North Dakota retiring "Fighting Sioux" nickname

[DEAD!]

Fighting Snus --- Packets of tobacco for your gum, completely underused logo potential.

I didn't know about Snus until I watched 60 Minutes this past Sunday.

I'm offended by the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. Can I just say to hell with tradition and have them change their nickname?

You mean not all Irish are leprechauns? Damn!

[gosioux76]

I'm offended by the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. Can I just say to hell with tradition and have them change their nickname?

I guess if there's one good thing to come from ending this debate, it's the end of stupid comments like this one.

[mfoster]

I've said it before here and I'll say it again. Mascots/nicknames are often a proxy for geographical identification in that they represent something unique or otherwise noteworthy of the area. Thus, to remove Native American references represents a form of ethnic cleansing.

[pcgd]

If the Sioux tribe didn't have a problem with the nickname, then I don't see why anyone else should have a problem.

But the tribe did, or at least was unwilling to grant the University their approval. That's why they're chosing a new nickname.

I think each native American situation needs to be handled on its own merits. If the namesakes are okay with the name and willing to grant a license (Seminoles) then no one should have a problem with the team using it. But when the namesakes decline to give such permission, why the heck shouldn't we respect and honor their decision?

This isn't about "PC," it's about intellectual property. And that's something everyone on this board should be particularly respectful of.

Besides, the tribe still may grant such a license. Seems as though the University has bought themselves enough time for that to either happen or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they told they had to get approval from both Sioux Tribes? One said yes, the other wasn't willing to change their bylaws to allow a vote...maybe I misunderstood though...

[illwauk]

I feel like compromises should try to be reached in cases where a state-funded school is using the name of a tribe that's native to the area since members of that tribe are part of the tax base and that funds the school and (at least in theory) shouldn't feel like they're outside of that university's community. But even then, each case should be heard on its own merits. While I wouldn't be too upset if say Illinois couldn't call themselves the Illini anymore given their dubious history of "honoring" the tribe, I still feel like Eastern Michigan (for example) was too hasty in jettisoning the Hurons name. Right or wrong, EMU was the only reason a lot of people even know what a Huron was.

[Armadillo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they told they had to get approval from both Sioux Tribes? One said yes, the other wasn't willing to change their bylaws to allow a vote...maybe I misunderstood though...

Correct. The Spirit Lake tribe voted to approve the name, and the Standing Rock tribe's council never put it to a vote because the chairman at the time, Ron His Horse Is Thunder, was personally opposed to the name. Ron's tenure ended last year I believe, but the tribal council kept dragging its feet. The polls I saw showed that, if allowed to vote, the Standing Rock tribe would have approved the name by a fair margin.

In the end, the injunction that was keeping this debate alive expired yesterday, and the Standing Rock council said they'd make their decision about holding a referendum AFTER the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education made theirs about whether to retire the name or not. Thus, the Fighting Sioux are no more.

So really, it came down to a handful of vocal activists suppressing opposition voices in order to get their way, which is a damn shame. For the record, I'm a rabid Minnesota Gopher hockey fan.

[gueman]

How about the "Fighting Sue"?

[Joshawaggie]

If the Sioux tribe didn't have a problem with the nickname, then I don't see why anyone else should have a problem. Here's hoping they replacement would be so bad that the board would want to return to the Fighting Sioux.

There are 2 tribes. The Spirit Lake tribe okays it, Standing Rock does not. Overall, it's a minority that opposed it, and the minority won.

[Joshawaggie]

Fighting Sue --- A vicious, bloodthirsty Susanne Lucci logo is required.

Fighting Zoo --- Why pick one animal mascot when you could have hundreds?

Fighting Snus --- Packets of tobacco for your gum, completely underused logo potential.

Fighting Stew --- you can dodge the carrots and the potatoes, but the beef is gonna get ya.

Fighting Suet --- Ok, now I might be going too far.

Fighting Soosaphones --- Yup, I have gone too far.

You missed a good one: Soo, as in the old Soo Line Rail that once was a prominent figure in rail roads.

Also, if the school wanted to be real difficult about things, maybe they could go get permission from the Ojibwe tribe and use that. That would be a whole new can of worms opened.

[OnWis97]

Am I correct in stating that tribes that have "approved" (such as Seminoles) work with the school/athletic department on rituals, band music, uniforms, logos, etc. so that the tribe will be comfortable with them? Or did the Seminole tribe just say "OK" and now FSU does what it wants and tell all the "PC" people to shove it?

It's not really part of the ND issue, but I'm just curious. I'd think someone would be less comfortable with FSUs identity/rituals than UND's, but that's just my gut reaction.

