets, merchandise, and contributed to ad sales by watching their games on TV. But I don't have cable and would've had to buy a Bally Sports+ subscription to watch them. Seeing how I didn't grow up a fan and have no current attachment to the team, that was more than I was willing to do. So I gave up on the idea and they've made exactly $0 off me since.

 

If your only marketing to people who are already fans of your product, you literally cannot grow your fanbase by definition. It boggles my mind that with all the revenue extra fans can bring in, that they'd nickel and dime people completely out of their fanbase by making their games inaccessible.

 

Look how many fans the Cubs brought in when WGN was nationally broadcasting their games. Astonishingly, exposing your brand to the widest possible audience works to expand your fanbase. Who would've thought?

The NFL only has to worry about broadcasting games for 5 total time slots during the week, and 16 games at most each week. Any other league easily triples that each week. It’s just not feasible especially when the NFL already owns the prime time slots.

[Digby]

I personally cannot fathom very many cities than can support more than one 18k arena. Feels like NYC and LA and that’s it. That’s always been the flashing warning light about this Sixers idea to me. How do the Twin Cities pull it off?

[Sec19Row53]

12 minutes ago, Digby said:

I personally cannot fathom very many cities than can support more than one 18k arena. Feels like NYC and LA and that’s it. That’s always been the flashing warning light about this Sixers idea to me. How do the Twin Cities pull it off?

They're two cities?

[Digby]

3 minutes ago, Sec19Row53 said:

They're two cities?

Oops, I said “cities” when I should have said “metropolitan statistical areas”, I’m sure Minneapolis and St. Paul have twice as many Drake concert attendees as Philadelphia.

[Sec19Row53]

32 minutes ago, Digby said:

Oops, I said “cities” when I should have said “metropolitan statistical areas”, I’m sure Minneapolis and St. Paul have twice as many Drake concert attendees as Philadelphia.

I know. I had to bust your chops

[BBTV]

5 hours ago, the admiral said:

What's the Sixers' situation now with the WFC? Do they get the same free rent that the Celtics get in exchange for not being in on running and profiting from the place? 

 

I read this a while ago: https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate/commercial/sixers-arena-jefferson-station-septa-market-east-20230323.html about how not only would the new Sixers arena wipe out Chinatown, it would also screw up one of the main rail terminals downtown and turn it into another dark, gross Penn Station. Not a fan.

 

I'm against redundant arenas in general. I was in favor of letting DePaul basketball play at the United Center for free rather than get a taxpayer-funded arena that's nowhere near DePaul. Same here. But I agree: I never thought I'd see the day where the Sixers dictated terms to the Flyers.

I’m in phone and would like to discuss more but can’t now. Here’s immediate thoughts. 
 

I’m not certain about the rent situation. Also while I LOVE Inga’s writing, that one particular article has been a rare one that’s been intensely criticized for blending fact with opinion, glossing over things like that the plan was modified to not interfere with the station (they were like “ok, we won’t put the court level underground. Cool.”) and not citing sources. She’s an architecture critic and very well educated in city planning and history (and a deserving Pulitzer winner) but that particular article fell a little short. I’m a member of SkyScraperPages, where Philly is among the most discussed cities in the country (probably 3rd), and she even got shredded there, where she’s usually held in high esteem.  There’s little-to-no impact on j Market East station (Jefferson is the recent corporate name.) and honestly - as a daily regional rail rider, it’s nothing special at all. There’s some tiles. Cool. There’s also urine and a lot of ‘80s mall going on - and not in a charming way. 

 

It’s totally privately funded, and it remains to be seen what (if any) impact it would have on Chinatown. That’s my biggest concern, and is why I was against that particular site for the Phillies ballpark, but there’s yet to be any actual explanation about how this particular plan will damage that community - it neighbors it, but doesn’t actually infringe on any of it, and there’s no evidence (at least that I’ve seen) that it would drive up values of anything that would push that community out. Most of it is owned not leased, and they’re not going to cannibalism themselves so some crappy sports bar can pay them higher rent. There’s also zero gentrification risk in that area, for lots of complicated reasons. The situation is very different than DCs, where eminent domain was used.  
 

