Bonds vs. Selig *merged*

[Cujo]

Do you have any legitimate proof that Bonds used steriods? And when i say legitimate, i mean something thats not these stupid books? Im shocked at most of you. If you were real baseball fans, no matter your feelings towards Bonds, to not be just infuriated at the thought that a man could be suspended from the game of baseball with no REAL proof that he did anything wrong just blows my mind. what ever happpened to INNOCENT untill proven guilty? I think Roger Clemens said it best, we need to stop this which hunt and get back to whats really important, baseball.

If Selig suspends Bonds without proof, Major League Baseball can kiss my ass, because im done with it.

Proof?? You're forgetting that Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used the clear and the cream or whatever else he got from his boy Victor Conte. His boyfriend eerrr personal trainer Greg Anderson has been convicted for dealing or whatever. And now this book written by two very credible writers comes out saying Bonds was on everything under the sun including cattle steroids ... and you still believe Barry has been 100% clean his entire career??? Does "Bar-oid" need to be caught with with a needle stuck in his ass for you to finally realize that he's been on the juice??

Bonds has done something, no doubt. Look at his size, the links to roids, the shady people he kicks it with. What Bonds needs to do before he gets suspended or even tossed out of baseball is to just fess up, apologize to the fans, and hang 'em up for good. If MLB can ban Pete Rose for betting on baseball without literally catching him red handed, they sure as hell can regulate on Bonds for being a juicer and a cheat.

[CaolinaJoe]

Do you have any legitimate proof that Bonds used steriods? And when i say legitimate, i mean something thats not these stupid books? Im shocked at most of you. If you were real baseball fans, no matter your feelings towards Bonds, to not be just infuriated at the thought that a man could be suspended from the game of baseball with no REAL proof that he did anything wrong just blows my mind. what ever happpened to INNOCENT untill proven guilty? I think Roger Clemens said it best, we need to stop this which hunt and get back to whats really important, baseball.

If Selig suspends Bonds without proof, Major League Baseball can kiss my ass, because im done with it.

Proof?? You're forgetting that Bonds testified to a grand jury that he used the clear and the cream or whatever else he got from his boy Victor Conte. His boyfriend eerrr personal trainer Greg Anderson has been convicted for dealing or whatever. And now this book written by two very credible writers comes out saying Bonds was on everything under the sun including cattle steroids ... and you still believe Barry has been 100% clean his entire career??? Does "Bar-oid" need to be caught with with a needle stuck in his ass for you to finally realize that he's been on the juice??

Bonds has done something, no doubt. Look at his size, the links to roids, the shady people he kicks it with. What Bonds needs to do before he gets suspended or even tossed out of baseball is to just fess up, apologize to the fans, and hang 'em up for good. If MLB can ban Pete Rose for betting on baseball without literally catching him red handed, they sure as hell can regulate on Bonds for being a juicer and a cheat.

Mike Barnicle, Stephen Glass, Jayson Blair, and Dan Rather are/were all considered very credible at one time also. But after questionable sources and just plain made up interviews and documents, 3 were fired. What about the guy whose autobiography was pushed by Oprah and proven to be a fraud?

I think Bucs point, much like mine, is that no one has absolut 100% solid proof that he did anything. It's all hearsay.

Again, how can you suspend a guy for something that was against the rules at the time he "alledgedly" did the it?

[Bleujayone]

All of this is moot anyway because we're not talking about Bonds getting sent to prison- we're talking about him losing his job. You do not need a court conviction to be suspended or fired. Selig is Bonds' boss. If he feels his behavior or attitdue reflects poorly towards his other employees or hurts the company's image he can punish the troubling employee accordingly. If Selig were to suspend or terminate Bonds on the grounds of Bonds of lying to him let alone the rest of his behavior, he would be within his rights to do so. In every other industry, a contract or salary does not guarantee against termination. If you do something wrong you can still be let go. People get fired everyday for all sorts of reasons and most far less than the things Bonds has been doing.

