NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[The_Admiral]

It helped the Stars immensely that the scumbag Norm Green ran out of money almost as soon as he got there and new ownership was able to buy up Brett Hull, Ed Belfour, and other big names close to their primes. I think that really saved them from the just-thereiness of the contemporary Mavericks and Rangers.

[Dilbert]

Atlanta is a big sprawling market. Forsyth is pretty much Macon. However that area of  Georgia has grown. From the 2020 census (compared to 2010), Atlantas population is up 18.7%. Forsyth is up 15.7%. Nearby, Warner Robbins is up 20.6%, Perry is up 49% and Macon is up 72.2%.

 

Atlanta/Macon is simmilar to what is happening in Cincinnati/Dayton. The population between them have grown to the point that the markets are starting to merge together. Here in Ohio, the Mason and West Chester areas are viewed as both suburbs of Cincinnati and Dayton. I imagine the same thing is happening between Atlanta, and Macon.

 

Now while an arena could work there, you have to look at targeted demographic it is to serve. Years ago in MLS they started building stadiums in the suburbs (Frisco, Commerce City, Carson, Bridgeview) to market soccer to families with young kids (aka the Millennial and Gen Z crowd, who have been the demographics who support MLS the most. This move has since fallen apart as these generations have moved away from the suburbs to the more urban neighborhoods. Its why you see new stadiums (TQL, Citypark, Lower.com Field) in the urban areas.

 

Now look at the demographic for hockey. While the demographic has grown in the sport to where it is watched by younger generations and people of color, its still followed more by the older demographics of white, Gen X, Boomers. These generations tend to live more outside the city and have little desire to go downtown.

[who do you think]

12 minutes ago, Dilbert said:

Now look at the demographic for hockey. While the demographic has grown in the sport to where it is watched by younger generations and people of color, its still followed more by the older demographics of white, Gen X, Boomers. These generations tend to live more outside the city and have little desire to go downtown.

 

 

Where do people, on here and elsewhere, get the testicles to keep on giving this same tired BS demographics lecture, as if the Sens haven't been getting mouth:censored:ed by their arena location for the last three decades and the exurban bloodbaths in Glendale and Sunrise just simply never happened?

[GDAWG]

32 minutes ago, the admiral said:

It helped the Stars immensely that the scumbag Norm Green ran out of money almost as soon as he got there and new ownership was able to buy up Brett Hull, Ed Belfour, and other big names close to their primes. I think that really saved them from the just-thereiness of the contemporary Mavericks and Rangers.

 

True.  This has resulted in multiple ice hockey/ice skating rinks called StarCenters all over the Dallas/Fort Worth area.  There are 8 of them and it would not have happened if the Stars were a massive failure.  They are used year round for ice skating, not just for youth hockey.  

[gosioux76]

36 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

 

True.  This has resulted in multiple ice hockey/ice skating rinks called StarCenters all over the Dallas/Fort Worth area.  There are 8 of them and it would not have happened if the Stars were a massive failure.  They are used year round for ice skating, not just for youth hockey.  

 

But how do they fit those skates onto the bottom of their cowboy boots? Don't the spurs get in the way?  

 

(EDIT: spurs = reverse toepick)

[TalktoChuck]

3 hours ago, tigerslionspistonshabs said:

Forsyth is actually much closer to Macon than Atlanta, so this would be a prime opportunity to bring back these bad boys:

 

 

1 hour ago, Dilbert said:

Atlanta is a big sprawling market. Forsyth is pretty much Macon. However that area of  Georgia has grown. From the 2020 census (compared to 2010), Atlantas population is up 18.7%. Forsyth is up 15.7%. Nearby, Warner Robbins is up 20.6%, Perry is up 49% and Macon is up 72.2%.

 

Atlanta/Macon is simmilar to what is happening in Cincinnati/Dayton. The population between them have grown to the point that the markets are starting to merge together. Here in Ohio, the Mason and West Chester areas are viewed as both suburbs of Cincinnati and Dayton. I imagine the same thing is happening between Atlanta, and Macon.

This arena project is for Forsyth County, not the city near Macon. Forsyth County is NE of Atlanta right next to Lake Lanier.

[The_Admiral]

If you think of it as being just outside of Alpharetta, it sounds a little less deranged, but given there's already a 10,000-seat arena in Gwinnett County, it's still a little deranged.

[TalktoChuck]

Not sure why anyone would would ever put a team near Macon, it’s a godforsaken place. Dated a girl who lived there for a couple months, lovely girl but not worth the trouble of going to Macon.

 

That NE corner of the metro area, specifically Alpharetta, is where the money is.

[SCMODS]

It's OITGDNHL, so Atlanta & Houston it is then. 

[IceCap]

Anyone who thinks Atlanta (or whatever suburban hell they'd put the team in) deserves a third chance has Great Old Ones whispering in their ear. 

[SCMODS]

1 hour ago, IceCap said:

Anyone who thinks Atlanta (or whatever suburban hell they'd put the team in) deserves a third chance has Great Old Ones whispering in their ear. 

 

Bettman is looking a little wonky these days. 

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

17 hours ago, TalktoChuck said:

 

This arena project is for Forsyth County, not the city near Macon. Forsyth County is NE of Atlanta right next to Lake Lanier.

