George Steinbrenner is dead

[NJTank]

It's not my fault that you obviously forgot the truth. The fact of the matter that he would've treated you crap like he treated all of his employees, so stop with this love-fest. Oh, I'm sorry, he's dead so we now have to ignore the complete truth of what a truly mean person he is. Wow! Talk about revisionist history in one day!

Come on he gave George Costanza a job when he was at the lowest point in his life, he must have not be that bad of boss.

[The_Admiral]

It's not my fault that you obviously forgot the truth. The fact of the matter that he would've treated you crap like he treated all of his employees, so stop with this love-fest. Oh, I'm sorry, he's dead so we now have to ignore the complete truth of what a truly mean person he is. Wow! Talk about revisionist history in one day!

There's a difference between giving a balanced and nuanced assessment in opposition to the lovefest and then there's trying to be an asswipe for attention. Trust me, I know, I act like an asswipe for attention all the time. This is my wheelhouse.

[IceCap]

My first thought when I heard it this morning was, "You damn selfish bastard! You couldn't wait a day to die and have it all to yourself? NO!!!" So now it will be an All-Star Game that becomes a Steinbrenner love fest. I don't have a problem with him spending the money, and it's not his fault that teams such as KC, and Pittsburgh don't, but let's be honest here, he was the most selfish and insecure a-hole there ever was. It wasn't about the Yankees winning, it was about George owning the Yankees who won. Go to Hell George where you belong right next to Georgia Frontiere! You two bastards deserve each other's company! Stop kissing his ass as he doesn't deserve a love fest.

George Steinbrenner is nothing to me. I didn't know the man, and thus I'm not saddened by his death. Still, he was someone to someone else, and that's enough for me to have a little human decency regarding his passing. The man's "transgression" against you is in the realm of baseball. Gain some perspective.

You must be a rather sad person to gain pleasure from the death of someone else and the pain their loved ones are going through.

Where did I say that I gained pleasure from his death, please quote that. Because a man was mean, I should be happy about his life and the way he treated people poorly? George Steinbrenner by all accounts except those in his own family was a feared man, because he was just mean. He was a mean and cruel individual. I have nothing against what he did as a baseball owner, for that I applaud the man, but he only succeeded when he had managers who weren't afraid of him. He ran his team by fear. He treated his players and people within the organization like crap. There are many documented cases of it, too many to ignore. Want a recent one on how mean and selfish George was? Read Joe Torre's book. Research the crap he did to Dave Winfield. He was a mean and dispicable man. I'm not happy he's dead, I'm just telling the truth that he was a mean and dispicable person who was insecure. But please read through my original post and tell me where I wrote, "I'm happy he's dead" because I can't find it.

Lets see. You said, and I quote, "Go to Hell George where you belong right next to Georgia Frontiere!"

That seems to imply you're happy he's dead. And considering what the man did, run a baseball team, you being happy he's dead, and thus happy that his loved ones are in mourning, means you're one sick person. You and jayjackson3, really.

You don't like what he stood for? You don't like the kind of person he was? He contributed, heavily, to charities across the United States.

I admit, as a Jays fan I LOATHED him for his ability to field a dominant Yankees team that buried the Jays in the standings year after year. The thing is, I have enough common sense to be able to separate my "hate" from the man in a sporting context into not-hate in a practical, real world context. You and jj3 seem unable to do that. I also have enough human decency to not celebrate his death like some evil dictator died. The man ran a baseball team. If how he ran it is angering you this much, and blinding you to the fact that he was a successful businessman both on and off the baseball field and that he gave generously to various charities (even one run by his team's biggest rival) then you're both sad, sad souls who can't separate sports from what really matters.

I'm not going to call Steinbrenner a god. Nor will I say he was the greatest human being to ever grace Major League Baseball. I won't even say he was a genius. I will say that he did what he had to to do to field a competitive team year after year and that I may have hated him in a sporting context for fielding that team in the same division as the Blue Jays I can't say I actually really hated him. His charitable work outshines anything he ever did in a baseball context when you step back and actually gain a sense of perspective.

[BBTV]

Just curious, because I really don't know - are there any documented accounts of him treating his employees like crap? I don't mean just yelling at a player or firing a manager - it is sports, afterall.

[Shmee]

Don't call someone else ignorant than quote incorrect info...

Yes the Brewers have been spending more the past few years and are around $80 million in payroll

But you're pretty low on the Pirates, their payroll is around $50 million

Oh man. You may be right, I may be a dick. But you're definitely wrong here. Now, I admit I made a mistake earlier in failing to cite my sources, but you should have at least done some research before saying I quoted incorrect information.