If Bonds wanted to take Selig and MLB to court over it there would be a tsunami of evidence against Bonds that would then be available to the public. Unless Bonds could prove his punishment was done for reasons unrelated to work such as race, or gender, or orientation he would have an uphill battle. At worst MLB would be forced to honor the money involved in his contract, but they would not be obligated to play him nor recognize any of his accomplishments done while in their employment (just like any other company).

[leopard88]

You do not need a court conviction to be suspended or fired. Selig is Bonds' boss. If he feels his behavior or attitdue reflects poorly towards his other employees or hurts the company's image he can punish the troubling employee accordingly. If Selig were to suspend or terminate Bonds on the grounds of Bonds of lying to him let alone the rest of his behavior, he would be within his rights to do so.

Just a point of clarification -- Bonds is an employee of the San Francisco Giants, not MLB. MLB can suspend him, assuming there is sufficient cause to do so under the applicable CBA (which limits the grounds for suspensions). However, only the Giants can terminate him.

[CC97]

You do not need a court conviction to be suspended or fired. Selig is Bonds' boss. If he feels his behavior or attitdue reflects poorly towards his other employees or hurts the company's image he can punish the troubling employee accordingly. If Selig were to suspend or terminate Bonds on the grounds of Bonds of lying to him let alone the rest of his behavior, he would be within his rights to do so.

Just a point of clarification -- Bonds is an employee of the San Francisco Giants, not MLB. MLB can suspend him, assuming there is sufficient cause to do so under the applicable CBA (which limits the grounds for suspensions). However, only the Giants can terminate him.

MLB can kick him out for life.

Not saying they should, but that is an example of how they can terminate.

[leopard88]

You do not need a court conviction to be suspended or fired. Selig is Bonds' boss. If he feels his behavior or attitdue reflects poorly towards his other employees or hurts the company's image he can punish the troubling employee accordingly. If Selig were to suspend or terminate Bonds on the grounds of Bonds of lying to him let alone the rest of his behavior, he would be within his rights to do so.

Just a point of clarification -- Bonds is an employee of the San Francisco Giants, not MLB. MLB can suspend him, assuming there is sufficient cause to do so under the applicable CBA (which limits the grounds for suspensions). However, only the Giants can terminate him.

MLB can kick him out for life.

Not saying they should, but that is an example of how they can terminate.

Semantics!. I think of that as banning him, since it would just mean that the Giants could no longer employ him (nor could any other MLB team). I don't think of that as terminating him since he is not an MLB employee, though the net effect would be the same. Tuh-MAY-toe, tuh-MAH-toe.

[agentrygraphics]

Do you have any legitimate proof that Bonds used steriods? And when i say legitimate, i mean something thats not these stupid books?

With all due respect, bucfan, were you blind in the 90's?

Barry Bonds with the Pirates = "athletic" build, All-Star, above average player.

Barry leaves for Giants.

Barry Bonds with the Giants = The incredible 'ing hulk who could BUNT it out of the park.

It was and still is insanely obvious, tests or no tests, "legitimate" proof or not...when my eyes watch a man put on 900 lbs. of muscle (i exaggerate, i know) in a matter of a few seasons...SOMETHING extra is going on.

Chi-town Shawn - I agree with you...but I'll add to it...I'd go as far to say as not only ESPN, but the sports media in general has been pro Barry.

Again, please see my reasoning above for why I think this. I guess I just have always speculated because I grew up watching him in Pittsburgh, and when he left for SF, I watched an abnormal transformation that went on.

[CaolinaJoe]

So as the steroid witch hunt continues, who is next to be ex post pactoly banned? Since according to all the rummors as much as 50-60% of players were using the, why only ONE?

But why just Barry? He did them and so did alot of other guys in the years when steroids weren't against the stated league rules.

Because he was the best when using them? I'm willing to bet that there were probably guys who benefited from steroid use more than Barry did. Guys who made the Majors and would have never had a chance otherwise.

