NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[who do you think]

2 minutes ago, ManillaToad said:

Rangers fans absolutely hate the Astros, though to be fair I think Houston fans are more slightly annoyed than anything

 

Citation needed. Everybody hates the Astros to some degree after trashgate.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, who do you think said:

Has it been observed/discussed around here that in the NBA (the league that the NHL has pissed all over itself trying to become for the last 30 years), the last three team relocations have all been to much smaller markets? Vancouver > Memphis, Charlotte > New Orleans, Seattle > OKC.

Winnipeg is like 12% of Atlanta in terms of population but the Jets are far more supported and financially successful than the Thrashers ever were. 

 

The idea that the bigger the market the bigger the success is quickly losing currency, if it ever had any to begin with. 

[The_Admiral]

The belief that America's future is in the suburbs of southern cities and everyone else can just crawl in a hole and die has never been stronger now that those suburbs are voting correctly.

[who do you think]

13 hours ago, IceCap said:

Winnipeg is like 12% of Atlanta in terms of population but the Jets are far more supported and financially successful than the Thrashers ever were. 

 

The idea that the bigger the market the bigger the success is quickly losing currency, if it ever had any to begin with. 

 

Oh I know all about the Jets vis-à-vis the Thrashers, I'm just wondering if it's ever been properly noted that, in terms of franchise placement, the NBA doesn't even do the things that the Sunbelt Defense Force - not to mention the league itself - insists that the NHL needs to do, in order to be more like the NBA.

[who do you think]

Deal reached for new Calgary Flames arena, for real this time?

 

Quote

 

The City of Calgary has struck an agreement in principle with the provincial government and Calgary Flames ownership on a $1.22-billion deal to replace the Saddledome.

Officials made the announcement Tuesday afternoon in Victoria Park, just north of the Saddledome, where the city and the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corp. had previously agreed to build an events centre.

 

That site — 14th Avenue and 5th Street S.E. — is where the new arena will be built, alongside a smaller community rink for amateur games and Flames practices. The surrounding area will be redeveloped with a “suite of public amenities and public infrastructure,” officials said.

 

 

[rainmaker17]

Houston has, by far, one of the worst fanbases in the country .  Chest-beating and belligerent when things are going well...not attending and belligerent when they aren't.   

[kiwi_canadian]

8 hours ago, who do you think said:

Deal reached for new Calgary Flames arena, for real this time?

 

 

 

I love the timing of this, especially since UCP's are currently lagging behind in support in Calgary. The provincial money is only going to happen if our Supreme Leader (Danielle Smith) and the UCP's win the election. They only agreed to this because of the election in a few weeks. This is what Smith said and clearly is an election ploy:

 

"After the election, the province's contribution to this arena deal must be approved by provincial cabinet and the Treasury Board before the end of summer," Premier Danielle Smith told the news conference.

 

"That's why, on May 29, I’m hoping Calgarians give our (United Conservative Party) government a clear mandate to proceed with this arena deal.

 

 

The NDP and the Tax Payers Federation have all said that the government shouldn't be using tax payer money to fund well off sports clubs. If the UCP's loose the election, you can bet this money won't be given... and even if they do win, I can bet the money still won't come. Just another empty election promise.

 

What I also found amusing is that the Edmonton mayor said that "Edmonton built their arena without provincial support" and that he will be talking to Smith about possibly getting some money to put towards Rogers Place here in Edmonton. 

 

[spartacat_12]

On 4/21/2023 at 11:12 AM, who do you think said:

Has it been observed/discussed around here that in the NBA (the league that the NHL has pissed all over itself trying to become for the last 30 years), the last three team relocations have all been to much smaller markets? Vancouver > Memphis, Charlotte > New Orleans, Seattle > OKC.

 

I don't know if these examples really make the point you're hoping to make. Charlotte got their team back 2 years after the first Hornets moved, Seattle getting the Sonics back is inevitable now that they have a proper arena, and David Stern openly stated that Vancouver was a great market & that the league botched it.

 

Plus the Grizzlies, Pelicans, and Thunder are 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the league when it comes to franchise value, so I wouldn't call any of the relocations a massive success for the league.

[who do you think]

On 4/26/2023 at 12:34 PM, spartacat_12 said:

I don't know if these examples really make the point you're hoping to make.

 

Don't worry, they are and they do. (The point of course being that clinging to CSA population numbers as your lone guide to whether or not a given market is right for you is dumb.)

 

On 4/26/2023 at 12:34 PM, spartacat_12 said:

Charlotte got their team back 2 years after the first Hornets moved,

 

And the Nubobcathornets have been such a smashing success, haven't they. They're a useless footprint franchise in a transplant haven. Road games there for the Celtics might as well be home games, and I'm sure there are several other franchises that can say the same.