I’m in favor of anything that forces improvements to mass transit and safety, and this plan does. I’m also in favor of anything that gets more people coming in on trains vs cars, and this would basically be our MSG.  That part of center city is a complete shiz hole, and has been my entire life. It’s a complete embarrassment, and it’s sad that tourists have to look at it because they don’t know any better that they should be in neighborhoods and not there. It’s pretty funny listening to scared suburban fans who fear anything that challenges their desire to drive their unnecessarily-large SUV to unnecessary surface parking lots. Anything that forces those patterns to change is a step in the right direction.  
 

This arena is a very complicated matter, and it’s a shame that so many are either “hell yeah!” or “worst. Idea. Ever.” 
 

EDIT: Ed Snider was low-key (or maybe not) one of the best founders/owners in all of sports. It’s been nothing short of astonishing what’s happened in the years since his death - and bewildering that there wasn’t a succession plan in place, and the “yeah it’s now Comcast-Spectacor, but really just Ed” deal is now “the hockey department of COMCAST, run by middle management”. 

[The_Admiral]

Great post. Thanks for making it.

 

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

Ed Snider was low-key (or maybe not) one of the best founders/owners in all of sports. It’s been nothing short of astonishing what’s happened in the years since his death - and bewildering that there wasn’t a succession plan in place, and the “yeah it’s now Comcast-Spectacor, but really just Ed” deal is now “the hockey department of COMCAST, run by middle management”. 

 

I agree. In a league with spectacularly terrible ownership, Snider was one of the decent ones, and really did an admirable job building Philadelphia hockey from the ground up. However, I'm not surprised there there wasn't much of a succession plan. I think the plan all along was to get the most of of Spectacor being a semi-autonomous arm of Comcast while he was alive and then make the Flyers fully part of the corporate family once he was gone. Corporations love doing that. Even Sony took advantage of Alex Trebek's death to put a tighter grip on Jeopardy.

 

I've always said that Philadelphia is the one American market in the NHL that has never faced an existential crisis or been dangerously bad. I don't think they're at early-2000s Rangers/mid-2000s Bruins levels of bad, yet, but they might be making inquiries on it.

[BBTV]

There was a time that Philadelphia was considered (by Sporting News) the “best hockey city in America”. 
 

https://www.nhl.com/flyers/news/philadelphia-named-best-hockey-city-by-i-the-sporting-news-i/c-434762
 

Snider had a lot in common to Steinbrenner, with the exception of the championships. But he was also exceptional in the community.  I don’t think the Flyers will ever be in “trouble”, since they (though “they” no longer literally means “they” like it “wink wink” did, and now literally means “the entity that owns them” still owns the arena, most of NBCSN (formerly all, but they ceded a share to the Phillies in their >$1B deal), and various other assets. But in terms of relevancy, other than the blue-collar Delco and Northeast people who would go to games if they were affordable, nobody at all cares. 
 

They also moved to the “other” FM sports radio station (along with the Sixers) and even fewer people listen to them (WIP retained the consolation prize of the Eagles and Phillies, and their evening show that doesn’t even have a permanent host now still outrates live sports on the other station.)

 

As a lad, I discovered hockey in ‘86-‘87, when they were in the finals every year (but you couldn’t watch any home games without Prism, and I was able to watch games by turning the giant antenna on our house to watch the Rangers channel) but fell out of love because we weren’t wealthy enough that I could actually play. 
 

but I still watched every game because I was used to it. Then lockout happened and I never got back into it. Then Snider died, and I’m not sure I could even get back on board if they made a miracle finals run. Combined with the general lowering of class (or maybe leveling out?) of the fan base and not wanting to be associated with them (granted, every fan base in every sport has that element, but as someone who lives here and rides trains with the few suburban fans brave enough to do that, I’m tired of listening to n-word and f-g from everyone in a Flyers jersey).  That’s always been there, but was the minority because of how many other fans they had that weren’t like that. But now they’re gone. 
 

it’s sad.  Shoulda kept the Phantoms and exiled the Flyers to Allentown instead. 

