Mark McGwire

[Hat Boy]

If steroids call into question McGwire's HR numbers, are the rest of his stats good enough for to make him a first ballot HOFer?

Does he make it eventually?

Not at all?

mcGwire's stats

[CS85]

I think they won't elect him in the first ballot in response to the steroids worries, but he'll get in second ballot.

[KevinMcD]

He wont get in next year with Cal Ripken Jr. & Tony Gwynn also on their first ballot

[Cujo]

McGuire is in on the first ballot. That is unless he actually admits to using steroids (which he won't) or is found to have sometime done it by a very credible source (if there are any out there).

[jkrdevil]

I don't think he will get in next year nor should he. Persoanlly I think he should be held out untill everything gets settled. It would be a mistake to put him in too quickly and then some direct evidence comes out about him and steriods. Then that's a blck eye for the HOF and Basbeall. I don't believe anyone has been removed from the HOF or if it can happen. He has 15 years on the ballot that's enough time to wait and let the dust settle. It is better to be safe than sorry.

[winghaz]

Right now, the only 500-plus home runs hitter who probably won't make the Hall of Fame is Rafael Palmeiro. Unless something Palmeiroish comes along about McGwire, he's in and probably on the first ballot.

[STL FANATIC]

Good idea starting this thread over here.

Here's my most recent post about the situation from the other thread:

This stuff about 1st ballot HOFers is nonsense in my opinion. If a guy deserves to go into the Hall of Fame, he deserves to go in as soon as he is eligible. By inducting a player into the Hall of Fame on any ballot after their first, the HOF committee is just admitting they made a mistake earlier. It's as simple as that. First-ballot carries some extreme weight that it shouldn't.

Also, cheating is cheating period. If your throwing spitting balls or scuffing the ball, your messing with the integrity of the game just as much as taking steriods. Are you changing the stats as much? Perhaps not, but your still hurting the games integrety. I don't care that spitballs and stealing signs have been considered parts of the game and steriods aren't...that's a problem, not something that makes the spitballs and what not an okay thing. And the truth is, steriods were considered part of the game for a long time evidently. It's just now people are going back on a witch hunt to convict players at whim.

If Harmon Kilebrew is in the HOF, Big Mac should be also. Kilebrew had a .256 career average (never over .300 other than a 9 game season where he hit .308..Mac was over .300 3 times and hit .299 his record setting year). Kilebrew had 1 MVP (Mac got robbed in '98). Kilebrew also didn't possess any real speed. Although you say Mac was not very strong defensively, he actually was pretty good and has a gold glove to his credit, something Kilebrew does not. Mac also won the silver slugger three times.

Mac's case is there. The only doubt on whether he gets in is if the HOF leaves him out because of steriods accusations, and if they leave him out because of steriods accusations they'll be hurting the integrity of the HOF, not helping the integrity of baseball.

[Hat Boy]

Also, cheating is cheating period. If your throwing spitting balls or scuffing the ball, your messing with the integrity of the game just as much as taking steriods.

I think the extra stigma with steroids is that they are illegal, unless prescribed by a doctor. However, it is strange that violating the rules of the game (spit balls) is a lesser offense to HOF voters than taking 'roids, which were not specifically outlawed by baseball.

If Harmon Kilebrew is in the HOF, Big Mac should be also. Kilebrew had a .256 career average (never over .300 other than a 9 game season where he hit .308..Mac was over .300 3 times and hit .299 his record setting year). Kilebrew had 1 MVP (Mac got robbed in '98).

At that time 500+ career HRs was one of those magic HOF numbers. I think his 11 All Star appearances may carry a little more weight (before fan voting) and his longevity may have been a factor too, although his first 5 seasons were a wash. Either way, .256 is not good.

Although you say Mac was not very strong defensively, he actually was pretty good and has a gold glove to his credit.

I was takling about his range, not so much his prowess with the glove, although I am surprised by the Gold Glove award.

Mac's case is there. The only doubt on whether he gets in is if the HOF leaves him out because of steriods accusations, and if they leave him out because of steriods accusations they'll be hurting the integrity of the HOF, not helping the integrity of baseball.

i don't think the HOF would leave him off the ballot, but it would be interesting to see what the HOF voters have to say.

[BaltimoreFan]

I don't feel McGwire or anyone suspected of taking steriods should be allowed in the HOF. It is cheating plain and simple. If baseball is not going to let Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson in, there is no way McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro, Giambi, etc. should be let in. It is ridiculous, how good MLB is treating these players. They have made steps in the right direction, but they are nowhere close to where they need to be. There should be no tolerance for steriods at all.

