NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Webhamster]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:03 PM, ManillaToad said:

Speaking of Senators, the NHL Senators should officially be given the records of the original Ottawa Senators

 

I have a very vivid memory from the Senators' very first game in 1992 where John Ziegler presented Bruce Firestone with a letter at centre ice proclaiming that the Senators were NOT an expansion team, but a reactivation of a dormant franchise.  This allowed them to claim the history of the previous franchise which is why the banners for the prior cups were raised that night and are in the CTC to this day.  I know I had it on videotape at one point but's long gone now.

 

[schlim]

2 hours ago, Webhamster said:

I know I had it on videotape at one point but's long gone now.

The CCSLC now has a previously unknown Zapruder film laying out there, in a dusty shoebox in a garage somewhere near Ottawa!

[spartacat_12]

19 hours ago, Webhamster said:

I have a very vivid memory from the Senators' very first game in 1992 where John Ziegler presented Bruce Firestone with a letter at centre ice proclaiming that the Senators were NOT an expansion team, but a reactivation of a dormant franchise.  This allowed them to claim the history of the previous franchise which is why the banners for the prior cups were raised that night and are in the CTC to this day.  I know I had it on videotape at one point but's long gone now.

 

All of that was just ceremonial. The league doesn't consider them a reactivated franchise. It's no different than the Kraken having a Metropolitans Cup banner in their arena.

 

https://records.nhl.com/records/playoff-team-records/stanley-cups/most-cup-wins-playoff

[ManillaToad]

33 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

All of that was just ceremonial. The league doesn't consider them a reactivated franchise. It's no different than the Kraken having a Metropolitans Cup banner in their arena.

 

https://records.nhl.com/records/playoff-team-records/stanley-cups/most-cup-wins-playoff

 

Obviously, but the point is that the team and the fans view it as a continuation, and they want it to be official. Just like the Winnipeg situation.

[spartacat_12]

1 hour ago, ManillaToad said:

Obviously, but the point is that the team and the fans view it as a continuation, and they want it to be official. Just like the Winnipeg situation.

 

Meh, it seems like a point of contention among the fanbase. While I'm a huge hockey nerd who loved learning about the history of those old teams, it would feel very disingenuous to claim the current Sens have won those Cups. 

 

It's really not the same as the Winnipeg situation. There's plenty of people there who grew up watching the original Jets, so they have memories of guys like Hawerchuk and Selanne. Ottawa went 60 years between franchises, so no one actually has any memories of those Cups or the players from that era.

 

I like having Finnigan's number retired and the Cups acknowledged in the building (although I'd prefer they consolidate them all onto one banner), but I'm not going to pretend that the Sens have the same number of Cups as the Red Wings.

[ManillaToad]

I suppose I just don't see why you think that current fans' nostalgia should be the deciding factor in altering the record books. There were plenty of Ottawa fans in the 90s who witnessed the original team. That's the entire reason the nuSens claimed to be a continuation. Both of these 2.0 teams were created under the same nostalgic pretenses. I think they should be treated the same.

[Sec19Row53]

47 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

I suppose I just don't see why you think that current fans' nostalgia should be the deciding factor in altering the record books. There were plenty of Ottawa fans in the 90s who witnessed the original team. That's the entire reason the nuSens claimed to be a continuation. Both of these 2.0 teams were created under the same nostalgic pretenses. I think they should be treated the same.

"They want it to be official"
"I want to be a millionaire"

Tough.

[spartacat_12]

58 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

I suppose I just don't see why you think that current fans' nostalgia should be the deciding factor in altering the record books. There were plenty of Ottawa fans in the 90s who witnessed the original team. That's the entire reason the nuSens claimed to be a continuation. Both of these 2.0 teams were created under the same nostalgic pretenses. I think they should be treated the same.

