MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[BBTV]

Baseball would fail so miserably in Las Vegas, just like it would in pretty much all other places that don't already have a team, and just like it is in some places that already do have a team*.

 

Getting fans to come to 81 games is a tough task, even for many good teams - let alone a team that could be awful.  People that are in Vegas from out of town might go to a Raiders game, but aren't going to sit through a slow-paced game in a mostly empty / lifeless stadium to see their baseball team.  Maybe one time, but if you have limited time in LV, it's kind of a waste to see baseball.

 

Baseball is by far the hardest sport to start up in a new city.  The stadium requirements are large and expensive, and you need to find some way to attract people to 81 games.  The best case scenario for the LV A's is a Marlins situation, where they simply "exist".

 

* I'm judging "success" by attendance, atmosphere, and performance.  I know that all teams actually make money - even teams like Marlins and Pirates - but I can't consider them successful by any measure that a fan would care about.

[GDAWG]

The end game for Las Vegas as a sports city is to get a team in all five Major League Sports (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL and MLS).  They have two, and they might get the A's.  The feeling is that whenever the NBA expands again (and that won't happen until a new CBA and a new broadcast deal happens), the two cities that will be 31 and 32 are Seattle and Las  Vegas.  And Las Vegas had expressed interest in MLS, but now that Golden Knights Owner Bill Foley is out (he said after buying Bournemouth of the English Premier League that an MLS team in Vegas was too expensive for him), so they might be out for the last three spots in MLS (assuming they go 32).

 

I don't want to see Las Vegas in MLS.  If I had it my way, the last three MLS teams (30, 31 and 32) would be San Diego, Louisville and Phoenix.  MLS is Louisville's only chance at a major league team, since the NBA is likely going to Seattle and Las Vegas (unless the NBA saves Las Vegas for relocation).

[The_Admiral]

Denver is a five-team market of roughly equivalent size and all non-Broncos teams have gone through stretches of bomb-scare attendance at their games. Las Vegas will be different why.

[FiddySicks]

20 hours ago, the admiral said:

Denver is a five-team market of roughly equivalent size and all non-Broncos teams have gone through stretches of bomb-scare attendance at their games. Las Vegas will be different why.

Denver actually has water. Also, Denver metro still has nearly a million people more than Vegas. 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

I feel like baseball is most attractive to people with disposable income who are also old.

 

Is there room for more baseball in Florida and Arizona, outside of spring training? Could Phoenix house an AL team?  There are certainly enough people in Maricopa County.

 

Florida, probably not given the Miami and Tampa drawing problems, though people will tell you it's just a problem with stadiums and traffic and not underlying market concerns. Though I guess an Orlando team would be hoping to capture the same visitors market a Vegas team would.

[GDAWG]

36 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I feel like baseball is most attractive to people with disposable income who are also old.

 

Is there room for more baseball in Florida and Arizona, outside of spring training? Could Phoenix house an AL team?  There are certainly enough people in Maricopa County.

 

Florida, probably not given the Miami and Tampa drawing problems, though people will tell you it's just a problem with stadiums and traffic and not underlying market concerns. Though I guess an Orlando team would be hoping to capture the same visitors market a Vegas team would.

 

The Rays have been winning, so if they had a stadium similar to what the Twins have at Target Field, they might get a nice crowd.  

[TBGKon]

17 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

 

The Rays have been winning, so if they had a stadium similar to what the Twins have at Target Field, they might get a nice crowd.  

Location of any future Rays stadium is KEY.  If it remains in St Pete, it will have a spike in attendance and then settle out fast.  A stadium in Tampa proper will have more population to draw from and likely will carry over best.

[tBBP]

4 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

Denver actually has water.

 

Not as much as you might think—but your point still stands. I just keep thinking about the Bellagio whenever the topic of Vegas comes up, only because of all the water it uses for those fountain shows out front, juxtaposed with the repeated water restrictions that keep going on out there. 

 

4 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

Also, Denver metro still has nearly a million people more than Vegas. 

 

The way things are going it'll be close to 3 million more in about 26 minutes...

 

3 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I feel like baseball is most attractive to people with disposable income who are also old.

 

I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about that  Then again my income ain't quite disposable (& probably won't be for another 14 years), but I find it more enjoyable to take in the game at the park. I CANNOT do baseball on TV, I just can't. But something about being in the park, though...

 

2 hours ago, TBGKon said:

Location of any future Rays stadium is KEY.  If it remains in St Pete, it will have a spike in attendance and then settle out fast.  A stadium in Tampa proper will have more population to draw from and likely will carry over best.

 

I haven't been down to Tampa in a few years,  ao things may have changed—but wasn't/isn't there still a patch of green space next to the RayJay to the north, across from the Tampa Yankees park? Is there a good reason the Rays can't fit one in there? (I don't know,  I'm just curious.) 

[FiddySicks]

24 minutes ago, tBBP said:

 The way things are going it'll be close to 3 million more in about 26 minutes...

Yeah, see. That’s part of the problem. Vegas’ population growth rate is still outpacing their infrastructure growth, because the state has no money for things like that due to a lot of poor planning, and eventually something is going to give. I’m very happy I won’t be anywhere near there when it does.  Vegas has a lot of self created problems, and one is a surprisingly stagnant real estate market, even with the growth.  A lot of people moved their with the COVID issue, and now a lot of people are trying to get back out (because, as a place to live, Vegas kinda sucks, and the job market has never been known to be all that strong). I know a lot of people who have moved down there because it’s more affordable, and a bunch of them have a bit of “Buyers remorse”, if you will. Add to that the increase in mortgage rates and you’ve got a confluence of issues that don’t bode too well for Vegas’ long term future. Nevada in general is and always has been a mess, and it’s gotten progressively worse in the past five years. 