The following trusted sports news sources give the Pittsburgh Pirates 2010 payroll as:

• CNN: $39,068,000 (source)
  
• USA Today: $34,943,000 (source)
  
• CBS: $34,943,000 (source)
  
• ESPN: $34,933,000 (source)
  

If you could share your sources, I'd very much appreciate it. Clearly mine are unreliable. Thanks!

[JayJaxon]

Just curious, because I really don't know - are there any documented accounts of him treating his employees like crap? I don't mean just yelling at a player or firing a manager - it is sports, afterall.

Well he did hire a guy to dig up dirt on Dave Winfield. Not only that but he made the manager drop Winfield in the Lineup and leaked (mostly false) rumors to embarrass Winfield. That's just one guy. Who knows how many we don't know about.

Ice_Cap, I never said I was happy he was dead nor happy his family was in mourning. I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. It kinda bothers me that everyone else is allowed to kiss his ass but others are not allowed to tell how they really felt about the guy. Dying doesn't mean you were a good person. I'm sorry. It just doesn't.

[FiddySicks]

You know, I'm actually glad there are those out there who are celebrating his death (although I've seen little to back this up), and I bet George would be pretty glad too. If you're death is a cause for celebration for some because of what you did for baseball, you must've been pretty damn good at what you did.

I used to "hate" the boss too, but I took a tour of the new Yankee Stadium a few weeks ago and I have to say it was the best sports related moment of my life. All the success that's out on display, much of which he was directly responsible for, and the way the Yankees cater to their fans really impressed me. The whole time the most overwhelming feeling I had was that Steinbrenner must've been a huge fan of the game who wanted nothing more than for his team to win. How can we, as die hard fans ourselves, put that down?

[IceCap]

Ice_Cap, I never said I was happy he was dead nor happy his family was in mourning. I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. It kinda bothers me that everyone else is allowed to kiss his ass but others are not allowed to tell how they really felt about the guy. Dying doesn't mean you were a good person. I'm sorry. It just doesn't.

See, you keep claiming he was this terrible guy simply because he ran a baseball team you don't like in a manner you didn't approve of (and one I don't like, for the record). Never mind the fact that he gave millions to charities across the US. Never mind the fact that you're letting you "sports hate" of the man actually manifest itself as real hate. It's that last point that you really can't seem to get over. The man ran a baseball team. Is that enough for you decry him as a terrible human being? Despite the good he did outside of the game? If you think so, then you need help, and a little perspective.

[See Red]

Ice_Cap, I never said I was happy he was dead nor happy his family was in mourning. I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. It kinda bothers me that everyone else is allowed to kiss his ass but others are not allowed to tell how they really felt about the guy. Dying doesn't mean you were a good person. I'm sorry. It just doesn't.

See, you keep claiming he was this terrible guy simply because he ran a baseball team you don't like in a manner you didn't approve of (and one I don't like, for the record). Never mind the fact that he gave millions to charities across the US. Never mind the fact that you're letting you "sports hate" of the man actually manifest itself as real hate. It's that last point that you really can't seem to get over. The man ran a baseball team. Is that enough for you decry him as a terrible human being? Despite the good he did outside of the game? If you think so, then you need help, and a little perspective.

It'd be one thing if he's saying this because he didn't like how he ran the team simply from the sports perspective -- but if he did treat the people that worked for him terribly, then that's a whole 'nother thing and from what I understand, at times that was the case.

I don't really feel the same way, but I can see how someone might. I've heard about his donating to charities, I heard a story of him completely paying for a stranger's education for no real reason other than that the person was trying to work a full schedule and take classes at the same time. Didn't like the guy, but I'm a Sox fan and that's expected. It's very unfortunate that he passed and even despite his downfalls, it brought me down quite a bit this morning when I read of his passing.

[BBTV]

Just curious, because I really don't know - are there any documented accounts of him treating his employees like crap? I don't mean just yelling at a player or firing a manager - it is sports, afterall.

Well he did hire a guy to dig up dirt on Dave Winfield. Not only that but he made the manager drop Winfield in the Lineup and leaked (mostly false) rumors to embarrass Winfield. That's just one guy. Who knows how many we don't know about.

That's all you could come up with? You hate everything he stands for, and we have post after post about him treating his employees like garbage, and that's it? I'm talking about the accountants, the front-office people, his assistants - you know, the "real" employees.

I hate the Yankees, and I couldn't care less about Steinbrenner, but I think many of you are simply embarassing yourselves with your misplaced venom. Was he insecure, and did he have some issues? Of course. Did he do a whole heck of a lot of good things for people in his life? Absolutely. He was very competitive and fired managers and punished highly-paid players when they didn't deliver. Does that make him evil? Nope. Let's get real here - you're jealous that he was able to make a ton of money in his market and use that money (just like you'd want the owner of "your" team to do) to improve his team. He has a high profile. If the owner of the Kansas City Royals died, nobody would bat an eyelash. With that profile comes exaggeration and hyperbole on both sides of the fence. Just like the people who are crying and expressing their undying love are making fools of themselves, so are the people who "hate what he stands for". What exactly did he stand for?