Because he is a rude and surly man to the press? This is probably the number 1 reason. I remember when Eddie Murray played for the Orioles, he wasn't exactly pleasant to the press either. So every chance they got, they took there shots in the press. Same with Albert Belle. Barry has given the press something a lot better to write about.

Baseball made the rule. Said you guys have one season to get clean, then the suspensions start. Under the guidelines setup by the league, he has passed their tests. How can they suspend when he hasn't violated any current rules. Giambi wasn't suspended for his revelation.

The only reason this is still even a story is because of hate. The press hates Barry. Anyone saying the press or ESPN loves Barry is lost. If it wasn't for the press this all would've died down by now. People in general love to see a person on top get toppled.

[CaolinaJoe]

All of this is moot anyway because we're not talking about Bonds getting sent to prison- we're talking about him losing his job. You do not need a court conviction to be suspended or fired. Selig is Bonds' boss. If he feels his behavior or attitdue reflects poorly towards his other employees or hurts the company's image he can punish the troubling employee accordingly. If Selig were to suspend or terminate Bonds on the grounds of Bonds of lying to him let alone the rest of his behavior, he would be within his rights to do so. In every other industry, a contract or salary does not guarantee against termination. If you do something wrong you can still be let go. People get fired everyday for all sorts of reasons and most far less than the things Bonds has been doing.

If Bonds wanted to take Selig and MLB to court over it there would be a tsunami of evidence against Bonds that would then be available to the public. Unless Bonds could prove his punishment was done for reasons unrelated to work such as race, or gender, or orientation he would have an uphill battle. At worst MLB would be forced to honor the money involved in his contract, but they would not be obligated to play him nor recognize any of his accomplishments done while in their employment (just like any other company).

The "Company" used Bonds as their image. Along with McGwire and Sosa. And for everyone to be so quick to point to the how obvious everything that happened was, how can we believe that those same employers didn't see it also. Hell, if '98 is the start, MLB encouraged Bonds and others to use just by the way the touted the poster boys for pre-Bonds roid use.

Yes, I could see Bonds using the race card if he gets suspended or banned. It wouldn't be his first time playing that hand. I also see an injunction being slapped on anything MLB tries to do to him.

Yes, you can get let go when you break stated company rules and policy. But try making a new rule today and firing a person cause they did it yesterday. That guy will be back at work by the end of the week and you'll have pretty regular correspondence with his attorney from there out.

What if they changed the speed limit on your street to 5 mph from 30mph then tried to give you a lifetime worth of speeding tickets because the was overwhelming evidence you use to drive 30mph down your street?

You buy a candy bar for $1 and walk out of the store. The owner changes the price to $10, calls the police and you get arrested for stealing.

They knew what he ws doing. The heat got to hot on management, so they made the rule to trip him up. He hasn't, others have.

[jkrdevil]

How can you retroactively suspend a guy?  He hasn't popped on any MLB drug test.  Hasn't been charged with perjury from when he denied any use.  Other than everyones belief and opinion, what actual EVIDENCE is there that he used.  I'm not talking about gossip, testimony from guys trying to make deals to stay out of jail, a mistress trying to cash in, or journalist trying to make a name.  I'm talking cold hard evidence.  Blood, urine, or photos.

Do I think he did it? Yeah.  But so what.  No one knows for sure or at least can prove it yet.

Aren't all suspensions retroactive. Afterall the suspension comes after you do something. In this case it's a few years after but still it can be done unless MLB has a statute of limitations for suspensions.

MLB can certaintly launch it's own investigations to where they could prove steroid use with out a positive test. And as these appear to predate the set suspensions for positive test it would give Selig a wide range of suspensions.

What he "allegedly" did wasn't against the rules at the time, and they can't prove any violations after the start of the rule. That's like going back and taking all Gaylord Perry's wins away after they made the spitball illegal.

What court records? You mean all the secret, unreleased testimony from the grand jury?

Recordings of Bonds talking freely? I surely the missed the ESPN onslaught of playing those.

