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11 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Looks like an updated Nine Nations of North America, but with New England and the Foundry merged and Dixie split. I can get behind the argument because I know Michigan and Wisconsin have some deep Yankee roots below the European heritage we associate with that part of the country, but I still see New England as a discrete entity that ends more or less where the maps say it does.

 

As for the book, pretty much.

 

As for New England, I'd tend to agree as well - the Connecticut panhandle is unquestionably part of the NYC metro, but we're talking 1/3 or less of an already tiny state. This is the definition of hair-splitting. And northern Maine might as well be New Brunswick... but there's nobody there for us to tell this news to. So... yeah.

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7 minutes ago, kroywen said:

Going with just "Northeast Corridor" here because I'm not sure how the hell to treat Upstate NY in this. (Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester are arguably all more midwestern than northeastern, like Pittsburgh, IMO.)

 

Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester, etc. are definitely more "Rust Belt" (a la Pittsburgh) than "Northeastern"... but we're on that "transition zone between regions" thing again.

 

We're also woefully off-course from the thread topic, but I'm obviously enjoying this conversation.

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19 minutes ago, sc49erfan15 said:

 

As for the book, pretty much.

 

As for New England, I'd tend to agree as well - the Connecticut panhandle is unquestionably part of the NYC metro, but we're talking 1/3 or less of an already tiny state. This is the definition of hair-splitting. And northern Maine might as well be New Brunswick... but there's nobody there for us to tell this news to. So... yeah.

 

In fairness, that 1/3 of a tiny state holds the majority of its population. ;) (Having grown up in that very part of Connecticut.)

 

But yeah, New England, outside of Fairfield/NH Counties, is probably the most distinct, easy-to-define region in the country. I know sometimes it gets grouped in with the Rust Belt (because of a few post-industrial small cities, I suppose), but it's a very different place from the Rust Belt. I'd have to argue to keep it as its own defined region (as well as being a sub-region of the Northeast).

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Isn't New England distinct from the rest of the country in terms of how powerful town/city governments are and how participatory most of them are (in contrast to the Good Government council-manager system most of the country has)?

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1 hour ago, kroywen said:

 

I think it's fair to say that NYC is a sub-region of the Northeast (a la New England). If I had to divide the Northeast Corridor out into sub-regions, I'd probably divide it as follows:

  • New England (minus southwestern CT)
  • Tri-State Area (downstate NY/North Jersey/southwestern CT)
  • Delaware Valley/Eastern PA
  • DC/Baltimore/Richmond

Going with just "Northeast Corridor" here because I'm not sure how the hell to treat Upstate NY in this. (Buffalo, Syracuse, and Rochester are arguably all more midwestern than northeastern, like Pittsburgh, IMO.)

 

As for the "Mid-Atlantic"? Conservatively, it's probably just MD/DE/VA/DC. More broadly, I've heard NY, NJ, and PA included as well, at which point it pretty much means "anything in the Northeast that's not New England."

Everything I've ever heard(living in NY/PA, and now as a Virginian)

 

PA is mid-Atlantic for sure, taken as a whole state. NY is, but it also fully northeastern. 

PIT is more Midwestern for sure though, but also might exemplify mid Atlantic as well. 

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50 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Isn't New England distinct from the rest of the country in terms of how powerful town/city governments are and how participatory most of them are (in contrast to the Good Government council-manager system most of the country has)?

 

It is. The strong town/city governments persist throughout all of New England, and a few New England states don't even have county governments at all (those that do have incredibly weak county governments, largely in name only).

 

To this day, town councils in New England tend to be quite large and virtually always unpaid positions. (Which leads to an interesting trivia fact: the Greenwich, CT, Reprensentative Town Meeting is actually the third largest legislative body in the Untied States, with 230 members - behind only the US House of Representatives and the lower house in New Hampshire).

 

Like the rest of the Northeast, New England also tends to have strong mayors (and no city managers or the like).

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this is why relying on antiquated state lines just doesn't work, and even referring to "states" when doing exercises like this doesn't work.  NYC and most of the rest of NY, especially Buffalo, are so different it's hard to lump Buffalo into any category that NYC qualifies for, and vice versa.  Mostly same with Phila and the rest of the state.  I'd say outside of the Delaware/Lehigh valleys, the rest of the state shares more in common with Pittsburgh than Phila (hence why from a geographic standpoint, most of the state is Pirates / Steelers fans.)  I don't know if I'd call Pittsburgh "midwest" like I"ve heard here.  At one time I thought that, then I experienced the midwest and it's definitely not like that.  I think rust belt / great lakes is fair, but mid-atlantic is a huge stretch, and northeast doesn't work at all.