[Gothamite]

What exactly did he stand for?

Like most of us, he stood for a lot of very contradictory things.

He was a harsh, abrasive and occasionally cruel boss, prone to firing people in fits. Driven by ambition and personal demons, he was willing to spend whatever it took, hire whomever it took, fire whomever it took, to build a winning club.

He also spent millions of his own money on college scholarships for needy kids. He rescued the Florida Orchestra when it was about to close its doors. He started a foundation for the families of cops and firefighters killed in the line of duty.

Like most men, Steinbrenner was sinner and saint. In his case, they both seemed to come in large doses.

[NJTank]

From what I have heard many of Steinbrenner's demons come from his father, who viewed George as a failure and that nothing he did was ever good enough for him. It could be some of this rubbed off on George and led to the reason he was so demanding.

[BBTV]

What exactly did he stand for?

Like most of us, he stood for a lot of very contradictory things.

He was a harsh, abrasive and occasionally cruel boss, prone to firing people in fits. Driven by ambition and personal demons, he was willing to spend whatever it took, hire whomever it took, fire whomever it took, to build a winning club.

He also spent millions of his own money on college scholarships for needy kids. He rescued the Florida Orchestra when it was about to close its doors. He started a foundation for the families of cops and firefighters killed in the line of duty.

Like most men, Steinbrenner was sinner and saint. In his case, they both seemed to come in large doses.

Fair enough, but who did he "fire" outside of the baseball-operations realm? Sports is very competitve and highly emotional - it's not like real life. I don't see an issue with him firing managers and GMs who aren't getting it done. If he's belittling the poor receptionist, or whipping an accountant with his belt, then there's an issue. Being competitive and having an ego are certainly not traits to be celebrated, but they're also not traits to be condemned.

[Gothamite]

Fair enough, but who did he "fire" outside of the baseball-operations realm? Sports is very competitve and highly emotional - it's not like real life. I don't see an issue with him firing managers and GMs who aren't getting it done. If he's belittling the poor receptionist, or whipping an accountant with his belt, then there's an issue. Being competitive and having an ego are certainly not traits to be celebrated, but they're also not traits to be condemned.

I would never say that they are. On the contrary, I think every sports fan would kill to have an owner like the Boss.

As for his firings, it's tough to say, because part of the contradiction of Steinbrenner was that he often shunned publicity in his personal dealings. We've heard lots of stories over the last day about him firing a secretary and then putting her kids through college.

If we're really interested in creating a potted version of The Boss, that seems to sum him up nicely.

[BBTV]

Fair enough, but who did he "fire" outside of the baseball-operations realm? Sports is very competitve and highly emotional - it's not like real life. I don't see an issue with him firing managers and GMs who aren't getting it done. If he's belittling the poor receptionist, or whipping an accountant with his belt, then there's an issue. Being competitive and having an ego are certainly not traits to be celebrated, but they're also not traits to be condemned.

I would never say that they are. On the contrary, I think every sports fan would kill to have an owner like the Boss.

As for his firings, it's tough to say, because part of the contradiction of Steinbrenner was that he often shunned publicity in his personal dealings. We've heard lots of stories over the last day about him firing a secretary and then putting her kids through college.

If we're really interested in creating a potted version of The Boss, that seems to sum him up nicely.

I agree that we would all like to have our teams owned by someone like Steinbrenner, however, let's not get carried away here. He's not winning championships if he bought Pittsburgh or Kansas City. Then again, a successful businessman and someone of his nature wouldn't buy one of those clubs.

I'd really like to know more about him outside of the baseball world. I get that he's got a lot of issues and is certainly no saint, but I've never heard of or read of him acting out on his civilian employees.

[Gothamite]

I agree that we would all like to have our teams owned by someone like Steinbrenner, however, let's not get carried away here. He's not winning championships if he bought Pittsburgh or Kansas City. Then again, a successful businessman and someone of his nature wouldn't buy one of those clubs.

I'm not actually sure that I completely agree with that. Yes, the Yankees gave him the best foundation on which to build a marketing empire. But if he had been in Kansas City, he might have been able to build them into a true regional franchise. Who knows what he would have been able to do in Cleveland if the Indians hadn't spurned his offer to buy them?