 

NBA teams are far more insulated from any real trouble than NHL teams due to greater central revenues and the league generally not being run by mental midgets, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Hornets are the team most likely to relocate (again) someday. That whole corner of the country is college, college, college, and more college everything. The pros are an afterthought.

 

On 4/26/2023 at 12:34 PM, spartacat_12 said:

Seattle getting the Sonics back is inevitable now that they have a proper arena

 

Citation needed. I went over this in the NBA thread - why hasn't the NBA even started the expansion process to back there, despite everything supposedly being all set up for them?

 

On 4/26/2023 at 12:34 PM, spartacat_12 said:

David Stern openly stated that Vancouver was a great market & that the league botched it.

 

Meaningless PR statement. Vancouver was a bloodbath.

 

But I'm sure if Gary Bettman and Jeremy Jacobs were in charge they would have clung to that failed market like fruit flies to rotten produce, even it meant the league itself subsidizing the operation (or better yet, trying to bully local government into doing it for them) and eventually moving the team into some Canadian Applebee's after they got booted out of the arena so can people can continue never watching their games. All because "Bleep Bleep Bloop Bloop There Are Over Three Million People In The Greater Vancouver Area Bleep Bleep Bloop Bloop".

 

On 4/26/2023 at 12:34 PM, spartacat_12 said:

Plus the Grizzlies, Pelicans, and Thunder are 3 of the bottom 4 teams in the league when it comes to franchise value, so I wouldn't call any of the relocations a massive success for the league.

 

"According to a list that some guy writing for Business Cosmo pulled out of his colon, these franchises in these markets are actually bad. Battery low."

Edited April 27, 2023 by officeglenn

[The_Admiral]

Something that crossed my mind with Winnipeg stumbling a little bit: they've overextended the hockey market in the last few years by adding an AHL and a WHL team. The Moose are a TNSE property, yes, but they may be cannibalizing themselves a bit--when the Jets came back, they had the farm club in St. John's. I wouldn't say they should go back to that, but Rosemont would be an easy affiliation with O'Hare down the street. The old Cranbrook team may have pushed things a little too far, though. Three teams in three tiers isn't something the old Jets or Nordiques ever had to deal with. If the Jets are going to be "the only game in town," I think they actually have to be the only game in town. 

 

This is where difficult people come in and say something like "well if it's SUCH a greeeeat market, they should be able to support FIVE teams!" Well, yes and no. Not with the American economy imploding (you're along for the ride, kids) and tickets being ever more expensive. It was always going to be a somewhat sensitive market. That was understood when they went from 1 AHL team to 1 NHL team. Now here we are with three.

 

As for Vancouver and the NBA, if I remember my NBA history, both Canadian teams struggled mightily out of the gate due to exchange rate, players being afraid to live in Canada, and general incompetence, but the Raptors were able to overcome it by effectively merging with the Maple Leafs: the Leafs got to get in on the new arena, the Raptors got to bundle their luxury boxes and season tickets in order to move them. I guess the Canucks couldn't offer that level of synergy to the Grizzlies. I also recall Stern saying that Vancouver was a mistake and he wished the league hadn't gone there in the first place. Did that happen?

[monkeypower]

4 hours ago, the admiral said:

Something that crossed my mind with Winnipeg stumbling a little bit: they've overextended the hockey market in the last few years by adding an AHL and a WHL team. The Moose are a TNSE property, yes, but they may be cannibalizing themselves a bit--when the Jets came back, they had the farm club in St. John's. I wouldn't say they should go back to that, but Rosemont would be an easy affiliation with O'Hare down the street. The old Cranbrook team may have pushed things a little too far, though. Three teams in three tiers isn't something the old Jets or Nordiques ever had to deal with. If the Jets are going to be "the only game in town," I think they actually have to be the only game in town. 

 

This is where difficult people come in and say something like "well if it's SUCH a greeeeat market, they should be able to support FIVE teams!" Well, yes and no. Not with the American economy imploding (you're along for the ride, kids) and tickets being ever more expensive. It was always going to be a somewhat sensitive market. That was understood when they went from 1 AHL team to 1 NHL team. Now here we are with three.

 

The Jets didn't really have any say on the ICE (yes, it is supposed to be capitalized ) coming in because they are completely unrelated and the Ice have a bit of a problem boiling. They're playing in a 1600 seat university rink that they moved to Winnipeg for 2019-20 with the promise groundbreaking on an proper sized area within five years. Going on five years later, they don't even have a parcel of land, much less a plan for an arena, much less shovels in the ground. They had a supposed plan with a local "elite" youth hockey program to go in on the arena together fairly early on after the move but that fell apart and nothing concrete has ever come up after.

