USFL (Alt History)

[Kooky01]

28 minutes ago, neo_prankster said:

 

If they do go to Honolulu, they can rebrand as the Kaiju.

 

Or the Hekili (The Hawaiian word for Thunder). Actually the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to like it. 

[WideRight]

1 hour ago, neo_prankster said:

If they go to Salt Lake City and play at Rice-Eccles, they can be the Rocky Mountain Thunder.

 

Vegas and Honolulu are the only other places they can still get away with the neon green.

 

If they do go to Honolulu, they can rebrand as the Kaiju.

 

Either way, it's pretty sad to see Portland continue to play second fiddle to Seattle, even in fictional universes like this one.

It is an issue, but Portland has very real stadium issues, since Civic Stadium really is an old baseball stadium that has been converted for different uses.  I think it works as an MLS stadium, a good size for that, and Portland State can certainly use it, but for a major league franchise in pro football it would never be big enough, and with the USFL as the only football team in town, it is hard to imagine Portland coughing up the money to build a new stadium with a big enough capacity for Portland to compete with LA, Denver, Arizona, etc.  on revenue.  It's not like the NBA, where cities like Portland or Sacramento can compete on a pretty even playing field with bigger markets, at least when it comes to stadia.  

 

The pattern developing in this alt history is that cities that have both NFL and USFL fall into one of two categories: Cooperation (new stadiums have 3 partners, 2 pro teams and the city) and confrontation (NFL team refuses to play ball with USFL, making stadium issues worse).  Cities without an NFL team have to hope they have a major college nearby to help fund a stadium or struggle with stadium renovation/rehab,.  I see Memphis as another trouble spot, perhaps Birmingham and Orlando too, but at least UAB and UCF might chip in.    Ohio may have issues also since OSU has such a vast stadium for their needs. 

 

Meanwhile we have some major markets in the NFL that don't have the USFL yet, and that could lead to relocation.  I am thinking of Boston metro, Dallas, Miami, Twin Cities, Kansas City, Nashville, Charlotte, and both NFL cities in Ohio. 

 

Stadium politics and pressure from other cities is the new reason USFL teams would move, as opposed to shaky owners or the need to deal with a shift to the Fall, which is what caused most team changes in the real USFL back in the 80s. 

[ManillaToad]

Hawaii would be a lot of fun, but realistically I can't see the USFL even considering it this far into their alt history. With a couple other franchises on shaky ground, I doubt they'd put a team somewhere everybody would expect it to fail. They'd shoot for stability.

[Blindsay]

There was another good point from someone in the USFL Comment section in Week 8 about the Generals and how they need some relevancy…

[BengalErnst]

Columbus better not lose their team!  Now you have me scared 

[raz]

I remember a lot of talk back then about Sacramento (the Surge in the WLAF, Gold Miners in the CFL and Mountain Lions in the UFL) and San Jose (where XFL Demons were originally going to be).

 

I'd say San Jose from among your options. 

[Dozap17]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:45 PM, WideRight said:

OK, more crowdsourcing.  My premise is that the Portland Thunder are never going to be able to get a bigger, better stadium in Portland.  Civic Stadium is fine for the Timbers, there is no MLB or NFL in town, and UO is not interested.  
 

This, in my mind, makes Portland one of the clubs most likely to relocate, and I am thinking early 2000's for that move.  But where?  

 

I know where they are going to end up in the late 2010's,  but I am trying to figure out where they might go in between.  Here are some contenders.  Let me know your thoughts and any suggestions.  Remember that the idea is that this will be a 12-18 year home, but that they will leave again late in the 2010's again because the conditions are not ideal for a profitable endeavor.   And I would want them to stay in the West so as not to force another team to realign or switch divisions.  So, thoughts on possible intermediary locations?

 

• Honolulu, Aloha Stadium
• Las Vegas, Sam Boyd Stadium
• San Jose, SJSU Spartan Stadium
• Dallas, Ford Stadium (SMU)
• Salt Lake City, U. of Utah Stadium

 

 

I'd guess that Las Vegas is the most likely choice, followed by Salt Lake City as next most likely. Not sure about Honolulu because of distance from the mainland, San Jose likely not because of closeness to the Oakland Invaders, Dallas I see as a relocation option for another USFL team with stadium issues (not the Portland Thunder), perhaps for the Birmingham Stallions if they can't fix their stadium situation?