Yes, the Yankees offered him the perfect platform on which to build a marketing empire. But New York isn't the easiest market in which to work - just ask the hapless Wilpons. And as the essential founder of the modern baseball business, he tailored it to his strengths. Steinbrenner may well have been able to keep the Royals and Pirates competitive in baseball's top tier, if not at the very summit.

[The_Admiral]

I used to "hate" the boss too, but I took a tour of the new Yankee Stadium a few weeks ago and I have to say it was the best sports related moment of my life. All the success that's out on display, much of which he was directly responsible for, and the way the Yankees cater to their fans really impressed me.

Funny you say that. The new Yankee Stadium, with its prohibitively expensive ticket prices, destruction of Macombs Dam Park, and millions and millions in public funding better spent elsewhere in New York, is pretty fan-unfriendly to me.

[Gothamite]

I used to "hate" the boss too, but I took a tour of the new Yankee Stadium a few weeks ago and I have to say it was the best sports related moment of my life. All the success that's out on display, much of which he was directly responsible for, and the way the Yankees cater to their fans really impressed me.

Funny you say that. The new Yankee Stadium, with its prohibitively expensive ticket prices, destruction of Macombs Dam Park, and millions and millions in public funding better spent elsewhere in New York, is pretty fan-unfriendly to me.

Aside from the prices, that's all par for the course with new stadiums. Hardly unique to the Big Ballpark in the Bronx.

[OnWis97]

I used to "hate" the boss too, but I took a tour of the new Yankee Stadium a few weeks ago and I have to say it was the best sports related moment of my life. All the success that's out on display, much of which he was directly responsible for, and the way the Yankees cater to their fans really impressed me.

Funny you say that. The new Yankee Stadium, with its prohibitively expensive ticket prices, destruction of Macombs Dam Park, and millions and millions in public funding better spent elsewhere in New York, is pretty fan-unfriendly to me.

Aside from the prices, that's all par for the course with new stadiums. Hardly unique to the Big Ballpark in the Bronx.

I made it to NYC last May and went to both NY parks. I actually preferred Citi Field. There's nothing wrong with Yankee Stadium III (save for the above criticism about the taxes, etc.), but I could not figure out where all that money went. I know land there is more valuable than say, the County Stadium Parking lot, but the ballpark cost more than double Miller Park, which has a retractable roof. But I suppose I've digressed from the thread.

My small market take is as follows:

I hated Steinbrenner when the income gap started growing in the 1990s. I viewed it as the primary problem in MLB. I still do, but the blame on Steinbrenner and his team was misplaced. The (at the time) moribund Twins franchise was at a disadvantage (how some people dispute that is beyond me), but Carl Pohlad was a terrible owner. He bought the club from the previous owner, who could not keep up with salaries. Ironically, it was happening to him too. So he chose to just maximize his finances. Unfortunately in sports, which are a business, making money and winning are not always hand-in-hand (see D. Sterling) and smilin' Carl went for the money. He probably pocketed some of George's. While I will never believe it would have been reasonable for Pohlad to try to have a Yankee-sized payroll (he could have personally afforded it, but it would have been an unreasonable loss), he could at least have put his baseball money back onto the field.

So, George started making his team better by spending a bit more. And that "bit" grew and grew. It was bound to happen. And now when a big-time free agent comes along, we all know there are about six teams that he may join. Fair for the fans? No. But what was George supposed to do? Was he to say "I think the Pirates 'deserve' Sabathia, so I'm backin' off." The income gap is unfair, but it's MLB's job, not Steinbrenner's to rectify it. MLB never did that. I can't blame Yankee ownership for wanting to win.

As for George the man...he seems very Bobby Knight like. Competitive, but hot-headed and (certainly for Knight, not sure for George) possibly verbally abusive to those around him. Two guys you walk on eggshells around. But then you hear stories about incredibly generous, charitable things they both do. Both are difficult to label.

[OnWis97]

I used to "hate" the boss too, but I took a tour of the new Yankee Stadium a few weeks ago and I have to say it was the best sports related moment of my life. All the success that's out on display, much of which he was directly responsible for, and the way the Yankees cater to their fans really impressed me.

Funny you say that. The new Yankee Stadium, with its prohibitively expensive ticket prices, destruction of Macombs Dam Park, and millions and millions in public funding better spent elsewhere in New York, is pretty fan-unfriendly to me.

Aside from the prices, that's all par for the course with new stadiums. Hardly unique to the Big Ballpark in the Bronx.

Interesting on the prices. I know that the good seats are very expensive. But on my aforementioned trip to NYC, I purchased a bleacher seat on the street for $10. It had a $5 face value. I sat in left center and right field was obstructed. The next day, at the Mets game I had box seats in essentially the identical location (left center with obstructed view of right) for $30. I prefer box seats, but the Yankee deal was far better imho.