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On the topic of antiquated non-state lines, Deadspin had a whole piece a couple weeks ago about how people in Berkshire County MA (the westernmost one) can't watch Patriots games because they're considered part of the Albany DMA, which usually gets Jets or Bills games instead. I guess it's a problem in more than sports in that Albany media ignores the Berkshires for obvious reasons but Springfield and Hartford-New Haven media don't really keep up on them either.

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3 hours ago, sc49erfan15 said:

 

Buffalo, Syracuse, Rochester, etc. are definitely more "Rust Belt" (a la Pittsburgh) than "Northeastern"... but we're on that "transition zone between regions" thing again.

 

We're also woefully off-course from the thread topic, but I'm obviously enjoying this conversation.

Yeah, Upstate NY becomes a really weird one to define. I would say the Northeast/Midwest split starts... Seneca Falls or thereabouts? Or I-390 as the dividing line? Anything on the Erie Canal west of Albany (Schenectady onwards) fits into the "Rust Belt", but I feel like in my time up there Syracuse felt like the last Northeastern-ish city and Rochester the first Midwestern-ish city if that makes any sense. Like on the Thruway you get that Midwestern vibe once you get past the Seneca Lake exits.

 

Also that Eleven Nations thing looks interesting, but I'm not sure how Suffolk County would be Yankeedom rather than New Amsterdam, because even though it gets rural I feel like it's a bit more in common with the region than Orange and Putnam, though more on that in a second.

 

Now if we're really splitting hairs, I kind of have a NYC area definition all to my own. The map I made got wiped out in the Photobucket Purge of 2017, but essentially is this

EAST: Fairfield County line, but then I do a little bit of an extreme by cutting it off at the William Floyd Parkway. I feel like the nexus of the forks and the east end is more Riverhead than NYC and gets real rural there. I can also consider an eastward extension to the end of Sunrise Highway as an expressway in Hampton Bays on the South Fork, but anything east of the Boardy Barn on the South or east of Riverhead on the North is pushing it for me

NORTH: ...but then again I get real weird to the north. I basically use the I-84 corridor as my guide, with a little jump north to Poughkeepsie with the Metro North line. The northwest corner is the I-84/I-86-NY-17 interchange

WEST: For North Jersey draw a line between the Delaware River and I-287 until you hit the Delaware River in Hunterdon County.

SOUTH: Gets real messy in a hurry. Lawrenceville is my NYC/Philly divide to start in Mercer County. Princeton's NYC, Trenton's Philly. Then it juts down to the traditional I-195 divide. But then before the Garden State Parkway, it shoots down in the Jersey Shore because Asbury Park/Brick/Tom's River/Seaside, although being almost due east of Philly, is due south of NYC and still within the media market and all and still within the New York influence. The line stops south of Seaside.

 

(/awaits the NYC people here to stomp me out for this suggestion)

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also in what will probably cause some disagreements with the last post's definition of the NYC area but whatever, while we're on the topic of how there's zero way to put all of New York State altogether, here's a map where I kind of bundle up some of the regions together in a Six Nations of New York or such

v3xajyp.png

1- Blue- NYC area

2- Green- Hudson River Valley/Catskills. I feel that the two areas are more similar in common than other regions are

3- Purple- Adirondacks

4- Orange- Central NY

5- Yellow- Western NY

6- Light green- Southern Tier

 

Now you can make the case with the Southern Tier that Schuyler and Chemung on west would fit into WNY and Tioga and Broome more with the Catskills/Hudson Valley, but it also has that Pennsylvania feel to it.

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Page 3 of this thread has gotten "The Lady Came from Baltimore" by Scott Walker stuck in my head like a Milk Dud in a molar, a problem that I'm pretty sure only I am having.

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6 hours ago, sc49erfan15 said:

Yeah, I think we're already at an urban/rural divide moreso than "heading toward" one.

 

 

We definitely have that divide here in Virginia.  Rural areas vote Red.  Our cities (which are independent from our counties) and the majority of the most populated counties vote Blue consistently.  I live in Chesterfield (a suburb of Richmond), one of the very few high population counties that still consistently goes Red, but the margins of victory are slowly getting smaller of late.