 

The original Sens moved to St. Louis in 1934 and the new franchise played their first game in 1992. The only people who would've remembered the old teams were septuagenarians then. The city had multiple generations of people who grew up cheering for other teams.

 

I agree that both teams should be treated the same. I don't think the new Jets should share the records with the old Jets either. 

[ManillaToad]

Fair enough

[The_Admiral]

On 8/1/2024 at 1:09 PM, Webhamster said:

I have a very vivid memory from the Senators' very first game in 1992 where John Ziegler presented Bruce Firestone with a letter at centre ice proclaiming that the Senators were NOT an expansion team, but a reactivation of a dormant franchise.  This allowed them to claim the history of the previous franchise which is why the banners for the prior cups were raised that night and are in the CTC to this day.  I know I had it on videotape at one point but's long gone now.

 

7 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

All of that was just ceremonial.

 

I mean, yes, in the sense that it was part of a ceremony, but if the president of the league announced that the Senators are a reactivation, doesn't that have to count for something? Or is this, apropos to Utah joining the league, a President of the Mormon Church thing where you revisit stuff your predecessor said that you didn't like and say "he was just kinda talkin', didn't really count"?

[BBTV]

If the Philles were to move, they'd obviously have to change their name.  The Nashville Nashies aren't the Phillies, and are a new team.  New name = new team. I don't give a F about lineage and the sort.  If/when the Phillies are reborn, as long as they're the Phillies and not something dumb like the Franklins, then they're the Phillies.  Nobody - AND THE VET MEANS Nobody - would draw the distinction.  Now if they did come back as the Franklins, then it's a new team.

 

This isn't real.  This isn't serious.  It's just not.  Maybe it was back in the 30s-50s, but I think we're all in on the hustle that pro sports is - it's basically pro wrestling but real.  Kane is not Isaac Yankem, despite them both being that moron Glenn Jacobs.  Lord Tensai was not Prince Albert.  Pro sports is basically the same.

 

Like anything, it's not one-size-fits-all - but "one size fits most."

[spartacat_12]

On 8/2/2024 at 5:06 PM, The_Admiral said:

I mean, yes, in the sense that it was part of a ceremony, but if the president of the league announced that the Senators are a reactivation, doesn't that have to count for something? Or is this, apropos to Utah joining the league, a President of the Mormon Church thing where you revisit stuff your predecessor said that you didn't like and say "he was just kinda talkin', didn't really count"?

 

If the league really considered it a continuation that would be reflected in the record books. It was  just a fun way to welcome back the city to the NHL. The Washington Nationals inaugural season patch said, "Established 1905" despite the fact that their official history only goes back to the Expos being established.

 

On 8/2/2024 at 8:33 PM, BBTV said:

If the Philles were to move, they'd obviously have to change their name.  The Nashville Nashies aren't the Phillies, and are a new team.  New name = new team. I don't give a F about lineage and the sort.  If/when the Phillies are reborn, as long as they're the Phillies and not something dumb like the Franklins, then they're the Phillies.  Nobody - AND THE VET MEANS Nobody - would draw the distinction.  Now if they did come back as the Franklins, then it's a new team.

 

This isn't real.  This isn't serious.  It's just not.  Maybe it was back in the 30s-50s, but I think we're all in on the hustle that pro sports is - it's basically pro wrestling but real.  Kane is not Isaac Yankem, despite them both being that moron Glenn Jacobs.  Lord Tensai was not Prince Albert.  Pro sports is basically the same.

 

Like anything, it's not one-size-fits-all - but "one size fits most."

 

So if an owner is too lazy to change the name upon relocation they get to keep whatever history comes with it? Did Joe Sakic not spend his entire career with one franchise because they happened to change their name when they moved?

[BBTV]

5 hours ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

So if an owner is too lazy to change the name upon relocation they get to keep whatever history comes with it? Did Joe Sakic not spend his entire career with one franchise because they happened to change their name when they moved?