Again, why no criminal charges? He had immunity from everything but perjury. And after the Congress fiasco don't you think they'd press charges if they had something, anything.

I believe steroids have been banned from baseball since 1990, it's just there wasn't any testing. And even if they weren't MLB can suspend a player if it is found out he committed a crime. Yes, Bonds recieved immunity from federal prosecution however that immunity does not extend to suspension in Major League Baseball. And on top of that there is the best interest in baseball clause which can be enacted. A clause that is in the CBA.

MLB can launch it's own independent investigation and investigate the matter and conduct interviews like the reporters did and MLB can use confidential sources in their investigation.

None of his records will be taken away. There is no real way to tell how many were caused by steroids. As for perjury that is a charge that is hard to make stick. Maybe a few witnesses (Anderson) didn't want to testify in court against Bonds.

I never mentioned court records or secert tapings in my post.

Bonds can't be suspended based soley on the book. However MLB can launch it's own investigation and suspend him based on the findings of that. The burden of proof for a suspension is far less than for a conviction.

[RickV]

No matter how many "smoking guns" are lying around someone's house, there are always people who are sure that they weren't fired by that person.

[Mac the Knife]

Yes, to answer the question: MLB absolutely can suspend Bonds, including up to a lifetime suspension if they so choose.

His steroid use is a violation of law in the same vein Pete Rose's gambling is, and as such is fair game whether or not it was in violation of MLB's rules at the time. It'd get contested in court, but either (i) MLB would win anyway, or (ii) the case would take so long to adjudicate that it wouldn't help Bonds if he won anyway.

Personally, I've hated Bonds since the latter part of his days in Pittsburgh. That aside, I say he, and anyone who used these drugs (including Mark McGwire whom I actually like, Sammy Sosa, etc.) should be banned for life. Their efforts to improve their individual performance have done incalculable damage to its integrity, and constitute "conduct detrimental" to the sport as its defined in the MLB Constitution. By that standard, they should be banned for life.

[FiddySicks]

Do you have any legitimate proof that Bonds used steriods? And when i say legitimate, i mean something thats not these stupid books?

With all due respect, bucfan, were you blind in the 90's?

Barry Bonds with the Pirates = "athletic" build, All-Star, above average player.

Barry leaves for Giants.

Barry Bonds with the Giants = The incredible 'ing hulk who could BUNT it out of the park.

It was and still is insanely obvious, tests or no tests, "legitimate" proof or not...when my eyes watch a man put on 900 lbs. of muscle (i exaggerate, i know) in a matter of a few seasons...SOMETHING extra is going on.

Oh you know waht, i think you just swayed me. I have changed my entire opinion on the Bonds issue, because your right. Bonds MUST have taken steriods because his size did obviously change from the mid 80s to the early 21st century. Know what? They should kick Bonds out, and i better warn my neighbors of their sons obvious steriod use because hes WAY bigger now at 15 than he was at 5. And you call me blind.

[Mac the Knife]

And you call me blind.

If he doesn't call you blind, especially after what is reported to be overwhelming evidence, Buc, I will.

Of course everyone should look at the sum total of everything before making a final judgment, but based on what reporting I've seen on it, anyone who thinks Bonds wasn't on the juice now is at a level of delusional that I previously wouldn't think possible.

[RickV]

And you call me blind.

If he doesn't call you blind, especially after what is reported to be overwhelming evidence, Buc, I will.

Of course everyone should look at the sum total of everything before making a final judgment, but based on what reporting I've seen on it, anyone who thinks Bonds wasn't on the juice now is at a level of delusional that I previously wouldn't think possible.

What's the old saying, "there are none so blind as those who will not see?"

[VitaminD]

Oh you know waht, i think you just swayed me. I have changed my entire opinion on the Bonds issue, because your right. Bonds MUST have taken steriods because his size did obviously change from the mid 80s to the early 21st century. Know what? They should kick Bonds out, and i better warn my neighbors of their sons obvious steriod use because hes WAY bigger now at 15 than he was at 5.  And you call me blind.