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dozap17
Wanted to add more to this post

[Dozap17]

On 8/8/2022 at 1:29 PM, WideRight said:

Yes, I like the logo and name too much to give it up. 

Las Vegas Thunder would make sense; it was used by a minor league hockey team in real life from 1993-1999, so the name is ripe for picking. Salt Lake City Thunder or Utah Thunder sounds plausible IMO, especially the latter

[ManillaToad]

I hope Birmingham never moves, they're my favorite USFL brand

[BengalErnst]

Las Vegas Xtreme?  We gonna get a Hitman or Enforcers squad? 

[gosioux76]

On 8/8/2022 at 3:14 PM, WideRight said:

It is an issue, but Portland has very real stadium issues, since Civic Stadium really is an old baseball stadium that has been converted for different uses.  I think it works as an MLS stadium, a good size for that, and Portland State can certainly use it, but for a major league franchise in pro football it would never be big enough, and with the USFL as the only football team in town, it is hard to imagine Portland coughing up the money to build a new stadium with a big enough capacity for Portland to compete with LA, Denver, Arizona, etc.  on revenue.  It's not like the NBA, where cities like Portland or Sacramento can compete on a pretty even playing field with bigger markets, at least when it comes to stadia.  

 

The pattern developing in this alt history is that cities that have both NFL and USFL fall into one of two categories: Cooperation (new stadiums have 3 partners, 2 pro teams and the city) and confrontation (NFL team refuses to play ball with USFL, making stadium issues worse).  Cities without an NFL team have to hope they have a major college nearby to help fund a stadium or struggle with stadium renovation/rehab,.  I see Memphis as another trouble spot, perhaps Birmingham and Orlando too, but at least UAB and UCF might chip in.    Ohio may have issues also since OSU has such a vast stadium for their needs. 

 

Meanwhile we have some major markets in the NFL that don't have the USFL yet, and that could lead to relocation.  I am thinking of Boston metro, Dallas, Miami, Twin Cities, Kansas City, Nashville, Charlotte, and both NFL cities in Ohio. 

 

Stadium politics and pressure from other cities is the new reason USFL teams would move, as opposed to shaky owners or the need to deal with a shift to the Fall, which is what caused most team changes in the real USFL back in the 80s. 

 

You're not wrong about stadium issues, and with Portland's relative lack of options for a pro football stadium, either in the current real-life market or in this recent-past of your exercise.  The relocation notion isn't far-fetched, considering the stadium situation, but it's a little tougher narrative when you consider how Portland at this time would be in the middle of a growth period. 

 

There are some creative workarounds, however, that would give you other options outside of relocation.

 

One is Washington: If the state of Oregon, Multnomah County or the city of Portland were unwilling to fork over assistance for a stadium, a team could still occupy the Portland market but locate the stadium north of Vancouver, Washington. It wouldn't be out of line with the story lines of that era, when some teams were forced out of their core cities and into suburbs. 

 

There's also the wealthy benefactor narrative. A little more fantasy, I realize, but maybe Phil Knight sees this as an opportunity to have a stake in the NFL as it's peaking. Perhaps, rather than investing so much in his alma mater (University of Oregon), he funneled his personal wealth into the Portland Thunder, and then parlayed that access into getting Nike league-wide apparel deals a full decade before it happened in real life. 

[Brian in Boston]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:45 AM, WideRight said:

I know where [the Portland Thunder] are going to end up in the late 2010's,  but I am trying to figure out where they might go in between.  Here are some contenders.  Let me know your thoughts and any suggestions.  Remember that the idea is that this will be a 12-18 year home, but that they will leave again late in the 2010's again because the conditions are not ideal for a profitable endeavor.   And I would want them to stay in the West so as not to force another team to realign or switch divisions.  So, thoughts on possible intermediary locations?

