AHL/ECHL/Minor/Junior League Hockey Changes

[Shumway]

2 minutes ago, Discrim said:

You know what must now be done...the Admirals must dust off the skating fridge sweaters in retaliation

Genuinely one of my favorite hockey logos of all-time. I bought a hat and a shirt of it and wish I could've got a jersey.

[ruttep]

 

The Hartford Wolf Pack just released a throwback jersey, although they did so in a horrible reveal video where you don't really get to see the jersey until about the 2:40 mark.

[ORLMagic86]

On 1/29/2024 at 6:36 PM, ruttep said:

 

The Hartford Wolf Pack just released a throwback jersey, although they did so in a horrible reveal video where you don't really get to see the jersey until about the 2:40 mark.

I enjoyed the small nod to Torpedo, the Wolf Pack's second mascot from the 2000s. He looked like a scarier version of Sonar. Before joining the Wolf Pack, I believe he was the New England Sea Wolves' mascot. This makes sense given that both teams were owned by MSG at the time.

[officeglenn]

 

[spudrik79]

 

[A_J_H]

On 1/27/2024 at 1:23 PM, tigerslionspistonshabs said:

 

Not long. I see you're in Chatham. I'd put money on that being their next landing spot. I know there are arena issues, but I'm surprised they don't have a team already. 

 

That, or another American market. Possibly Battle Creek, Lansing or give Detroit metro another shot.

 

As much it would shock the hey out of me to see the OHL in Chatham, but having an OHL team in my town is like Hamilton getting an NHL team; it's a pipedream and knowing the OHL, they'll more likely go for another American team, if there any chance that my town is on the list of future location my town is on the bottom of the list. I know it sounds harsh, but the facts are real. It'll take a big shot with lots of money to build a new arena in my town to ever catch the eye of any junior A leagues to consider the place to run a team there.

[zubazpirate]

11 hours ago, A_J_H said:

I know it sounds harsh, but the facts are real. It'll take a big shot with lots of money to build a new arena in my town to ever catch the eye of any junior A leagues to consider the place to run a team there.

 

It feels like the CHL - the OHL and WHL in particular - has more or less reached its limits in Canada. The cost of entering is so steep, you basically need a 1/3 scale NHL arena at 1/3 the cost of a NHL building, and not many small towns with big dreams can pull that off. You could bake sale your way into the kind of Centennial Arena barns that our grandfathers played in, but you can't build a 6,000 seat palace with luxury amenities that way.

 

I get the impression that the US has an exponentially higher number of people who can easily write seven or eight figure cheques to get the ball rolling on big arena projects. At least that's my impression from the local arenas I've been to in the US. So it's not shocking at all that the OHL and WHL are looking south of the border for growth.

 

Maybe this BCHL-style elevated junior A type of league is where the growth opportunities are for junior hockey in Canada.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

Also depending on how the Hamilton/Brantford situation shakes out, I could see whichever city doesn't end up with a team getting one. i.e. if the Bulldogs go back to Hamilton, Brantford gets a team. If they decide to stay, Hamilton gets a team. The Bulldogs are selling out (I know it's a small arena). If the novelty doesn't wear out, it could be a full time city.

 

Thunder Bay would be cool, but waaaay too far away considering teams don't fly.

 

I do believe that the GTA could still house a team, but they don't work in places like Mississauga or Brampton. Perhaps in the North York region.  It's a hockey crazed city and the Leafs are extremely over priced, if you can even get a seat.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

Double post my bad.

[monkeypower]

1 hour ago, zubazpirate said:

It feels like the CHL - the OHL and WHL in particular - has more or less reached its limits in Canada. The cost of entering is so steep, you basically need a 1/3 scale NHL arena at 1/3 the cost of a NHL building, and not many small towns with big dreams can pull that off. You could bake sale your way into the kind of Centennial Arena barns that our grandfathers played in, but you can't build a 6,000 seat palace with luxury amenities that way.

 

I get the impression that the US has an exponentially higher number of people who can easily write seven or eight figure cheques to get the ball rolling on big arena projects. At least that's my impression from the local arenas I've been to in the US. So it's not shocking at all that the OHL and WHL are looking south of the border for growth.

 

I can't speak to the OHL, but I would agree the WHL has kind of hit its limit in Canada. There's just not many places left that are a) big enough, b) have an existing arena that's already good enough or means to build new/improve old and/or c) have an existing franchise and location with the capability or interest of moving up a level. There has been talk over the years about one more BC team being a possibility (Chilliwack coming back or Nanaimo moving up, usually)  but there's never been anything of actual substance. 