C'mon now! You're avoiding the point people are making.

Do people change over 20 years? Of course they do. I don't think anyone's contesting that. But let go of the mid-'80s, as it isn't germane to the discussion. Focus on the last 8-9 years, since about the time McGwire and Sosa eclipsed Maris, because that's when this all started for Bonds.

Did Bonds undergo shockingly drastic changes in about 5 years? Yup.

He's got acne; how many 40-somethings start getting pimples 25 years after puberty? His head size is demonstrably bigger, which doesn't happen to normal folks to the degree that it has with Bonds. People don't undergo a second growth spurt in their mid-to-late 30s. Yet Bonds did.

By age 35, most ballplayers have already passed their athletic prime. But Bonds only got better in his late 30s.

You can even disregard what we perceive we see with our eyes. But the numbers don't lie, either.

His best year prior to his bulk-up was 1993 - .336, 46 HR, in 159 games. Other than that season, he was a 25-42 HR guy, more or less. But he was playing almost every game to achieve those stellar numbers. All of a sudden, he hits a new career-best 49 HR at age 36, even sitting out 19 games that year. Then he hits 73 in 153 games, then 46, 45 and 45 while missing at least 15 games each season. Had he played a full season, he'd have hit at least 50 in each of those seasons, all topping his "legitimate" season's best of 46.

Simply put, people don't have career years from their mid-30s on. Especially while missing a significant portion of their season. Especially when it took them a full season in the past to do less, statistically speaking.

There's never going to be 100.000% accurate proof that he did or did not use steroids. But there is a mountain of evidence from several non-corroborating sources that all seem to point in the same direction.

It's an issue now because one of the premier all-time records is threatened, and Bonds has maintained his innocence amidst an ever-increasing torrent of evidence to the contrary. When Lenny Dykstra came to spring training 30 pounds heavier and loaded with muscle, everyone laughed and rolled their eyes. Other than flirting with .400 for half a season and helping get the Phillies to the '93 pennant, Dykstra's legacy never threatened to permanently cloud the MLB history books like Bonds's does.

[brinkeguthrie]

Scottsdale, Ariz. -- Bud Selig almost ran into Barry Bonds on Friday.

Although the commissioner said he had no plan to meet with the left fielder, it nearly happened anyway. They were in the Scottsdale Stadium press box together, maybe 50 feet apart, but never saw each other.

"I did not know that," said Selig, who reiterated that no meeting is planned with Bonds, a subject of the upcoming book, "Game of Shadows: Barry Bonds, BALCO, and the Steroids Scandal that Rocked Professional Sports," written by The Chronicle's Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams.

[NJTank]

Bud Selig is a clown

[FiddySicks]

Oh you know waht, i think you just swayed me. I have changed my entire opinion on the Bonds issue, because your right. Bonds MUST have taken steriods because his size did obviously change from the mid 80s to the early 21st century. Know what? They should kick Bonds out, and i better warn my neighbors of their sons obvious steriod use because hes WAY bigger now at 15 than he was at 5.  And you call me blind.

C'mon now! You're avoiding the point people are making.

Do people change over 20 years? Of course they do. I don't think anyone's contesting that. But let go of the mid-'80s, as it isn't germane to the discussion. Focus on the last 8-9 years, since about the time McGwire and Sosa eclipsed Maris, because that's when this all started for Bonds.

Did Bonds undergo shockingly drastic changes in about 5 years? Yup.

He's got acne; how many 40-somethings start getting pimples 25 years after puberty? His head size is demonstrably bigger, which doesn't happen to normal folks to the degree that it has with Bonds. People don't undergo a second growth spurt in their mid-to-late 30s. Yet Bonds did.

By age 35, most ballplayers have already passed their athletic prime. But Bonds only got better in his late 30s.

You can even disregard what we perceive we see with our eyes. But the numbers don't lie, either.