 

• Honolulu, Aloha Stadium
• Las Vegas, Sam Boyd Stadium
• San Jose, SJSU Spartan Stadium
• Dallas, Ford Stadium (SMU)
• Salt Lake City, U. of Utah Stadium

Due to the issues that location would cause with regard to travel and national broadcast schedules (the time zone difference with a significant portion of the continental United States would require all manner of machinations in order to fit Hawaii-based games into a reasonable time slot for mainland USFL viewers), I don't see Honolulu realistically gaining traction as a relocation destination with the USFL's owners and executives.

I also don't think the league's owners - particularly those in Oakland - would be keen on having the Thunder relocate a 38 to 40-mile drive from the Invaders home at Oakland-Alameda County Coliseum.

So, as I see it, the most realistic scenario will see the Thunder relocate to one of the three remaining cities on your list - Dallas, Las Vegas, or Salt Lake City - for "12 to 18 years" before ultimately relocating to one of the other two. Personally, I see Dallas factoring in one way or the other. "Big D" - given its population, media market, and love of football - could be the team's initial destination, only to be found wanting due to the Cowboys' stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the region’s  pigskin fans, as well as the competition for the sports dollar with the region's other major-pro teams. Or, rather, Vegas/Salt Lake City is where the Thunder land first, prior to moving to the football-mad DFW Metroplex after one of the two smaller markets underwhelms league leadership.

It will, as always, be interesting to see how you opt to have things play out.  

[JerseyJimmy]

look, I understand you're trying to be "realistic" here, but maybe we shouldn't just put all of these teams in NFL markets.

[WideRight]

1 hour ago, JerseyJimmy said:

look, I understand you're trying to be "realistic" here, but maybe we shouldn't just put all of these teams in NFL markets.

I don't think we will see all of the teams in NFL markets, but there are some cities which are a bit problematic stadium-wise.  I think it is safe to say that several non-NFL cities are just fine and new stadiums will be built as needed, while others maybe not.   I can tell you that the plan for the Thunder will have them eventually in a non-NFL city, but not Portland.   I am actually planning for 4 relocations between 2002-2018.  Some dramatic, some not so much. 

[neo_prankster]

6 hours ago, WideRight said:

I don't think we will see all of the teams in NFL markets, but there are some cities which are a bit problematic stadium-wise.  I think it is safe to say that several non-NFL cities are just fine and new stadiums will be built as needed, while others maybe not.   I can tell you that the plan for the Thunder will have them eventually in a non-NFL city, but not Portland.   I am actually planning for 4 relocations between 2002-2018.  Some dramatic, some not so much. 

Where are the NFL teams right now? Same cities as real life right?

 

I mean, did the Rams stay in Los Angeles this whole time or did they go to St. Louis?

 

How about the Houston Oilers? Did the Raiders move back to Oakland? Did the Ravens ever come to existence? Will the Saints still be affected by Hurricane Katrina? Has Washington or Kansas City rebranded? Will the Chargers stay in San Diego?

[WideRight]

17 hours ago, neo_prankster said:

Where are the NFL teams right now? Same cities as real life right?

 

I mean, did the Rams stay in Los Angeles this whole time or did they go to St. Louis?

 

How about the Houston Oilers? Did the Raiders move back to Oakland? Did the Ravens ever come to existence? Will the Saints still be affected by Hurricane Katrina? Has Washington or Kansas City rebranded? Will the Chargers stay in San Diego?

A good question, and one I have not really addressed on the Alt History website, not in any depth.  This is the NFL as of 2000:

 

AFC EAST:  BUF-MIA-NYJ-NE-BAL                     (Baltimore Ravens moved from Cleveland in 95)

AFC CENTRAL: CLE-CIN-PIT-IND-TEN- HOU       

(Tenn. Copperheads were 1995 Expansion Club,  Houston Oilers never moved.  This is the one 6-team division)

                                                                      

AFC WEST:  KC-DEN-SD-LA-SEA                         (Raiders never moved from LA)

 

NFC EAST:  NYG-DAL-PHI-WSH-CAR              (Carolina Panthers were 1995 Expansion Club)

NFC CENTRAL: CHI-MIN-DET-GBY-TBY

NFC WEST: SF-ARZ-STL-NOR-ATL                     (Rams relocated to STL in late 1990's)

 

The league is scheduled to add 1 more team, to expand to 32 in 2002, the two frontrunning cities are Jacksonville and San Antonio, due to the success of the USFL franchises in those cities.   When they add the 32nd team, the league will shift to 8 divisions of 4 clubs each, creating a similar format to what we see IRL.   The new format will be: 