 

Does anyone in Denver care about what Joe Sakic did in Quebec City?  Could most people in Denver point out where QC is on an unlabeled map?

 

He didn't score 625 goals for the Colorado Avalanche.  That's an indisputable fact.  He may have scored 625 for the legal entity that relocated and changed its name, but honestly, do more than a tiny number of people care about that?

 

For people who care about legal lineages, then they can still do that math and celebrate it.  but I'd wager that most people don't celebrate what they never saw and in many cases weren't even aware of (a relocation to a vacant market is different than a trade.)

 

 

From StatMuse:
Joe Sakic played 20 seasons for the Avalanche. He had 625 goals, 1,016 assists and a plus-minus of +30 in 1,378 games. He won 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Lady Byng Trophy, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy and 2 Stanley Cups. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2012.

 

This is patently false.

[The_Admiral]

2 minutes ago, BBTV said:

Could most people in Denver point out where QC is on an unlabeled map?

 

I truly believe that the reason the Blackhawks-Canucks rivalry stayed at like an 8/10 in intensity instead of the 11/10 it deserved was because too many people from Chicago couldn't point to Vancouver on a map. What even is a Vancouver?

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

For people who care about legal lineages the objective facts of history, then they can still do that math and celebrate it.  but I'd wager that most people don't celebrate what they never saw and in many cases weren't even aware of

 

Fixed your post.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

I'd wager that most people don't celebrate what they never saw

 

 

The Warren Spahn statue outside the stadium of the Braves, the team for which Spahn starred.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

From StatMuse:
Joe Sakic played 20 seasons for the Avalanche. He had 625 goals, 1,016 assists and a plus-minus of +30 in 1,378 games. He won 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Lady Byng Trophy, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy and 2 Stanley Cups. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2012.

 

This is patently false.

 

On the contrary; it is absolutely true.

 

I play the Immaculate Grid baseball game every day.  When the question will be a pitching accomplishment crossed with the Minnesota Twins, the game accepts Walter Johnson as the answer, and rightfully so, as the Twins are Johnson's relocated Senators.  I have no doubt that the hockey version of the Grid also goes by franchise lineages, because that's a game for people who understand and respect history.

 

Acknowledging franchise continuity is a matter of intellectual honesty; it is a moral imperative.  Principled people do not play "let's pretend" with the facts of history, as the NFL did with its execrable Cleveland deal that floats the fantasy that the Browns didn't move to Baltimore.

 

 

[spartacat_12]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

From StatMuse:
Joe Sakic played 20 seasons for the Avalanche. He had 625 goals, 1,016 assists and a plus-minus of +30 in 1,378 games. He won 1 Hart Trophy, 1 Lady Byng Trophy, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy and 2 Stanley Cups. He was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2012.

 

This is patently false.

 

Funny what happened when I clicked the link you embedded in "Avalanche". It lists the seasons they played in Quebec under Colorado Avalanche Team history.

 

"Joe Sakic played 20 seasons for Nordiques/Avalanche franchise..." There you go. It is now a correct statement.

[SFGiants58]

2 hours ago, The_Admiral said:

 

I truly believe that the reason the Blackhawks-Canucks rivalry stayed at like an 8/10 in intensity instead of the 11/10 it deserved was because too many people from Chicago couldn't point to Vancouver on a map. What even is a Vancouver?

 

The place that gave us the NYC mountains from Rumble in the Bronx?

 

 

[BBTV]

2 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

The Warren Spahn statue outside the stadium of the Braves, the team for which Spahn starred.

 

Having a statue doesn't mean anyone cares.  I'm sure there's 80-year olds in Milwaukee that remember him pitching, but he never played for the Atlanta Braves.  That is a fact.  He was never introduced as an active player with the Atlanta Braves, never suited up for a regular-season game for the Atlanta Braves.

