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Chief Wahoo Departs: Indians remove logo from brand in 2019

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26 minutes ago, andrewharrington said:

Do you think 3.7 million is all the money Dan Snyder makes from the name and logo of his team? Personally, I don’t think it’s appropriate to pocket any money from the imagery of another culture. We’re simply beyond that as a species. We can travel to see other cultures, we can research them, we can honor them by helping them in tangible ways.

What I find curious is all the people who deem to speak on behalf of a group outside their own when that same group has a voice and predominantly chooses not to use it themselves with a few exceptions. 
 

I go back to the question I asked before, "How does one determine the price tag for it no longer to be a problem?"   Who gets to decide the price?  How much of a societal problem is it really when it can be simply bought off?

Well, I wasn't really offended before, but if you're telling me there's big money in it, then, yeah, I am offended, now that you mentioned it.  Money is really the driving motivation on both sides, isn't it?  Does anyone think Cleveland's move was altruistic or was it that MLB was threatening them behind the scenes?

Speaking as someone who was a Redskins fan, I wish they'd lose the name if only to put an end to the discussion. 

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1 hour ago, Bill81361 said:

The origin of the name "Indians" was based on a former player named Louis Sockalexis, but I bet you knew that.

 

No, it wasn't.  That's a story which was created decades later.  But I bet you knew that.

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10 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

No, it wasn't.  That's a story which was created decades later.  But I bet you knew that.

 

This this this this this.

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It was time for him to go. I never really liked the logo. While it is very bland, the C is a good logo and much better for the Indians. 

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16 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

No, it wasn't.  That's a story which was created decades later.  But I bet you knew that.

That was probably the best read I've had regarding the name. 

 

It's about time that the logo is dropped.  It's a snippet from that article but you can see why the name was chosen.  it made good headlines. it made good cartoons.  Hell, Chief Wahoo looks cartoonish.  Doesn't make it any better. Had they maybe adopted something along the lines of what the Braves had in Boston with the more realistic head we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Similar to how people aren't really put off that much by the Redskins logo or the Blackhawks logo.  But the goofy caricature with the (as my father used to describe it) sh!t-eating grin on its face is blatantly racist. 

 

Constantly it comes up with the "MUH TRADITION!!!" and the "I don't see anything wrong with it" issues.  It's because you bought into it.  You have some level of investment, either emotionally or financially, that deep down it can't be understood that you've been flaunting and purchasing and supporting something that takes the visage of an entire race and appropriates it for financial gain. 

 

Money is the cause for all of this.  It's extremely likely this is only happening not because the owners want to do the "right thing", but because there's pressure from MLB as a whole. It's won't happen with the Redskins until NFL flexes its muscles...which likely won't happen. 

 

This is long overdue.  The name is in that hazy gray area where it's both somewhat offensive due to being a misnomer, and not really as many Native Americans have embraced it in more of a "that's what everyone knows us as" kind of way. I do hope they work with some sort of group that doesn't make them become completely bland and devoid of any sort of identity.  There can be some native elements in it that isn't racist or a caricature of an entire people.  I think the feather is the way to go.

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12 hours ago, coco1997 said:

If Cleveland ever re-adopts the Spiders nickname...

 

cleveland-spiders.jpg?w=600

 

I’d love for the Spiders name to return to Cleveland, but they are not in the Indians team lineage. The Spiders were an NL team totally separate from the Naps/Indians.

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1 hour ago, andrewharrington said:

 

Of course. I’d rather do away with them, but people are going to continue to insist that this practice is okay, probably for decades. Philosophically, though, all I’m saying is that if you think it’s okay to use another culture as a profit device, you should be prepared to to hand that money to the people of that culture.

 

I also think there are ways to do this respectfully and in a mutually beneficial way. Florida State is a decent example.

Universities that are named after specific tribes are probably at an advantage in terms of being able to work with the tribe. General terms like Indians and Braves make that more logistically difficult.

 

I'm surprised that some of Florida State's imagery and antics are embraced, to be honest, but if they really are working with the tribe, then who I am to make a stink?  It does make a difference to me if a team is working with a tribe as opposed to white people just displaying their impression rooted as much in stereotype as reality.

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2 minutes ago, Pharos04 said:

That was probably the best read I've had regarding the name. 

 

It's about time that the logo is dropped.  It's a snippet from that article but you can see why the name was chosen.  it made good headlines. it made good cartoons.  Hell, Chief Wahoo looks cartoonish.  Doesn't make it any better. Had they maybe adopted something along the lines of what the Braves had in Boston with the more realistic head we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Similar to how people aren't really put off that much by the Redskins logo or the Blackhawks logo.  But the goofy caricature with the (as my father used to describe it) sh!t-eating grin on its face is blatantly racist. 

 

Constantly it comes up with the "MUH TRADITION!!!" and the "I don't see anything wrong with it" issues.  It's because you bought into it.  You have some level of investment, either emotionally or financially, that deep down it can't be understood that you've been flaunting and purchasing and supporting something that takes the visage of an entire race and appropriates it for financial gain. 