 

I don't know if the WHL has any true ambitions of expansion though. If somebody wants to cut a check, I'm sure they'll take a look at it, but I don't think the WHL is actively searching or soliciting in either country. The relocation of Winnipeg to Wenatchee was more about the WHL being done with Winnipeg's ownership group and the BCHL Wenatchee franchise fitting the a), b) and c) criteria I set up above.

 

1 hour ago, zubazpirate said:

Maybe this BCHL-style elevated junior A type of league is where the growth opportunities are for junior hockey in Canada.

 

I personally think it may be the case where there are already too many existing sub-major junior teams and I could see more folding than expansion in junior A upcoming. It's also getting to the point where there might not be many possible markets left for that level as well.

 

There is also a lot of dust to be settled within the coming years in junior hockey.

• The BCHL left Hockey Canada (to mixed results despite what their propaganda machine has been putting out and, despite what some people on social media have latched on to, their move didn't have anything to do with the various Hockey Canada scandals over recent years)
• Following that, BC Hockey promoted three existing Jr. B leagues to "Jr. A" for a trial period with the goal of creating a new Jr. A league of the most successful teams 
• The five biggest (richest) Alberta teams have just left mid-season for the BCHL, now leaving the AJ in a bit of a flux
• Some existing BCHL teams are discussing moving back to Hockey Canada and into one of the promoted Jr. B leagues
• Some, don't know how legitimate, discussion that the AJ, the Sask, and the Manitoba leagues will cull lesser teams and create a prairie spanning league of the remaining (don't know if travel costs would allow that though)
• There is more recent smoke that the NCAA will start allowing (or more like realize they won't be able to block it from happening if it goes to court) CHL players to play college hockey and there have been a couple insiders and forum posts saying it's seemingly becoming more "when" than "if". If that does happen, it could throttle Jr. A because those players who do want to go NCAA can now play at the higher level of junior hockey in the CHL, relegating Jr. A to even more of a lesser league

 

There's a lot of question marks right now in Jr. A hockey about what the landscape will look like and I personally don't think trying to start a junior hockey team is a good business decision right now. I know if I had the money, I wouldn't.

[spartacat_12]

3 hours ago, tigerslionspistonshabs said:

I do believe that the GTA could still house a team, but they don't work in places like Mississauga or Brampton. Perhaps in the North York region.  It's a hockey crazed city and the Leafs are extremely over priced, if you can even get a seat.

 

The problem with Toronto and the GTA is that it's a major league city. Most people here think they're above lower level leagues because we've got the NHL, NBA, MLB, and (to a lesser extent) MLS. It's the reason why the CFL struggles, but an NFL team would have no problem selling out. Even the Marlies can't manage to sell out an 8000 seat rink, and those tickets are very affordable.

[AFirestormToPurify]

Is it me or AHL teams have stopped doing the half-and-half thing where they switch the color of the home uniform midseason and instead have just switched to white at home permanently?

[The_Admiral]

On 2/5/2024 at 9:05 AM, zubazpirate said:

It feels like the CHL - the OHL and WHL in particular - has more or less reached its limits in Canada. The cost of entering is so steep, you basically need a 1/3 scale NHL arena at 1/3 the cost of a NHL building, and not many small towns with big dreams can pull that off. You could bake sale your way into the kind of Centennial Arena barns that our grandfathers played in, but you can't build a 6,000 seat palace with luxury amenities that way.

 

I feel like the OHL more than the WHL elevated major-junior arenas to an unsustainable level. There are lots of mini-palaces in Southern Ontario, none more so than London, but the WHL is a bit more catch-as-catch-can as far as I can tell with NHL arenas on off nights or weird old barns in small towns called Elk Crap. Do they still have the reverse can? 

[monkeypower]

1 hour ago, The_Admiral said:

I feel like the OHL more than the WHL elevated major-junior arenas to an unsustainable level. There are lots of mini-palaces in Southern Ontario, none more so than London, but the WHL is a bit more catch-as-catch-can as far as I can tell with NHL arenas on off nights or weird old barns in small towns called Elk Crap. Do they still have the reverse can? 

 

Nah, Moose Jaw built a new arena for 2011 and the crushed, not reversed, can was demoed in 2012.

 

In terms of weird old barns in small towns, there's really only Swift Current, Prince Albert and maybe Brandon. On the whole, I don't think there's too much of a difference the WHL and OHL arenas besides maybe the very bottom and very top (as far as I can tell from pictures, I've never been to an OHL arena and have only been to one non-NHL WHL arena and that was an old barn that was left in 2014). 

 

With the WHL as well, there hasn't been all that much team movement so there's already been less of a need for more arenas. Since 1990, there have been six expansion teams and six relocations, with two of those relocations being from the pool of expansion teams and one of those expansion franchises being half of the relocations. Most teams have been in the same arena for decades that started as the Centennial Arena barns with renos done throughout the years to make it more updated. There isn't just much of an appetite or financial ability for new arenas to be built in most of these metros.