 

AFC EAST:   BUF-MIA-NYJ-NE

AFC NORTH:  CLE-CIN-PIT-BAL

AFC SOUTH: IND-TEN-HOU-EXPANSION CLUB

AFC WEST:  KC-DEN-SD-LA

 

NFC EAST: DAL-NYG-PHI-WSH

NFC SOUTH: ATL-TBY-CAR-NOR

NFC NORTH: CHI-DET-GBY-MIN

NFC WEST: SF-STL-ARZ-SEA

 

(Seattle moves to the NFC West, expansion club joins AFC South)

[WideRight]

Working on my 3 Reebok Redos for the 2002 season.  What I think we will see:

 

1. Tampa Bay:  Same main logo, a lot of uniform changes from the current 1990's look.

 

2. Philadelphia:  Updated logo, updated uniform with some "modern" touches.

 

3. Atlanta:  An new primarly logo, new helmet look but the uniforms don't change much. 

 

Looking ahead to potential changes for Seattle, Texas, LA (again), and Baltimore in the near future. 

[neo_prankster]

3 hours ago, WideRight said:

A good question, and one I have not really addressed on the Alt History website, not in any depth.  This is the NFL as of 2000:

 

AFC EAST:  BUF-MIA-NYJ-NE-BAL                     (Baltimore Ravens moved from Cleveland in 95)

AFC CENTRAL: CLE-CIN-PIT-IND-TEN- HOU       

(Tenn. Copperheads were 1995 Expansion Club,  Houston Oilers never moved.  This is the one 6-team division)

                                                                      

AFC WEST:  KC-DEN-SD-LA-SEA                         (Raiders never moved from LA)

 

NFC EAST:  NYG-DAL-PHI-WSH-CAR              (Carolina Panthers were 1995 Expansion Club)

NFC CENTRAL: CHI-MIN-DET-GBY-TBY

NFC WEST: SF-ARZ-STL-NOR-ATL                     (Rams relocated to STL in late 1990's)

 

The league is scheduled to add 1 more team, to expand to 32 in 2002, the two frontrunning cities are Jacksonville and San Antonio, due to the success of the USFL franchises in those cities.   When they add the 32nd team, the league will shift to 8 divisions of 4 clubs each, creating a similar format to what we see IRL.   The new format will be: 

 

AFC EAST:   BUF-MIA-NYJ-NE

AFC NORTH:  CLE-CIN-PIT-BAL

AFC SOUTH: IND-TEN-HOU-EXPANSION CLUB

AFC WEST:  KC-DEN-SD-LA

 

NFC EAST: DAL-NYG-PHI-WSH

NFC SOUTH: ATL-TBY-CAR-NOR

NFC NORTH: CHI-DET-GBY-MIN

NFC WEST: SF-STL-ARZ-SEA

 

(Seattle moves to the NFC West, expansion club joins AFC South)

So if they Raiders stayed in LA, does that mean Al Davis got the stadium he wanted?

[neo_prankster]

1 hour ago, WideRight said:

Working on my 3 Reebok Redos for the 2002 season.  What I think we will see:

 

1. Tampa Bay:  Same main logo, a lot of uniform changes from the current 1990's look.

 

2. Philadelphia:  Updated logo, updated uniform with some "modern" touches.

 

3. Atlanta:  An new primarly logo, new helmet look but the uniforms don't change much. 

 

Looking ahead to potential changes for Seattle, Texas, LA (again), and Baltimore in the near future. 

At this point, will we see the Rhein Fire's flame in Atlanta?

 

I feel like when you did the WFL scenario two years ago, you could've done the Chicago Fire this:

- Chicago Fire original logo 1974 thru maybe '86?

- Birmingham Fire flame from 1986 thru maybe '94.

- Rhein Fire or MLS Chicago Fire logo starting in the mid to late 90's.

[WideRight]

18 hours ago, neo_prankster said:

So if they Raiders stayed in LA, does that mean Al Davis got the stadium he wanted?

Yes, the Raiders and Express worked together to build Farmers Insurance Field in Carson, CA.  around 1996