[The_Admiral]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

Combined with the general lowering of class (or maybe leveling out?) of the fan base and not wanting to be associated with them (granted, every fan base in every sport has that element, but as someone who lives here and rides trains with the few suburban fans brave enough to do that, I’m tired of listening to n-word and f-g from everyone in a Flyers jersey).  That’s always been there, but was the minority because of how many other fans they had that weren’t like that. But now they’re gone. 

So you're saying that the DSA kids posting "Gritty is a comrade" aren't going to Flyers games.

 

I don't know about the rest of that. NHL teams are never going to have the pure upstairs-downstairs coalition that NBA teams have, but I find it hard to believe that the fanbase is becoming more downscale, and if it is in spite of their efforts and the rising costs of hockey, well, that's a problem.

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, the admiral said:

So you're saying that the DSA kids posting "Gritty is a comrade" aren't going to Flyers games.

 

I don't know about the rest of that. NHL teams are never going to have the pure upstairs-downstairs coalition that NBA teams have, but I find it hard to believe that the fanbase is becoming more downscale, and if it is in spite of their efforts and the rising costs of hockey, well, that's a problem.

I’m not sure what DSA is, but that’s simply my observation from my eyes and other people I know that stopped following or caring after the lockout (even during the 2010 run).  But that doesn’t mean it’s definitely true, it’s just my observations and not backed by any data. 
 

For basically the whole 90s and early 00s, every game was basically sold out (there probably is stats on that) and it was the hardest ticket to get. Prices were ridiculously high and it became mostly corp tix. Now they have to run promotions, which at one time would have been unheard of. There’s still no way the poors are going, but maybe it’s easier now for regular folk (though ironically, most don’t care even though they can finally go). 
 

They also created what the Inquirer called a “hipster lounge” in the Center. Basically an area upstairs with couches and more of a lounge atmosphere where you could hang, whether or not you cared about the game (or your SO could hang with other of her friends while you and your boys watched the game). That flopped, obviously. 
 

I don’t pay attention to the goings on anymore other than what I read on blogs or talk to a few people about, so take my views with a grain of salt, but back in the Snider days, even when there was a bad year, you trusted that he would spend whatever it took or do whatever in order to fix it. Now, even if they have a good season somehow, it’ll be looked at as a fluke and the atmosphere will never go back. Again - I can’t stress enough that this is just my opinion based on what I encounter in my environment.  Bigger fans might view it differently. 

Arguably the biggest problem with the Flyers has ALWAYS been their loyalty to the guys from the 70s. Whether Bobby Clarke, Paul Holmgren, Bill barber, et al being involved in coaching, GMing, or advising, they’re stuck in an era that doesn’t exist anymore. 
 

There was recently an article about how even when Chuck Fletcher - the rare outsider brought in to be a GM - was in charge, there was literally a “council of elders” that could veto decisions and advised the Comcast suit that was running the Flyers on matters of hockey - again, with the 70s mentality. 
 

They were not consulted with Fletcher’s firing and Briere’s rise, and there’s some hope that they might finally be put out to pasture. 
 

Seriousky - the Flyers have more “advisors” and “ambassadors” that are in their 70s-80s than probably any other franchise. They wheel out Bernie Parent’s corpse at every opportunity, or other old drunk guys. You’d think they had no stars since 1983 despite having several HOFers that the old guard has basically never allowed in “the club”. 
 

/FlyersJack

[goalieboy82]

17 hours ago, Sec19Row53 said:

They're two cities?

 

[spartacat_12]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:05 PM, Digby said:

I personally cannot fathom very many cities than can support more than one 18k arena. Feels like NYC and LA and that’s it. That’s always been the flashing warning light about this Sixers idea to me. How do the Twin Cities pull it off?