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To chime in on the urban/rural thing, you see it even in "deep blue" NYS. Large chunks (by area) are red, balanced out by densely-populated blue cities. I'd have a hard time coming up with any real "nations", assuming we mean that to be some kind of homogeneous group. It's like a fractal; every time you zoom in, you see the same pattern repeating itself.

 

2016 Presidential election:

350px-New_York_Presidential_Election_Res

Even the landslide (Obama won NY by almost 30 points) 2008 election had healthy pockets of red:

Spoiler

440px-New_york_presidential_results_2008

But you can say, "Hey, at least there's that big blue county over on the left where Buffalo is!" Except, when you zoom in... (sorry for no embed-able picture)

http://projects.buffalonews.com/elections/2016/analysis/2012-2016.html

 

It's really just the city, a portion of the first-ring suburbs, and some tiny artisanal locavore villages out in the sticks.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, RyanMcD29 said:

Yeah, Upstate NY becomes a really weird one to define. I would say the Northeast/Midwest split starts... Seneca Falls or thereabouts? Or I-390 as the dividing line? Anything on the Erie Canal west of Albany (Schenectady onwards) fits into the "Rust Belt", but I feel like in my time up there Syracuse felt like the last Northeastern-ish city and Rochester the first Midwestern-ish city if that makes any sense. Like on the Thruway you get that Midwestern vibe once you get past the Seneca Lake exits.

 

Also that Eleven Nations thing looks interesting, but I'm not sure how Suffolk County would be Yankeedom rather than New Amsterdam, because even though it gets rural I feel like it's a bit more in common with the region than Orange and Putnam, though more on that in a second.

 

Now if we're really splitting hairs, I kind of have a NYC area definition all to my own. The map I made got wiped out in the Photobucket Purge of 2017, but essentially is this

EAST: Fairfield County line, but then I do a little bit of an extreme by cutting it off at the William Floyd Parkway. I feel like the nexus of the forks and the east end is more Riverhead than NYC and gets real rural there. I can also consider an eastward extension to the end of Sunrise Highway as an expressway in Hampton Bays on the South Fork, but anything east of the Boardy Barn on the South or east of Riverhead on the North is pushing it for me 

NORTH: ...but then again I get real weird to the north. I basically use the I-84 corridor as my guide, with a little jump north to Poughkeepsie with the Metro North line. The northwest corner is the I-84/I-86-NY-17 interchange

WEST: For North Jersey draw a line between the Delaware River and I-287 until you hit the Delaware River in Hunterdon County.

SOUTH: Gets real messy in a hurry. Lawrenceville is my NYC/Philly divide to start in Mercer County. Princeton's NYC, Trenton's Philly. Then it juts down to the traditional I-195 divide. But then before the Garden State Parkway, it shoots down in the Jersey Shore because Asbury Park/Brick/Tom's River/Seaside, although being almost due east of Philly, is due south of NYC and still within the media market and all and still within the New York influence. The line stops south of Seaside.

 

(/awaits the NYC people here to stomp me out for this suggestion)

 

I think your North and South and pretty accurate, but would go a little further on the East boundary. Long Island, as a whole, is part of the NYC area, to me. It does start getting super rural as you get out toward Riverhead, but the forks are extremely enmeshed with NYC (being, in large part, a summer resort for New Yorkers). Much of the 'culture' of NYC transplants itself out to the Hamptons every weekend in the summer, so it feels very 'NYC area' to me.

 

Also would include New Haven County in the NYC area - New Haven starts displaying obvious New England influence more than Bridgeport, Stamford, etc., but it's very well connected with NYC (both literally and culturally), and I think its residents have much more of a cultural affinity with NYC than with Boston (or any other New England city). I think you can make the argument, within Connecticut at least, that the 'NYC area' is wherever New York sports fans noticeably outnumber Boston sports fans. That's not the case around Hartford (which is pretty well split down the middle), but New Haven is overwhelmingly New York fans.

 

I-84 has always been my unofficial boundary between Upstate and Downstate, so I completely agree with that. To the south, I think I've used the historic Keith Line between East Jersey and West Jersey as the boundary between Philly and NYC, with Trenton either in some sort of limbo, or marginally attached to NYC. Judging on a line in that Wikipedia article, looks like I'm not the only one to think of that as an unofficial boundary.

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16 hours ago, the admiral said:

Well, the Jim Crockett Promotions/Atlantic Coast Conference definition of Mid-Atlantic was South Carolina to Maryland, but South Carolina cannot be anything but the Southiest of the South. 

