Next Move Or Expansion

[Sport]

Phoenix Coyotes returning as the Winnipeg Jets

Atlanta Thrashers to Quebec City

...one can only wish though

Why dont you wish for expansion instead of relocation? it isnt fair to wish away a team you jerk!

You're going to get eaten alive here if your argument is that it's mean to want a struggling franchise to move.

The league is already over-expanded so expansion is out of the question. Fans want teams to move to stronger hockey markets so the league will in turn be stronger.

[bosrs1]

Phoenix Coyotes returning as the Winnipeg Jets

Atlanta Thrashers to Quebec City

...one can only wish though

Why dont you wish for expansion instead of relocation? it isnt fair to wish away a team you jerk!

In the Thrasher's case I agree... wishing them to move isn't exactly fair to Atlanta. However turnabout is fair play regarding former Jets fans wishing the Coyotes move back to Winnepeg. After all, they were their team first and frankly IMO they're entitled to wish to have them back, Phoenix be damned (particularly since very few people in Phoenix seem to care they're there in the first place).

[rams80]

Phoenix Coyotes returning as the Winnipeg Jets

Atlanta Thrashers to Quebec City

...one can only wish though

Why dont you wish for expansion instead of relocation? it isnt fair to wish away a team you jerk!

I don't like the thought of pulling the plug on Atlanta either, but if the metaphorical equivalent of nobody shows up to the games, this is an unsustainable problem.

[TFoA]

LA Filmmaker shows interest in buying Thrashers.

"My heart is with Atlanta, being my hometown team," Rollins said. "We're just looking at all the options, talking with various people around the league about teams. I've been keeping my ear out on the situation in Atlanta. I know they're wanting to do something pretty quickly."

Rollins, the head of Lightning Pictures, said he wants to see the Thrashers remain in Atlanta. As an Atlanta resident in the 1990s, he was part of a grass-roots effort to bring the Thrashers to the city as an expansion franchise. He said he remains a fan and often wears his Thrashers jersey to meetings in Los Angeles.

"I don't want to see them leave and I would love to do anything I can as one of the owners," he said. "I want to see that situation be turned around. Atlanta has shown you give them a good product on ice, they'll come out and support the team. I have that firm belief and I've had that conversation with the league."

His name came up last summer as well, so now with the added sense of urgency, there may be something behind this. Man, I hope this guy can deliver.

Also, he nailed it with the part I bolded. The ONE season the Thrashers were any sort of good, they were the hottest ticket in town. The fans will support if the team gives them something to cheer for. The team, from top to bottom, has just been spinning their wheels in the mud for the vast majority of their time here. It's not the market, it's the team. They're no different from any of the other teams here: If the team improves, people will show up. Not like Phoenix where the team improved, & aside from the small pocket of hardcore fans, nobody's showing up. I mean, if the Thrashers were winning & people didn't care, I'd honestly be all for them moving because if you can't even get behind a winning product, you can't expect the game to grow or the organization to even have any sort of chance to succeed. But like I said before, the one measly season where the team won, people supported the team. But they've been handicapped by terrible management almost since Day One, & it's hard to attract fans when the team was only good for one season & for the others. Now with the GM & Coach they have, things seem to finally be on the uptick, & it's a shame that this is coming up now. I don't want them to pull the plug on the city again once the franchise FINALLY gets its together on the ice.

Eh, that's just my opinion on the whole thing. Once again, I hope this Rollins guy can come through.

EDIT: That being said, these mother ers better win tonight against Phoenix. It's "Loser Leaves USA" and we ain't goin.

[DEAD!]

Rest assured people of Atlanta, that I will not suggest the Omni Phillips Arena needs renovating...

[The_Admiral]

Impassioned post from someone who's clearly a real fan, but "we come out big for a winner" won't keep the lights on. The other three pro teams in Atlanta can get away with it because their respective leagues have such rich broadcasting deals and generous revenue sharing that they, especially the Forever .500 Falcons, can float on that alone. In the NHL, you need to make your money by not only putting asses in seats and selling them beer on a nightly basis, but by doing the same for other events you book at your rink. If you can't do that, you're toast. What's particularly worrisome is that Atlanta Spirit is a sports-entertainment conglomerate with the means to extract money from people in many ways on many days, but nevertheless they're taking a bath on this Thrashers thing. What more can they do? You can't bank on being a perennially competitive team unless you're the Red Wings, who exist in a financial universe altogether separate from the rest of the league. I don't see NHL hockey working in Atlanta. AHL in the suburbs, totally, but at the highest level, there's just not enough money circulating to keep it going.