His best year prior to his bulk-up was 1993 - .336, 46 HR, in 159 games. Other than that season, he was a 25-42 HR guy, more or less. But he was playing almost every game to achieve those stellar numbers. All of a sudden, he hits a new career-best 49 HR at age 36, even sitting out 19 games that year. Then he hits 73 in 153 games, then 46, 45 and 45 while missing at least 15 games each season. Had he played a full season, he'd have hit at least 50 in each of those seasons, all topping his "legitimate" season's best of 46.

Simply put, people don't have career years from their mid-30s on. Especially while missing a significant portion of their season. Especially when it took them a full season in the past to do less, statistically speaking.

There's never going to be 100.000% accurate proof that he did or did not use steroids. But there is a mountain of evidence from several non-corroborating sources that all seem to point in the same direction.

It's an issue now because one of the premier all-time records is threatened, and Bonds has maintained his innocence amidst an ever-increasing torrent of evidence to the contrary. When Lenny Dykstra came to spring training 30 pounds heavier and loaded with muscle, everyone laughed and rolled their eyes. Other than flirting with .400 for half a season and helping get the Phillies to the '93 pennant, Dykstra's legacy never threatened to permanently cloud the MLB history books like Bonds's does.

Look. Ill be the first to admit, as a San Francisco Giants fan, im biased, and dont deny it. All im saying is, is it 100% impossible that the guy is accually telling the truth? Is it at all impossible that a guy who is being accused of a whole lot, yet still sticks to his story, and has the whole time, may accually be dong so because he has been legit? No. Its not impossible. Barry Bonds has been hated by so many his entire career. His entire career hes been the guy that many feel if hes not on your team, hes mud. And ill also admit that a lot of the reason hes been hated was his own damn fault. I just look at one example when i think of the Bonds situation today. 1961. When Maris was on pace to break Ruth's record there were thousands of fans that very much opposed to him breaking that reacord, some even violently opposed. Even Major League Baseball was against it to the point where they put a damn * next to his record after he broke it almost to say as if it wasnt legit. the guy gets close to the Home Run record, many players, fans, media people, and others start this steriods contraversary. Bonds is so close to breaking the record, and the commish wants to suspend him because of association and a few shady sources saying he has done wrong? Thats rediculous. And all this talk "well, Bonds should just fess up to using, because we all know he did it." What the Fu*k? That has to be the most rediculous thing ive ever heard, just because your convinced that he did it he should fess up to using? Where the fu*k is your proof? You pull all this talk that i am blind because i dont agree with you, well to that i say, show me proof. Pull up some sort of document, legit document, anything, that prooves that Bonds used steriods and maybee you just may sway me. (and thats not directed at anyone inparticular, but all of you who have this stance.) Look, there are VERY few Bonds supporters left and ill support the guy till the day hes either caught or found innocent. I know its not a popular belif at all, but im gonna be one of the few thats gonna try to give the guy a fair break. And by this im not even necessarily saying hes innocent either, all im saying is that from what ive seen, Bonds has been ridden by just about everyne his entire career, and there is a possibility that a guy will be prevented from becoming one of the best ever, or may even be kicked out of baseball because of hearsay. Thats what i find so incredibly wrong with all of this. Call me crazy, insane, blind, an idiot, or whatever the hell you wanna call me, frankly i dont care. And ill end it by saying this. If Bonds is caught, ill be the first one to start a thread saying how horribly wrong my judgement was. But untill that, im gonna be one of the few who drops this "witch hunt" and focuses on whats really important, baseball.

[buildingmaint]

If Bonds never failed a drug test that's the truth. Look at what people say about Lance Armstrong . Fact is he has never been caught doping.If you read any of Lance's books he comes off just like Bonds an a-hole.But no one likes him because all he does is win.And no one likes a winner. Let Bonds get the records, then he will retire and we won't have to talk about him any more. If the writers want him in the HOF they will vote him in , if not they won't . A local newspaper writer said he will never use any of his HOF votes for Bonds steroid or no steroids, he just doesn't like him.