[who do you think]

19 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I feel like baseball is most attractive to people with disposable income who are also old.

 

Is there room for more baseball in Florida and Arizona, outside of spring training? Could Phoenix house an AL team?  There are certainly enough people in Maricopa County.

 

Florida, probably not given the Miami and Tampa drawing problems, though people will tell you it's just a problem with stadiums and traffic and not underlying market concerns. Though I guess an Orlando team would be hoping to capture the same visitors market a Vegas team would.

 

And they would be wrong. Miami is a terrible pro sports market. It shows in their consistently sorry home crowds in just about every major sport where they are represented. Tampa, for whatever reason, just doesn't care about the Rays and in all likelihood never will. The team should just be scrapped for parts because they do have a smart organization whose efforts are being wasted here, but that won't happen in the  near future because muh Tampa Bay population growth.

[TBGKon]

16 hours ago, tBBP said:

I haven't been down to Tampa in a few years,  ao things may have changed—but wasn't/isn't there still a patch of green space next to the RayJay to the north, across from the Tampa Yankees park? Is there a good reason the Rays can't fit one in there? (I don't know,  I'm just curious.) 

Yes, the are north of Raymond James Stadium is currently parking lots for gameday. It used to be home to old Tampa Stadium.  It hasnt been a site spoken about in the limited talks.  My hunch is that since its directly across the street from the Yankees complex, it's not considered due to optics.

[FiddySicks]

22 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

I feel like baseball is most attractive to people with disposable income who are also old.

 

Is there room for more baseball in Florida and Arizona, outside of spring training? Could Phoenix house an AL team?  There are certainly enough people in Maricopa County.

 

Florida, probably not given the Miami and Tampa drawing problems, though people will tell you it's just a problem with stadiums and traffic and not underlying market concerns. Though I guess an Orlando team would be hoping to capture the same visitors market a Vegas team would.

Lol, no. There are close to five million people in the metro area, and they won’t support the team they currently have (who, mind you, is in a fantastic location in terms of access from all over the county). Phoenix as a whole is far and away the most tepid sports market I’ve ever seen. One of the reasons I chose to move there (along with school, of course) is because it’s a huge city with everything you could possibly want on a sports and entertainment front. I was shocked and disheartened to see just how poorly their teams were followed. Most of their games, in all sports, felt like funerals.  And you have leadership who constantly wants make the wrong choices, such as moving teams from the heart of downtown (who don’t even play in old facilities) to the outskirts of town on the taxpayer dollar. In Phoenix’s case, it’s not just a stadium issue. It’s just a bad market. 

[GDAWG]

 

 

[DustDevil61]

Well, what do ya know? The A’s might not have anywhere to go after all.

[GDAWG]

37 minutes ago, DustDevil61 said:

Well, what do ya know? The A’s might not have anywhere to go after all.

 

The faster the A's and Rays solve their stadium issues, the faster MLB will announce expansion to 32.  

 

 

[who do you think]

The A's are running out of time, for realsies this time!

 

4 hours ago, GDAWG said:

The faster the A's and Rays solve their stadium issues, the faster MLB will announce expansion to 32.  

 

Well sure, MLB already has two dead franchises with nowhere to go, why not add two more?

[GDAWG]

 

 

[gosioux76]

On 1/16/2023 at 11:53 AM, TBGKon said:

Location of any future Rays stadium is KEY.  If it remains in St Pete, it will have a spike in attendance and then settle out fast.  A stadium in Tampa proper will have more population to draw from and likely will carry over best.

 

Hadn't seen this news posted yet, but the St. Petersburg mayor on Monday selected a development team led by the Rays to redevelop Tropicana Field. The Rays proposal included the construction of a new 30,000-seat ballpark. 

 

This isn't a done deal, though. This is just a development agreement -- the city choosing a contractor who responded to a bid. The team still needs to commit to St. Pete, which is a separate agreement. Its owner said it remains in dialogue with Tampa. 

 

So it's progress, but not the end. 

[McCall]

19 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

 

Hadn't seen this news posted yet, but the St. Petersburg mayor on Monday selected a development team led by the Rays to redevelop Tropicana Field. The Rays proposal included the construction of a new 30,000-seat ballpark. 

 

This isn't a done deal, though. This is just a development agreement -- the city choosing a contractor who responded to a bid. The team still needs to commit to St. Pete, which is a separate agreement. Its owner said it remains in dialogue with Tampa. 

 

So it's progress, but not the end. 

I've been under the impression from folks around here who live in the area, that the location of Tropicana Field in St. Pete is one of the big drawbacks (in addition to the abandoned Home Depot they play in) in regards to local attendance. That nobody likes making the drive on a daily basis, as would season ticket holders specifically. Wouldn't building a new stadium in that exact location kinda be counterproductive?

[gosioux76]

42 minutes ago, McCall said:

I've been under the impression from folks around here who live in the area, that the location of Tropicana Field in St. Pete is one of the big drawbacks (in addition to the abandoned Home Depot they play in) in regards to local attendance. That nobody likes making the drive on a daily basis, as would season ticket holders specifically. Wouldn't building a new stadium in that exact location kinda be counterproductive?

 

Reading some of the additional coverage from down there, apparently the idea is that having a stadium as the anchor of a broader development district will make the location more of a draw. So instead of only going their for a ballgame, it would feature restaurants, shops and probably living spaces that would make it more of a destination.

 

Not saying it'll work, just passing along what I gleaned from the reporting.

 

Otherwise, you're 100% right. Part of the debate has been that the team would be better off in the metro area's population center, in Tampa, and that moving there would definitely prove or disprove the notion of whether Tampa can really support Major League Baseball. I'm sure that's why the Rays have yet to fully commit to St. Pete, even as they pursue this development agreement.