FWIW, I have a history of not being supportive of these nicknames and logos, but have backed off a bit. Particularly when the tribes work with the schools...I think only positive can come from a relationship like that, particularly if the school (and their fans) are willing to part with things that the tribe feels is demeaning. If the Seminole tribe is OK with the tomahawk chop music, etc., then I guess I'd be overstepping to say they're wrong. Anyway, if Armadillo's account is correct, then it is too bad. I wish the second tribe would have had the opportunity to vote and if they would have passed it, the two could have worked with the University to make sure everything was respectful. And if not, I'd like to think the fans could have accepted it (though many would not have).

Of course all this leaves it very difficult for more general, non-tribe terms such as Indians, Braves and Redskins.

[gosioux76]

Let's turn this discussion a different direction. Instead of lamenting this loss of the Sioux identity, who's got a serious suggestion for a replacement identity?

The Sioux identity permeates the entire Grand Forks region. It's clear whatever they become won't be embraced easily. This is a big challenge for the university.

[OnWis97]

No question. This is akin to changing Buckeyes, Red Sox, Longhorns, etc. in terms of how locally embraced/imbedded the identity is. I won't even bother with a suggestion.

[Joshawaggie]

Let's turn this discussion a different direction. Instead of lamenting this loss of the Sioux identity, who's got a serious suggestion for a replacement identity?

The Sioux identity permeates the entire Grand Forks region. It's clear whatever they become won't be embraced easily. This is a big challenge for the university.

It's absolutely huge. Nothing will ever be good enough. It's either going to be "another stupid animal", something about the weather or a color name. You can't get away with a generic name these days (Tigers, wildcats, etc.), and more often than not it will be over thought and over analyzed and it won't be a strong name.

The only good name I can really think of is Rough Riders, and I'm sure most of you will hate it. It has historical meaning to ND (Theodore Roosevelt) and it helps to describe a group of people. There is a High School in Grand Forks that uses it (Red River Rough Riders) so that would be weird to have 2 in the same city, but it might work.

[burgundy]

How about the Spirit or Spirits as a nod to the tribe that did support them? Or would that be too polarizing?

[Tygers09]

I second that this PC crap is getting out of hand. The word Sioux is always associated the two Dakota states. I just recently found out that my family ancestry came from germany; not Polish like the ending of my last name "SKY". Shoot, if there were sport teams named the Krauts or something in German slang and/or slur, I would wear it with pride! Where is the offense of have a sport team named after a particular group of people?

[gosioux76]

On regional references alone, North Dakota is lacking. References to the prairie are lame. Pioneers is overused. Explorers might work, but it's akin to Pioneers in imagery.

The one area of untapped potential would seem to be something aviation themed. Not only does Grand Forks have a major U.S. Airforce Base, but UND is home to the John D. Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences, one of the preeminent aviation schools in the country and in recent decades one of the campus' biggest claims to fame.

[OnWis97]

On regional references alone, North Dakota is lacking. References to the prairie are lame. Pioneers is overused. Explorers might work, but it's akin to Pioneers in imagery.

The one area of untapped potential would seem to be something aviation themed. Not only does Grand Forks have a major U.S. Airforce Base, but UND is home to the John D. Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences, one of the preeminent aviation schools in the country and in recent decades one of the campus' biggest claims to fame.

Particularly since Denver is in its conference in hockey, the only sport that matters.

[Joshawaggie]

On regional references alone, North Dakota is lacking. References to the prairie are lame. Pioneers is overused. Explorers might work, but it's akin to Pioneers in imagery.

The one area of untapped potential would seem to be something aviation themed. Not only does Grand Forks have a major U.S. Airforce Base, but UND is home to the John D. Odegard School of Aerospace Sciences, one of the preeminent aviation schools in the country and in recent decades one of the campus' biggest claims to fame.

They could go with Predators, after the UAV at the Base. Something aviation though would probably be a very good idea for the University. It would help promote that they are one of the best places in the country for aviation (#1 last I head).

[aci]

'Spirit Lake Sioux' would be an interesting choice.

It'd really be a kick in the teeth to the geniuses in charge over at Standing Rock, but realistically if they want it changed back to what it was, all they'd have to do is approve the original name.

[The_Admiral]

The only good name I can really think of is Rough Riders, and I'm sure most of you will hate it. It has historical meaning to ND (Theodore Roosevelt) and it helps to describe a group of people. There is a High School in Grand Forks that uses it (Red River Rough Riders) so that would be weird to have 2 in the same city, but it might work.

worked for the CFL.

Isn't there a big Fighting Sioux mosaic in the arena concourse so that changing their identity would be even more expensive? Watch, they'll uninstall the Sioux mosaic only to find that lying beneath it is a giant swastika. Engelstad wins in the end!