[Drakonius26]

Impassioned post from someone who's clearly a real fan, but "we come out big for a winner" won't keep the lights on. The other three pro teams in Atlanta can get away with it because their respective leagues have such rich broadcasting deals and generous revenue sharing that they, especially the Forever .500 Falcons, can float on that alone. In the NHL, you need to make your money by not only putting asses in seats and selling them beer on a nightly basis, but by doing the same for other events you book at your rink. If you can't do that, you're toast. What's particularly worrisome is that Atlanta Spirit is a sports-entertainment conglomerate with the means to extract money from people in many ways on many days, but nevertheless they're taking a bath on this Thrashers thing. What more can they do? You can't bank on being a perennially competitive team unless you're the Red Wings, who exist in a financial universe altogether separate from the rest of the league. I don't see NHL hockey working in Atlanta. AHL in the suburbs, totally, but at the highest level, there's just not enough money circulating to keep it going.

That line right there should prove to you that a professional sports team, no matter what the sport is, can't survive in said market long-term (and never should've been considered in the first place), because it's impossible for a team (even the Red Wings), to say competitive all the time. Look at the New York Yankees, they had good, but never great teams in the 1980's. They got close to a World Series appearance, but never broke through to the championship round. That should tell you that it's impossible to maintain a high level of quality year after year, decade after decade, in any sport.

[The_Admiral]

But it can, though, when you and your fellow owners split some $10 billion in TV money. The Jaguars are a mediocre enterprise in a mediocre city, but they get fat enough off leaguewide TV deals that their owner will never have to throw the keys on the commissioner's desk and say "I can't do this anymore." This happens all too often in the NHL.

[JMROWE]

Phoenix Coyotes returning as the Winnipeg Jets

Atlanta Thrashers to Quebec City

...one can only wish though

Why dont you wish for expansion instead of relocation? it isnt fair to wish away a team you jerk!

I am glad to see that someone who actully cares about the Thrashers in Atlanta but unfortunately there is not as many people in Atlanta that share the same love for the thrashers as you do . The fact is that teams in Atlanta , Phoenix , Florida are bleding millions of dollars & are playing in front of half filled arenas every night some times even quarter filled arenas it seems quite clear no one care about theses teams in theses markets except for a small majority of fans like yourself . In my opinion what the NHL. needs to do is cut the dead weight & relocate theses franchise to stronger hockey markets like Winnipeg , Hamilton , Quebec City , Portland , Seattle , Kansas City ect. so they can recover there there losses & start the journey back to respectability .

[The_Admiral]

I'll assist you with economics, demographics, and the NBA CBA, I can left click on my netbook, when I feel like it. You are not good enough here for me to worry about that and your edits.

So this happened. It's like Steve Forbes cut a wrestling promo.

[TFoA]

Well, nobody's saying that winning is the cure all in the situation, especially with the cash woes that this team is going through. It'd be riduclous to think that the Thrashers would become the Red Wings overnight. The team just needs to be in the hunt for a playoff spot or actually in the playoff spot for more than one season. I know this is going to sound REALLY hokey, but hope goes a long way. There's been many season where the team was out of the hunt by Christmas & by that point, it was just an attraction for the other team's fans. No marquee players (other than that one year where they had Kovalchuk, Hossa, & Heatley among others), bad management, terrible money management (the one year they spent money on players, naturally, they sucked all sorts of ass.) I'm just saying that the franchise has been so obviously handicapped from day one with terrible mismanagement & just no indication of there being a light at the end of the tunnel. The problem here is not the market. The problem is the people who ran here. I'm just saying that it'd be a bit too early to pull the plug on the team if the team itself hasn't had a shot to even attract since it keeps shooting itself in the foot. I'd totally understand if they moved (the team's losing money like crazy & the Atlanta Spirit guys are going to get out as soon as they can), but I still think it would be a bad move, IMO. Can't give up on one of the larger media markets in the league when all the team's top men have done is fall over its own clumsy ass. Get some folks in here who can actually walk the walk when it comes to competently running an NHL franchise, and we'll see what happens.