[zubazpirate]

23 hours ago, monkeypower said:

 

Nah, Moose Jaw built a new arena for 2011 and the crushed, not reversed, can was demoed in 2012.

 

In terms of weird old barns in small towns, there's really only Swift Current, Prince Albert and maybe Brandon. On the whole, I don't think there's too much of a difference the WHL and OHL arenas besides maybe the very bottom and very top (as far as I can tell from pictures, I've never been to an OHL arena and have only been to one non-NHL WHL arena and that was an old barn that was left in 2014). 

 

With the WHL as well, there hasn't been all that much team movement so there's already been less of a need for more arenas. Since 1990, there have been six expansion teams and six relocations, with two of those relocations being from the pool of expansion teams and one of those expansion franchises being half of the relocations. Most teams have been in the same arena for decades that started as the Centennial Arena barns with renos done throughout the years to make it more updated. There isn't just much of an appetite or financial ability for new arenas to be built in most of these metros.

 

In some ways junior hockey is boxing itself in - at least, in Canada - with its insistence on relatively large venues the same way that the CFL did in the 70s and 80s when NFL-calibre (for the time) stadiums briefly became the norm, and to this day the expectation is that a new CFL team will have a 25,000+ seat pro stadium from day one, when the league's economics don't make a strong case for that. That's why the CFL hasn't added a new Canadian market since 1954. And so it is with major junior hockey where the expectation is now a minimum 5,000 seat building with all the pro-style bells and whistles. That's really tough for a smaller locale to pull off, or even for a bigger locale in cases where the junior team is playing a secondary or tertiary role (as we saw with Winnipeg). Moose Jaw's rink is almost comically large given the town's size, and it cost them a fortune. I'm sure it would cost substantially more to build today. There are few if any places left in Western Canada that can pull this off, which is why the WHL's centre of gravity is shifting to the US. Far more larger towns that are willing and able to get those big arenas built. 

 

Brandon is an interesting case, the Keystone Centre is pushing 60 years old and although it has been upgraded, it's not hard to see the day coming when they will have to build a new rink. It will be a struggle to get it done, as a new WHL arena built according to the league's wishlist is likely a $100 million plus project nowadays. 

[monkeypower]

49 minutes ago, zubazpirate said:

In some ways junior hockey is boxing itself in - at least, in Canada - with its insistence on relatively large venues the same way that the CFL did in the 70s and 80s when NFL-calibre (for the time) stadiums briefly became the norm, and to this day the expectation is that a new CFL team will have a 25,000+ seat pro stadium from day one, when the league's economics don't make a strong case for that. That's why the CFL hasn't added a new Canadian market since 1954.

 

I think it's less stadium expectations for adding a new CFL market, it's a lack of population and corporate money in markets that don't already have a CFL team. There's only like two potential realistic CFL expansion markets in a Maritime team and Quebec City and both those have issues preventing anything concrete. But that's not for this thread.

 

49 minutes ago, zubazpirate said:

And so it is with major junior hockey where the expectation is now a minimum 5,000 seat building with all the pro-style bells and whistles. That's really tough for a smaller locale to pull off, or even for a bigger locale in cases where the junior team is playing a secondary or tertiary role (as we saw with Winnipeg). Moose Jaw's rink is almost comically large given the town's size, and it cost them a fortune. I'm sure it would cost substantially more to build today. There are few if any places left in Western Canada that can pull this off, which is why the WHL's centre of gravity is shifting to the US. Far more larger towns that are willing and able to get those big arenas built.

 

I don't know where you are getting that the "WHL's centre of gravity is shifting to the US". Of the six American teams, two started in the 70s, two started in the 80s, one started in 2003 and the most recent just started this year because they were a quick relocation fix to the Winnipeg problem. Three of the last four expansions have been Canadian markets and the most recent relocations prior to Winnipeg to Wenatchee were from Canadian market to Canadian market, including previous Wenatchee franchise moves.

 

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, I haven't seen or heard any indication from the WHL that they are interested in expansion. Like with the CFL, all the realistic Canadian markets are full and, not that I know all that much about the PNW, can't think of any other markets in America that would realistically work either.

 

49 minutes ago, zubazpirate said:

Brandon is an interesting case, the Keystone Centre is pushing 60 years old and although it has been upgraded, it's not hard to see the day coming when they will have to build a new rink. It will be a struggle to get it done, as a new WHL arena built according to the league's wishlist is likely a $100 million plus project nowadays. 

 

If the WHL doesn't say anything about Swift Current, I think Brandon will be fine. I also don't know how strict the WHL would be on the arena standards for existing markets and Swift Current will be the bellweather on that.