 

Money is the cause for all of this.  It's extremely likely this is only happening not because the owners want to do the "right thing", but because there's pressure from MLB as a whole. It's won't happen with the Redskins until NFL flexes its muscles...which likely won't happen. 

 

This is long overdue.  The name is in that hazy gray area where it's both somewhat offensive due to being a misnomer, and not really as many Native Americans have embraced it in more of a "that's what everyone knows us as" kind of way. I do hope they work with some sort of group that doesn't make them become completely bland and devoid of any sort of identity.  There can be some native elements in it that isn't racist or a caricature of an entire people.  I think the feather is the way to go.

https://sports.theonion.com/cleveland-indians-owner-admits-chief-wahoo-no-longer-co-1822530608

 

I do think MLB had a lot to do with this.  I've had a sense that MLB/Manfred has wanted to get rid of that logo for a while and keeping the logo intact while off the field is probably a compromise.  So any cynical jab at the franchise not doing this because it's the right thing to do is probably on the money.  I do not think the NFL is interested in flexing muscle on this issue.  Probably because the Redskins name has a lot more "tradition" than Wahoo.  Wahoo's been up and down in terms of how much its been used.  There have been "C" hats at various times.  The Redskins name is going to be harder for fans to part with.  The team name is the primary part of its identity.  As much as I don't like the name and think it's time to change, even I would find it odd see a different name. It would be a bigger adjustment than Wahoo being gone.  While some fans in Cleveland will be upset, it's not as big of a thing nationally as the name of a team that's been around that long.

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^not that it should matter, but it probably does for some people - Wahoo in the form he's taken since 1951 has won zero World Series titles so it's not like it's tied to any great success. The "Washington Redskins" on the other hand are one of the oldest and history-rich teams in sports with championships recent enough for people younger than 40 to remember. That's gonna be a bitch to get changed unless the right woke billionaire makes Daniel Snyder an offer he can't refuse. Also the NFL is the slowest moving league in terms of social awareness. Adam Silver would've had it changed 2 years ago if they were an NBA team. 

 

2 hours ago, oldschoolvikings said:

I was in grad school at Eastern Michigan in the early 90's when they went from "Hurons" to "Eagles" and for a few years after that you'd occasionally see some really crappy looking "I'm still Huron!!" bootleg T-shirts.  After a while they just sort of dried up and disappeared.

 

When the Miami president changed from Redskins to Redhawks in the 90's it was incredibly unpopular, lots of donors were upset and there was a lot of that "I'm a Redskin, damnit!" stuff going on too. Guess what, though? People got over it and moved on. Most people would say now that it was definitely the right move and you now have multiple generations of students who never knew their school mascot was at one point a slur. Nobody even thinks about it anymore. That's why you can't leave these issues up to a vote. Last time I was there they were still selling redskins gear in the book store, though, and that rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

Universities that are named after specific tribes are probably at an advantage in terms of being able to work with the tribe. General terms like Indians and Braves make that more logistically difficult.

 

I'm surprised that some of Florida State's imagery and antics are embraced, to be honest, but if they really are working with the tribe, then who I am to make a stink?  It does make a difference to me if a team is working with a tribe as opposed to white people just displaying their impression rooted as much in stereotype as reality.

 

Absolutely.  I think that makes all the difference.  License the intellectual property, get permission from the tribe, and ditch the things they're not okay with.

 

Obviously, this is easier when you're borrowing the IP of a specific tribe, like the Seminoles or Sioux.  Using the generic "Indians" means there's not a natural partner, but that doesn't excuse them from at least trying to work with any group(s) with ties to the area. 

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2 hours ago, Bill81361 said:

  The origin of the name "Indians" was based on a former player named Louis Sockalexis, but I bet you knew that. 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

No, it wasn't.  That's a story which was created decades later.  But I bet you knew that.

 

 

mic-drop-2boom.jpg

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2 hours ago, Bill81361 said:

  It's OK for European Americans to use stereotypes of other European Americans?  If an owner were to use what would now be a derogatory term for Jews, Polish, Italians etc. that would be fine because they aren't dispossessed people

 

And also...

 

what?

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11 hours ago, andrewharrington said:

 

I definitely get the sentiment, but just as a team can’t snap its fingers two months before the season and change uniforms, it also can’t just abandon major pieces of its identity without notice. There are probably hundreds of thousands of pieces sitting in back rooms of retail stores, waiting for the start of the 2018 season, that would need to be destroyed, which would be a colossal waste.

 

What I find disappointing is that they feel the need to maintain the trademark. Let it go.

 

But like... They've had decades to prepare for a change like this. Everyone saw them downgrade Wahoo 4 years ago. Everyone has been waiting for them to retire him. Why the hell couldn't they have had a plan in place by the time they announced he was gone? He doesn't need a goddamn farewell season.

 

They dragged their feet for so long, it's a little ridiculous for us to pretend this is some last minute change mere months before a new season.