Eh, I'm a noob when it comes to the relocation talk, I'm not a pro when it comes to REEL LINE MINT like most of the guys in this thread, so apologies if this is coming off a bit as ignorant or more like me saying "PPLLLLEEEEEZZZZ I BEG UUUUUUUUU LET THEM HAVE JUST ONE MORE CHANCE." But seriously, give em one more chance.

[Drakonius26]

But it can, though, when you and your fellow owners split some $10 billion in TV money. The Jaguars are a mediocre enterprise in a mediocre city, but they get fat enough off leaguewide TV deals that their owner will never have to throw the keys on the commissioner's desk and say "I can't do this anymore." This happens all too often in the NHL.

Which is my only complaint about revenue sharing. I hate how teams like the Jacksonville Jaguars or Pittsburgh Pirates can abuse the system and almost never field a championship-caliber team.

As for "Steve Forbes," the funny thing is, I didn't edit his post. I just thought I'd let him know that he spelled his name wrong, since he knows so much more than me.

[The_Admiral]

Heatley was traded for Hossa. He was already up in Ottawa by the time the Thrashers made that playoff appearance. But your point stands that they did well for themselves in 2007.

Unfortunately, I think any discussion of Atlanta sports woes has to include the unique challenges of running a team in Atlanta. God knows the Braves, Falcons, and Hawks aren't immune. As long as it's prohibitively difficult to get downtown and lots of people in Atlanta aren't from and of Atlanta, pro teams will struggle. The Thrashers just have the worst of it.

[rams80]

But it can, though, when you and your fellow owners split some $10 billion in TV money. The Jaguars are a mediocre enterprise in a mediocre city, but they get fat enough off leaguewide TV deals that their owner will never have to throw the keys on the commissioner's desk and say "I can't do this anymore." This happens all too often in the NHL.

Which is my only complaint about revenue sharing. I hate how teams like the Jacksonville Jaguars or Pittsburgh Pirates can abuse the system and almost never field a championship-caliber team.

As for "Steve Forbes," the funny thing is, I didn't edit his post. I just thought I'd let him know that he spelled his name wrong, since he knows so much more than me.

To be fair, the Jaguars do field decent teams typically.

[Drakonius26]

That's the same problem with Denver sports in general. Despite the Broncos having solid support, every team in Colorado is susceptible to that same issue with the amount of transplants they have there.

[Gothamite]

But it can, though, when you and your fellow owners split some $10 billion in TV money. The Jaguars are a mediocre enterprise in a mediocre city, but they get fat enough off leaguewide TV deals that their owner will never have to throw the keys on the commissioner's desk and say "I can't do this anymore." This happens all too often in the NHL.

Which is my only complaint about revenue sharing. I hate how teams like the Jacksonville Jaguars or Pittsburgh Pirates can abuse the system and almost never field a championship-caliber team.

As for "Steve Forbes," the funny thing is, I didn't edit his post. I just thought I'd let him know that he spelled his name wrong, since he knows so much more than me.

To be fair, the Jaguars do field decent teams typically.

True enough. Shame that the city didn't care.

They were in the playoff hunt into December, and still had to play before rows and rows of empty seats.

As shameful as "we come out big for a winner" is, not coming out for a team in contention is even worse.

[TFoA]

Heatley was traded for Hossa. He was already up in Ottawa by the time the Thrashers made that playoff appearance. But your point stands that they did well for themselves in 2007.

Unfortunately, I think any discussion of Atlanta sports woes has to include the unique challenges of running a team in Atlanta. God knows the Braves, Falcons, and Hawks aren't immune. As long as it's prohibitively difficult to get downtown and lots of people in Atlanta aren't from and of Atlanta, pro teams will struggle. The Thrashers just have the worst of it.

Exactly (and thanks for catching the Hossa/Heatley mistake). The Falcons have realized this & are trying to move to the suburbs in an outdoors stadium (I'm assuming this is gonna be a retractable roof deal. Not sure the locals wanna go back to the Fulton County Stadium days, especially with this wild-ass winter we just had.). There's a chance that the other two teams will start drawing big (people have stopped taking the Braves being good for granted, & the Hawks...well, you got me there. ), but you are definitely right when the Thrashers have the worst of it. Ideally, it'd be awesome if they could move to Gwinnett, but the arena there is way too small. It's just an odd situation for them, and if they can find a way to stay, they'd have to make lemonade out of the lemons they've been given as far as location & fanbase is concerned.