 

Is there even a league arena wishlist with as you say, a minimum 5,000 seat building with all the pro-style bells and whistles?

[JohnnyCowboy5]

8 hours ago, monkeypower said:

 

I think it's less stadium expectations for adding a new CFL market, it's a lack of population and corporate money in markets that don't already have a CFL team. There's only like two potential realistic CFL expansion markets in a Maritime team and Quebec City and both those have issues preventing anything concrete. But that's not for this thread.

 

 

I don't know where you are getting that the "WHL's centre of gravity is shifting to the US". Of the six American teams, two started in the 70s, two started in the 80s, one started in 2003 and the most recent just started this year because they were a quick relocation fix to the Winnipeg problem. Three of the last four expansions have been Canadian markets and the most recent relocations prior to Winnipeg to Wenatchee were from Canadian market to Canadian market, including previous Wenatchee franchise moves.

 

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, I haven't seen or heard any indication from the WHL that they are interested in expansion. Like with the CFL, all the realistic Canadian markets are full and, not that I know all that much about the PNW, can't think of any other markets in America that would realistically work either.

 

 

If the WHL doesn't say anything about Swift Current, I think Brandon will be fine. I also don't know how strict the WHL would be on the arena standards for existing markets and Swift Current will be the bellweather on that.

 

Is there even a league arena wishlist with as you say, a minimum 5,000 seat building with all the pro-style bells and whistles?

No there no limit on how much seats can have. If you look at the QMJHL  they have rink with like 3000 range   lowest at  2,150 top at 18,259

[zubazpirate]

20 hours ago, monkeypower said:

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, I haven't seen or heard any indication from the WHL that they are interested in expansion. Like with the CFL, all the realistic Canadian markets are full and, not that I know all that much about the PNW, can't think of any other markets in America that would realistically work either.

 

 

Well yes, that was my point, there aren't really any potential WHL expansion sites in Canada because of the enormous capital costs associated with a team. Nanaimo and Winnipeg are two places that could easily a support a team on an operating basis, but once you factor in the $80 million-$120 million arena that each team would need, then the math falls apart. Places like Grande Prairie and Lloydminster could support WHL teams too if they could use the type of arena that was standard in WHL back in the 1980s, but they can't realistically pull off getting a large 5,000 seat venue built. BC is a bit of a different situation altogether because so many of the non-WHL markets are locked up by the BCHL. 

 

 

[monkeypower]

2 hours ago, zubazpirate said:

Well yes, that was my point, there aren't really any potential WHL expansion sites in Canada because of the enormous capital costs associated with a team.

 

I know and we are essentially saying the same thing. 

 

What am I trying to say in regards to your point is that it reads like you are saying it's a problem that the WHL has grown and as a result is now closing off potential markets because of that. I'm saying is that I don't see a problem because the WHL doesn't appear to be looking to expand, especially to a smaller market, and any unfilled WHL market either can't make it work due to costs/population or has a Jr. A franchise (or both in a lot of cases). 

 

So if the WHL isn't looking to expand and none of "open" markets can or are willing to meet WHL arena or population standards, I don't see a problem, it's just how it is.

 

2 hours ago, zubazpirate said:

Nanaimo and Winnipeg are two places that could easily a support a team on an operating basis, but once you factor in the $80 million-$120 million arena that each team would need, then the math falls apart.

 

Nanaimo has been discussed many times in the past about doing what eventually happened in Wenatchee and essentially promoting the existing Jr. A franchise. However, there hasn't been anything actual and I think the moment has passed.

 

Winnipeg is in a special situation and if you are basing your whole viewpoint on what happened to the Ice, it's not a situation that can really be applied to other markets because I don't know if the WHL really wanted that team out there and they clearly didn't hesitate to abandon the market. Wenatchee didn't have to build a new arena to get the team, they're still in the same arena they were in for the BCHL.

 

2 hours ago, zubazpirate said:

Grande Prairie and Lloydminster could support WHL teams too if they could use the type of arena that was standard in WHL back in the 1980s, but they can't realistically pull off getting a large 5,000 seat venue built. BC is a bit of a different situation altogether because so many of the non-WHL markets are locked up by the BCHL.

 

The WHL isn't using the arena standards they had in the 80s, so GP and Lloyd can't support WHL teams. Like I said above, I don't think that's a problem. GP and Lloyd have also been in the Jr. A circuit for decades and have evolved as such with the other Alberta non-WHL markets who have Jr. A teams as well.

[monkeypower]

The Charlotte Checkers did a Florida Panthers night, because that's the current affiliation, on Saturday and instead of having a themed Checkers jersey, they just dressed up as the Panthers.

 

This feels weird and almost patronizing to me.