 

The Philadelphia accent has a little touch of Balmer Merlin/Annirunnel Canny accent in it. Maybe it's not far-fetched.

 

Very well translated.  Have you spent time in Dundalk . . . sorry, Dundahk?

 

15 hours ago, sc49erfan15 said:

 

I think the accent is certainly closer to Baltimore than NYC. Personally, I think the greater NYC area is defined and populous enough to be considered a region unto itself. NYC is certainly not New England, but it's distinct enough from Philly/Baltimore/DC that I can't put it in the same region.

 

Of course, these regions are all pretty much arbitrary and that's kinda the point. 

 

I would agree with this.  The Bawlmer and Philly accents are both pretty nasal.

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Wait is Pittsburgh almost Ohio valley? Almost but not quite, right?

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On 1/16/2018 at 8:01 AM, kroywen said:

 

I think your North and South and pretty accurate, but would go a little further on the East boundary. Long Island, as a whole, is part of the NYC area, to me. It does start getting super rural as you get out toward Riverhead, but the forks are extremely enmeshed with NYC (being, in large part, a summer resort for New Yorkers). Much of the 'culture' of NYC transplants itself out to the Hamptons every weekend in the summer, so it feels very 'NYC area' to me.

 

Also would include New Haven County in the NYC area - New Haven starts displaying obvious New England influence more than Bridgeport, Stamford, etc., but it's very well connected with NYC (both literally and culturally), and I think its residents have much more of a cultural affinity with NYC than with Boston (or any other New England city). I think you can make the argument, within Connecticut at least, that the 'NYC area' is wherever New York sports fans noticeably outnumber Boston sports fans. That's not the case around Hartford (which is pretty well split down the middle), but New Haven is overwhelmingly New York fans.

 

I-84 has always been my unofficial boundary between Upstate and Downstate, so I completely agree with that. To the south, I think I've used the historic Keith Line between East Jersey and West Jersey as the boundary between Philly and NYC, with Trenton either in some sort of limbo, or marginally attached to NYC. Judging on a line in that Wikipedia article, looks like I'm not the only one to think of that as an unofficial boundary.

 

Trenton city is in limbo, but Hamilton township around it is philly. My dad grew up in Trenton and it was more New York then, but that’s definitely shifted some since then.  The south beaches (from AC south) are def philly. LBI is philly. Asbury park, seaside heights, etc are probably NY, but if so not by much. Princeton is kinda it’s own thing, not sure I’d say one or the other. Prob NY if had to pick. 

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18 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Trenton city is in limbo, but Hamilton township around it is philly. My dad grew up in Trenton and it was more New York then, but that’s definitely shifted some since then.  The south beaches (from AC south) are def philly. LBI is philly. Asbury park, seaside heights, etc are probably NY, but if so not by much. Princeton is kinda it’s own thing, not sure I’d say one or the other. Prob NY if had to pick. 

 

Are you sure about LBI?  I had two fraternity brothers who were Harvey Cedars lifeguards and they were very much North Jersey guys.

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23 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Trenton city is in limbo, but Hamilton township around it is philly. My dad grew up in Trenton and it was more New York then, but that’s definitely shifted some since then.  The south beaches (from AC south) are def philly. LBI is philly. Asbury park, seaside heights, etc are probably NY, but if so not by much. Princeton is kinda it’s own thing, not sure I’d say one or the other. Prob NY if had to pick. 

 

Trenton and Princeton are tough ones (all of Mercer County is, really) - they're definitely a Hartford-esque hybrid of NYC and Philly, though I'd say Princeton definitely leans toward NYC.

 

The northern part of the Jersey Shore - anything north of Manasquan/Point Pleasant, perhaps? - is definitely NYC. It's predominantly folks from New York and North Jersey who vacation there, and the residents are more tied to NYC than Philly. Anecdotal example, I've met quite a few people who live on the Jersey Shore who come up to NYC to hang out all the time (or to work, even). The two areas are very well enmeshed with one another.

 

Anything Atlantic City or beyond is definitely Philly. The area of the shore between Point Pleasant and AC is tough the define - some sort of shared/hybrid area between the two metropolitan areas. I'd say Toms River and Seaside Heights strike me as leaning toward NYC, while LBI strikes me as leaning toward Philly. The folks I know from South Jersey tend to only go to LBI and points south when they want to go to the shore, FWIW.

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