 

56 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

No, it wasn't.  That's a story which was created decades later.  But I bet you knew that.

 

Well, the article you posted actually explains why it sorta was and sorta wasn't. But mostly no, and the Sockalexis thing gets overplayed anyhow. The 1915 news clipping with the cartoons and eventual usage of Wahoo are pretty obvious signs that they had no real "honorable" intentions with the name.

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12 hours ago, coco1997 said:

If Cleveland ever re-adopts the Spiders nickname...

 

cleveland-spiders.jpg?w=600

 

Is there a version where the C is red or has an outline? I feel like the Block C is clear to us because we are familiar, but might be obscured to a fresh viewer.

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Long overdue.

 

I think one reason logos like this have survived so long over other caricatures like Sambo, is that Native Americans are so marginalized in society that you can spend your whole life without seeing one or hearing from any of them. They have historically been brutalized and to this day are still pushed to the very edge of society and taken advantage of time and again by the US government, you can't claim to 'honor' them with sports teams while largely ignoring their very existence.

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23 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

^not that it should matter, but it probably does for some people - Wahoo in the form he's taken since 1951 has won zero World Series titles so it's not like it's tied to any great success. The "Washington Redskins" on the other hand are one of the oldest and history-rich teams in sports with championships recent enough for people younger than 40 to remember. That's gonna be a bitch to get changed unless the right woke billionaire makes Daniel Snyder an offer he can't refuse. Also the NFL is the slowest moving league in terms of social awareness. Adam Silver would've had it changed 2 years ago if they were an NBA team. 

 

 

When the Miami president changed from Redskins to Redhawks in the 90's it was incredibly unpopular, lots of donors were upset and there was a lot of that "I'm a Redskin, damnit!" stuff going on too. Guess what, though? People got over it and moved on. Most people would say now that it was definitely the right move and you now have multiple generations of students who never knew their school mascot was at one point a slur. Nobody even thinks about it anymore. That's why you can't leave these issues up to a vote. Last time I was there they were still selling redskins gear in the book store, though, and that rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

 

 

I get the sense that most of the people that get upset over "PC" name changes get over it in fairly short order.  I think that happened at Marquette (Warriors to Golden Eagles).  I lived in Peoria, IL 2000 to 2002 and a nearby high school (Pekin, named that for being on the same longitude line as Peking) had been called the "Chinks" until maybe the early 1980s.  Seriously.  I saw one old guy wearing a "Pekin Chinks" jacket so I suppose he was carrying a 20-year grudge.  I would have loved to have been around for that debate.  I don't even think "PC" was a common term then.  But still...to hear people defend that?  I bet the slippery slope argument was used.

 

All that said, I do think the Redskins changing to something else would linger just a bit longer than Eastern Michigan, Miami, or Marquette.  It may even take a full generation.  But eventually, the world would move on.

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3 minutes ago, Norva said:

Long overdue.

 

I think one reason logos like this have survived so long over other caricatures like Sambo, is that Native Americans are so marginalized in society that you can spend your whole life without seeing one or hearing from any of them. They have historically been brutalized and to this day are still pushed to the very edge of society and taken advantage of time and again by the US government, you can't claim to 'honor' them with sports teams while largely ignoring their very existence.

 

Yeah, this.  

If derogatory names and racist caricatures don't seem to sting, that's because the government was so successful at removing the First Nations from places where most of us would interact with them on a daily basis.

 

Wasn't all that long ago when gay slurs were considered relatively harmless, since so many gay people were closeted.  People didn't have any idea that so many of their friends, colleagues and family members were affected by the slurs.  The more who came out, and consequently the more the average person knew that s/he knew, the less okay those names became.

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1 minute ago, Gothamite said:

 

Yeah, this.  

If derogatory names and racist caricatures don't seem to sting, that's because the government was so successful at removing the First Nations from places where most of us would interact with them on a daily basis.

 

Wasn't all that long ago when gay slurs were considered relatively harmless, since so many gay people were closeted.  People didn't have any idea that so many of their friends, colleagues and family members were affected by the slurs.  The more who came out, and consequently the more the average person knew that s/he knew, the less okay those names became.

Are you honestly suggesting that the world moves forward and evolves in ways that are subtle and nuanced and that all changers in our vernacular are not just the will of a PC agenda?

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Just now, OnWis97 said:

I get the sense that most of the people that get upset over "PC" name changes get over it in fairly short order.  I think that happened at Marquette (Warriors to Golden Eagles).

 

I understand there's still a small but vocal number of Marquette alums who are upset about the change.  But that could be because the university mishandled it from the start - losing the "Warriors" nickname when there was absolutely no reason to.  And the less said about their stupid and aborted "Marquette Gold" nickname the better.

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Just now, OnWis97 said:

Are you honestly suggesting that the world moves forward and evolves in ways that are subtle and nuanced and that all changers in our vernacular are not just the will of a PC agenda?

 

Perish the thought.  :P

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