 

Oh....my bad. 

[who do you think]

16 hours ago, IceCap said:

Anyone who thinks Atlanta (or whatever suburban hell they'd put the team in) deserves a third chance has Great Old Ones whispering in their ear. 

 

 

-No. There are over six million people in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

I agree that Houston needs a team. Massive growing, population with a fanbase that has always seemed to support their teams fairly well. 

 

Atlanta, no. I'm sorry but 2 failed franchises has to tell you something. 

 

 

[spartacat_12]

On 4/18/2023 at 12:29 AM, the admiral said:

How does the "BUT YOU SAID hockey is for everyone!" crowd reconcile their obvious enthusiasm for Atlanta expansion with the fact that it would be part of yet another racist, classist, and all-around exclusionary real estate scheme? Because it really does seem to be the same people. 

 

Where are you seeing anyone expressing enthusiasm for another team in Atlanta? Aside from the odd Georgia resident who is still carrying a torch for the Thrashers, every reaction I've seen has been "they think it can work a third time?!", or "they expect people to drive to the suburbs?"

 

It's one think to dunk on the low hanging fruit surrounding the Coyotes, it's another to just make up opinions that don't exist & claim that a large sect of hockey fans actually believe them.

[SCMODS]

When the Tempe vote fails, Bettman needs to just give it up. Houston Coyotes. 

[IceCap]

Ok. How viable is Houston, really? 

 

The arena in town is owned by the Rockets. Who have stated they don't want to own a NHL team. At most they'd like to have a NHL team owned by someone else paying rent to play in the Toyota Centre. 

 

So who's going to take that deal? 

 

Not to mention that Houston has a lot of the same issues that plagued Phoenix/Glendale/local rec centre and Atlanta- large sprawling Sunbelt city. 

Sure it's a big market but so is Phoenix and so is Atlanta. People need to figure out when it comes to hockey that market size isn't the be-all-end-all because all the people in the world won't matter if not enough of them want to pay for tickets. 

The best argument in favour of Houston is a rivalry with Dallas, a Sunbelt team that made it work. 

Almost like people think with enough hope, prayer, and Stars/Aeros Winter Classic mock-ups they can siphon some of the Stars' success into a hypothetical Houston franchise. 

 

The problem is that Sunbelt hockey is still precarious. Look at Florida. Two teams in the same state. One is thriving the other has always struggled. Why? One team was very smart in how it built itself up in a market with no history with the game, the other wasn't. The Sunbelt success stories have all featured management teams that knew what they were doing. There's very little margin for error down south. And if you can't make it work you end up like the Coyotes. 

 

So no amount of the Stars' success will rub off on a Houston team if the Houston team doesn't know exactly what they're doing. 

All in all Houston is yet another risk, one without a guaranteed arena. Meanwhile Quebec City has an arena. In a market that's going to be far more forgiving with hockey.   

[who do you think]

If the best argument for putting a team somewhere is the (false) assumption of an automatic rivalry with the team in the next closest city over 3 hours away, you're off to a very bad start. I'm sure if/when the NHL expands to Houston**, redditoids will try to trump it up as an instant blood feud, even though no other pairing of Dallas-Houston teams in any of the other major sports gives a rat's ass about each other aside from being in the same division, but whatever.

 

Has it been observed/discussed around here that in the NBA (the league that the NHL has pissed all over itself trying to become for the last 30 years), the last three team relocations have all been to much smaller markets? Vancouver > Memphis, Charlotte > New Orleans, Seattle > OKC. The exact opposite of the "more people therefore muh footprint is necessary" approach that some jackasses keep on repeating, yet it didn't adversely effect them then or now. Not a single peep was uttered about "league instability" or whatever the :censored:. If quickly airlifting those failing/inadequately-housed franchises over to new markets got the NBA in any trouble with their media partners, it sure doesn't show in the numbers and everything has clearly long since been forgiven. All three of those destination markets (NO, MEM, OKC) are comparable to greater Quebec City in terms of population, by the way.

 

Yet according to many, the NHL needs to stay in places like Phoenix and SE Florida, needs to have a team in Houston, needs to get back into Atlanta, not just under the very mistaken assumption that people will watch you just because you exist, not just for muh footprint, but also apparently because some media bigwig's eyeballs will explode should the NHL dare leave a city where informercials have beaten their telecasts and they've been reduced to playing actual league contests in a local Costco just so they can keep on clinging to the heckin media market like some turd stuck in a dog's ass hairs. How about somebody explain the far more successful league of the two doing the exact opposite of this when things clearly aren't working?

 

**Remember, the fees from their previous, completely uncalled-for expansion got completely swallowed up by COVID. I'll bet money on the NHL expanding again before the NBA.

[SCMODS]

The Rockets aren't owned by Les Alexander anymore. Tillman Fertitta bought them 5 years ago and has expressed interest in an NHL team for Houston. 

[ManillaToad]

37 minutes ago, who do you think said:

even though no other pairing of Dallas-Houston teams in any of the other major sports gives a rat's ass about each other aside from being in the same division, but whatever.

 

Rangers fans absolutely hate the Astros, though to be fair I think Houston fans are more slightly annoyed than anything