 

This seems to be the root cause of all the latest Coyotes arena drama. Phoenix is worried that a brand new pro arena in Tempe take away key events from the Footprint Center, so they've come up with as much red tape as possible to prevent that from happening.

[BBTV]

On 4/8/2023 at 7:05 PM, Digby said:

I personally cannot fathom very many cities than can support more than one 18k arena. Feels like NYC and LA and that’s it. That’s always been the flashing warning light about this Sixers idea to me. How do the Twin Cities pull it off?

I think a metro of 6M can support 2 arenas. Unless tour promoters have exclusive deals with one or the other, it allows for more flexibility as far as multi-date stops go since they wouldn’t have to be booked around Sixers and Flyers games. It wouldn’t surprise me if some tours hit DC then to go NY and skip  PHL (unless it’s summer and the major outdoor venues are in play.). This used to happen with indie shows when a bunch of great venues closed all around the same time, but no longer does since a whole slew of newer ones have come along. 

 

Also enables more minor league teams. The Phantoms were by all accounts a success when they played in the Spectrum, then ended up being exiled. 
 

If anything, I would expect suburban people to reject going to the Sixers arena at first until they’re forced to, then realize it’s not that bad, and eventually prefer it - then WF would actually be #2. 
 

I work 25 miles outside the city and always resisted moving into the “grid” because of trains etc, but once I realized how much more convenient it was, I ended up moving despite my commute now being either a multi-subway>train>bus ride or a 90 min car ride (puke emoji). I expect many will learn the same. Or not. Culture takes a while to change. 

[Digby]

23 minutes ago, BBTV said:

I think a metro of 6M can support 2 arenas. Unless tour promoters have exclusive deals with one or the other, it allows for more flexibility as far as multi-date stops go since they wouldn’t have to be booked around Sixers and Flyers games. It wouldn’t surprise me if some tours hit DC then to go NY and skip  PHL (unless it’s summer and the major outdoor venues are in play.). This used to happen with indie shows when a bunch of great venues closed all around the same time, but no longer does since a whole slew of newer ones have come along. 

 

 

I've always assumed that kinda is the case, with tour promoters and exclusivity deals -- isn't that part of the current consternation over Live Nation? But I don't know a ton about the live music industry and maybe Live Nation just winds up running them both or something. It's a good point that the most likely outcome would probably end up being the Sixers arena getting more of the other events, being a newer venue and centrally located. (Though I've thought the Sportsplex setup isn't THAT bad, at least it's still on a subway line, but hard to beat being on all the subway lines and the commuter rail too.)

 

I'm no urban planner but a nice thing about the Boston Garden redeveloping the old Garden's footprint a couple years ago is that you've got street-level retail and restaurants on that strip 365 days a year, and on nights where nothing's going on in the arena, you don't even really notice it because doesn't take up any street frontage of note. But that's also rare because it feels like the market-to-arena size ratio is perfect for a steady diet of NBA, NHL, concerts and the occasional Disney on Ice long residency.

[BBTV]

 

And now, one mayoral candidate got busted for receiving money from a PAC that got $250K from the Sixers directly, and another $150K from "an entity owned by the team".  In interviews, he's the only mayoral candidate that's said he absolutely supports the arena plan.  The others have been either non-committal or "no".

 

Sorry - I know this is about the Sixers and not the NHL, but it's kindasorta related to how the NHL's Flyers are trying to cling on to the Sixers by any means necessary so that this arena doesn't happen and they get buried further down - something that even 5 years ago was completely unimanigable.

[spartacat_12]

Jets have launched a new season ticket campaign, and the new site includes ends with the quote, "Our commitment to keeping the Jets in Winnipeg, forever, has never been stronger. But it takes all of us. Together."

 

Nothing like the thinly veiled threat of another relocation out of Winnipeg to get fans fired up to buy season tickets.

[monkeypower]

Has Winnipeg been having issues? I haven't been paying attention or hearing anything.