[STL FANATIC]

There's a big difference between suspected and proven, BaltimoreFan.

To leave someone out on suspicion would be ridiculous.

[NJTank]

I want to see him sit one year so I would like to see him miss next year while Gwynn and Ripken are the focus.

[mydogisgomez]

(CBS/AP) In a room filled with humbled heroes, Mark McGwire hemmed and hawed the most.

His voice choked with emotion, his eyes nearly filled with tears, time after time he refused to answer the question everyone wanted to know: Did he take illegal steroids when he hit a then-record 70 home runs in 1998 ? or at any other time?

Asked by Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md., whether he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire said: "I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

Asked whether use of steroids was cheating, McGwire said: "That's not for me to determine."

To a couple of other questions, all he would say is: "I'm retired."

McGwire in the past has denied using steroids but under oath repeatedly declined to respond directly. Peering at lawmakers over reading glasses, his goatee flecked with gray, McGwire was pressed to say whether he had taken performance-enhancing substances or whether he could provide details about use by other players. Over and over, he said he wouldn't respond.

Make him swear under oath in court and in front of his kid that he never took steroids, then let him in.

[jkrdevil]

There's a big difference between suspected and proven, BaltimoreFan.

I agree but what's wrong with taking time and letting things get settled. What is worse? He gets in and direct evidence comes out about him taking steroids? Or he gets in years down the road?

With option B, he does get eventually in and the Hall of Fame and Baseball avoids possible embarrassment of putting him in to quickly and then something else come out.

I agree cheaters shouldn't in. I don't think Gaylord Perry should be a Hall of Famer. I also don't think he should be given as an example to why they should let cheaters in.

Also, stealing signs isn't cheating.

[pcgd]

As is custom with HOF voting for Baseball, it'll continue to make no sense.

Next year it will only be Gwinn and Ripken.

After that it will be McGwire and Jim Rice.

I would vote for Mark McGwire because I'm not a judge, I'm not a psychic, and I'm not a mind reader. If its proven (I have no clue how it could be proven now short of him admitting it) that he took steroids then I say keep him out. But until that time, he should not be left off because of speculation.

[gashouser27]

Make him swear under oath in court and in front of his kid that he never took steroids, then let him in.

Then does this become a prerequistie for the Hall of Fame?

Maybe a lie detector test to prove you have never cheated?

Why just limit this to the few who testified in front of Congress?

I still think in this country we should have a standard that you are innocent until proven guilty

[Swiss]

If McGwire is in the HOF some day... with what cap will he wear in the plaque: A's or Cards?

[mydogisgomez]

Then does this become a prerequistie for the Hall of Fame?

Maybe a lie detector test to prove you have never cheated?

Why just limit this to the few who testified in front of Congress?

I still think in this country we should have a standard that you are innocent until proven guilty

McGwire had the chance to state his innocence in that congressional hearing. He chose not to (I wonder why?). That being said, I would have the utmost respect for him if he would have said something like, "In baseball, like any other job, you are paid to perform. Since there is no rule against the use of steroids in baseball, I used them to make myself a stronger, better player. Looking back on this decision, I regret taking them and am glad MLB is taking steps to remove this evil temptation from the game." ...or something like that. Everyone has seen the transformation from his rookie season to the homerun season, lets not kid ourselves that he never used. He will always have to live with his secret. I would bet if inducted he will not talk to the press at all leading up to the ceremony. Too much "talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

[Cujo]

If McGwire is in the HOF some day... with what cap will he wear in the plaque: A's or Cards?

Good question. I would say St. Louis because his most legendary years as a hitter were spent as a Cadrinal.

[Jigga]

Interesting points on Mark McGwire, guys.

He's got the numbers. He brought the game back. To me, he's tainted--he did something that he is afraid to admit--but he's a Hall Of Famer. Honestly, I don't think he'd been a "First Balloter" without the steroid talk (because of his weak career batting average and limited ability to do anything other than hit homers and draw walks). The thing is if ALL the voters make a point and not vote for McGwire, he loses eligibility. He has to get at least 5% or he'll never get in. I don't think that would be fair since he never failed a drug test.

If he does go in, I think it'd be more fitting for him to be inducted as a member of the St. Louis Cardinals.

[gashouser27]

All good points

I don't want to start a "witch hunt" and throw out names but unless everyone takes some kind of test and there is no proof..you can't make someone guilty based on assumptions..

I think he compares pretty well with Killebrew..He was on some good A's teams..Maybe not first ballot..I think like someone said , the book it still out on how the steroid era plays into baseball history..

And maybe amphetamines too, which are also illegal and according to most people much more prevalent