I think & hope that they could continue to stay here, but I'd totally understand if they were to leave. What a Situation (no Jersey Shore. I think I just told on myself here.).

[FiddySicks]

I still feel that of all the likely spots to get an MLB team, somehow Sacramento is going to find a way to pull it off. Not so much because it's the most prime location available, but because it's easily the most feasible. Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte, San Antonio, and even Vancouver are probably better spots for a pro baseball club. But considering how easy the move would be and that the Giants have a stranglehold over the San Jose market, The A's to Sacramento could be a quick and relatively inexpensive move.

Problem Sac has is that they can't even get an arena built for their current team. And can't support their current team with only 14k a game going to the Kings currently. There's no way they'd be able to support an MLB team as well as other options.

For what it's worth, the RiverCats' stadium in Sacto is expandable to MLB-size and quality and they draw pretty well IIRC. I think they'll lose the Kings but gain the Athletics. Just a hunch though.

Actually that's a common misconception. Raley Field is in fact NOT expandable to MLB size. The original plan did call for it to be expandable but due to a strike during construction they had to modify the design and now it is not capable of supporting an MLB sized stadium on the current supports and foundation. Nor would you want to anyway. The area around Raley would need MAJOR modification itself to support crowds bigger than it gets now particularly when it comes to access, not to mention the field design would never pass muster as an MLB field. The stands are far too close to the field. If Sac is ever going to get an MLB team it would be in a completely new stadium from the ground up. Which means Sac would need to come up with $500+ million and a site in addition to the money they can't seem to raise for the Kings arena.

I've heard it both ways, actually. I've heard that Raley Field would have foundation issues, I've heard there are ways they could circumvent those issues relatively easily. And you are correct, the area around Raley Field would need some pretty serious modifications, but one of the best parts about the area. It's empty space just past downtown within walking distance of the train station, it has great freeway access, and is an easy drive to the airport. Why the Kings didn't gun for that spot is beyond me. But their time in Sacramento is coming to a close fairly soon IMO. And once they leave, if the A's haven't moved to San Jose yet, Sacramento might be where they pack up and move to.

Problem Sac has though is the same issue Oakland has currently. No public money for the stadium, which means the owners would have to want to build there 100% privately, which they don't want to. And on top of that there is not sufficient corporate cash to make the move worth it.

Oh yeah it certainly wouldn't be a straight move, but the nice thing about it is that if they were able to just renovate Raley Field it would almost certainly be cheaper than building a new park from the ground up, if they can deal with those foundation issues. Corporate cash I'm not really sure about because I just don't know enough about it, but I would assume that a team in the capital of one of the largest states in the country economically would be able to work it out. And the renovation thing is interesting as well as a bit confusing and conflicting. There are many reports that the place wasn't built to be expanded upon, but just outside of the main entrance is a huge poster of blue prints that show just how the park can be expanded upon very easily. I really need to get a snap shot of that next time I'm at a game.

But mostly, an MLB team to Sacramento is kinda my personal pipe dream. I keep pushing for it, and I think it'd make perfect sense, but what do I really know about the business of relocating a pro baseball team? Overall, I know it's quite the long shot

[The_Admiral]

Isn't there a half-finished baseball stadium by Arco Arena? What, if anything, could be done with that?

EDIT: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=ARCO+Arena,&aq=0&sll=38.652003,-121.517758&sspn=0.009317,0.022638&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=zi&radius=0.73&split=1&t=h&hq=ARCO+Arena,&hnear=&ll=38.650394,-121.517286&spn=0.009317,0.022638&z=16

More than Fremont ever got done.

[dfwabel]

Isn't there a half-finished baseball stadium by Arco Arena? What, if anything, could be done with that?

EDIT: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=ARCO+Arena,&aq=0&sll=38.652003,-121.517758&sspn=0.009317,0.022638&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=zi&radius=0.73&split=1&t=h&hq=ARCO+Arena,&hnear=&ll=38.650394,-121.517286&spn=0.009317,0.022638&z=16

More than Fremont ever got done.

That foundation is over 20 years old.

Scroll down on this page to get the back story on that proposed stadium.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=158300&page=3

2002 story on the plot's lack of development