 

If I was a Braves fan at the time that they moved there, I wouldn't have given a damn about Warren Spahn, because while he's a HOFer, all he would have been to me was an entry in a box score or in a record book.  I wouldn't have been a Milwaukee Braves fan that magically knew that some day they'd play in Atlanta.  I would have grown up without a Major League team, and may have followed the Yankees or whatever team was available on broadcast at the time.

 

Sports history can be both "sports history" and  "history history".  Sports are simply not important, and it can be had both ways.  The serious people can trace the lineage back, but the fans that just care about THEIR team can pretend that the Charlotte Hornets are the Charlotte Hornets, even if they're technically not.

 

IDGAF about Dolph Shayes, and he's a HOFer.  I'm fortunate enough to have never lived through a situation where I inherited a team, but nothing that anyone does in a uniform that's not "mine" matters to me.  We root for laundry, and the emotional investment we make in said laundry trumps (sigh) words on paper.

 

1 hour ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

Funny what happened when I clicked the link you embedded in "Avalanche". It lists the seasons they played in Quebec under Colorado Avalanche Team history.

 

"Joe Sakic played 20 seasons for Nordiques/Avalanche franchise..." There you go. It is now a correct statement.

 

ha, I didn't even know there was a link there.

 

True - he played for the Nordiques/Avalance franchise.  False - he played his whole career with the Colorado Avalanche. 

 

If the Phillies moved (and at this point they really should) and the Rays moved here after their new stadium is proven to be the same failure as their current one, and they adopted the name Phillies with similar uniforms, then guess what - I'm considering them the successor of the Phillies, and Mike Schmidt is their home run leader..  It's not up to anyone to tell me I'm wrong - how I treat the team is my choice - and I would wager I'm not alone in how I would treat it.

[chcarlson23]

5 hours ago, BBTV said:

We root for laundry, and the emotional investment we make in said laundry trumps (sigh) words on paper.

Not just laundry, but usually location too. Which is why no one from Atlanta would really care about the Milwaukee era of the Braves history, because they have civic pride in where they’re from, not somewhere across the country. 
 

It’s the same reason I can’t stand the Stars. They’re the DALLAS Stars, a city and location that I don’t really have an interest in, and have never been to. But I’ve been in Minnesota my whole life, so of course I’d root for the Wild, but I also have memories of my Dad and Grandfather talking about watching players like Neal Broten and Bill Goldsworthy. 
 

Obviously there are exceptions, but those are usually more about family relations and connections more often then not. 
 

That’s what makes relocations so tough, because it’s a city’s civic pride, that now is getting forced onto another city. Sometimes there probably wasn’t enough passion that it mattered, but there are certainly examples where it does, like the Browns and North Stars. It would be like if the Gateway Arch got moved to Florida, or the Sears Tower to Omaha. Or if the Statue of Liberty was plopped down in New Jersey San Diego. I bet the people in the new location would love it, but it’s gotta feel weird for the other city, since it’s come to represent and mean so much to the city. 
 

Obviously at the end of the day sports really don’t matter, and it makes sense to have some Cleveland Deals so that fans can “keep” their team, but you can also recognize and understand that the actual history was the team moved, and a new expansion team filled the gap. 
 

Like you said BBTV, both can be true. 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

1 hour ago, chcarlson23 said:

no one from Atlanta would really care about the Milwaukee era of the Braves history

 

The Dodgers' Roy Campanella Night in Los Angeles was attended by 90,000 fans.

 

In the 1972 World Series, the A's had Lefty Grove throw out the first ball. 

 

The Nationals honoured Gary Carter and Andre Dawson, and have worn Expos throwbacks at home.

 

The A's have worn both Philadelphia and Kansas City throwbacks at home.

 

The Lakers have worn Minneapolis throwbacks at home; the Clippers have worn Buffalo Braves uniforms at home; the Carolina Hurricanes have worn Hartford Whalers uniforms at home.

 

So, no.

 

Franchise continuity is of the utmost importance. History is precious.