 

There was a newspaper article back in December that said the WHL fined the Ice $500,000 because nothing has happened with the arena, but the WHL and the Ice denied it. A different newspaper's article in February said a source confirmed the fine and that the February BoG meeting was going to discuss what to do with the team and that relocation wouldn't be off the table. Nothing has come out after the meetings to my knowledge, but the Jets may not need to worry about the Ice much longer.

[kolob]

6 hours ago, the admiral said:

As for Vancouver and the NBA, if I remember my NBA history, both Canadian teams struggled mightily out of the gate due to exchange rate, players being afraid to live in Canada, and general incompetence, but the Raptors were able to overcome it by effectively merging with the Maple Leafs: the Leafs got to get in on the new arena, the Raptors got to bundle their luxury boxes and season tickets in order to move them. I guess the Canucks couldn't offer that level of synergy to the Grizzlies. I also recall Stern saying that Vancouver was a mistake and he wished the league hadn't gone there in the first place. Did that happen?

 

Well, the NBA didn't help with that incompetence either with the salary cap and draft pick stipulations. If those weren't there the Raptors would have had the #1 pick in '96 and the Grizz in '98.

[Sport]

For all the bitching about how good the Golden Knights were right away, myself included, I must admit that it is better business to give new markets more of a chance by helping them succeed early rather than to make them suffer through a Columbus and Atlanta hazing period. Leagues have gotten smarter about how they bring in new franchises and the NBA did Vancouver and Toronto no favors by making them ineligible for the first overall pick for their first three years. That's how the Grizzlies wound up with Big Country.

 

It's annoying that my team had to crawl so Vegas and Seattle could fly, but that's just one of those things.  No point in dwelling on it. 

[sky1324]

14 hours ago, who do you think said:

And the Nubobcathornets have been such a smashing success, haven't they. They're a useless footprint franchise in a transplant haven. Road games there for the Celtics might as well be home games, and I'm sure there are several other franchises that can say the same.

 

NBA teams are far more insulated from any real trouble than NHL teams due to greater central revenues and the league generally not being run by mental midgets, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Hornets are the team most likely to relocate (again) someday. That whole corner of the country is college, college, college, and more college everything. The pros are an afterthought.

The Hornets have actually had attendance that pretty regularly outpaces how "good" the team is. They're regularly ahead of teams like the Suns and Nets and in 2021 and 22, when the team was good (not great) they were in the top half of attendance. The team isn't what it was in the 90s when Charlotte sold out like 300 straight home games or whatever but the fans in Charlotte are still there, the team just hasn't been any good. We have nothing to root for.  But even last year when the Hornets were objectively terrible we still outdrew the Suns (a championship contender), the Spurs (the only major league team in their market and an icon), and the Pelicans (the place the original Hornets abandoned the city for).

 

When it comes to pro vs. college it comes down to what's good. The Hurricanes have been great and as such have been drawing like crazy. Charlotte doesn't have a quality college program to draw fans away so when the Hornets and Panthers are good (or even mediocre), fans show up. Charlotte FC has also been a massive success. The Hornets are not going to move if only because the league wants to avoid that PR disaster again.

 

All that to say that the NHL would be better served by relocating one of their weak Sun Belt franchises to Quebec City. I think that market (like all Canadian markets) punches way above its weight when it comes to hockey. I also think that keeping Sun Belt teams is a good idea and the idea that the league shouldn't be looking there I think is a little short-sighted.

 

Also Atlanta does not deserve another team, especially if it's in that proposed suburban nightmare.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, CDCLT said:

All that to say that the NHL would be better served by relocating one of their weak Sun Belt franchises to Quebec City. I think that market (like all Canadian markets) punches way above its weight when it comes to hockey. I also think that keeping Sun Belt teams is a good idea and the idea that the league shouldn't be looking there I think is a little short-sighted.

Here's the problem. The league HAS been looking at the sunbelt, almost exclusively, since the mid 90s. This "if you don't look at the Sunbelt you're short sighted gotta grow the game!" mentality has been the SOP for thirty years now.

So you gotta stop acting like a victim when the long term fans of the game say "enough is enough, how about you focus on the people who actually spend money on your product?" 

 

I know @spartacat_12 would have you believe that everyone here wants to move Dallas and Tampa to Saskatoon and Yellowknife, but we ing don't. We want to move the Coyotes, a team that's been an abject failure in their current market for thirty years, to Quebec City. A market that has a NHL caliber arena and a loyal fanbase. 

 

That's hardly spiting the sunbelt ffs. 

 

2 hours ago, CDCLT said:

Also Atlanta does not deserve another team, especially if it's in that proposed suburban nightmare.

We had people here- former mods even- who mocked anyone who wanted the Jets back because "Winnipeg lost their team the market failed."

 

Meanwhile Atlanta may get a third crack at it?  that. Gary Bettman threatened to move the Jets 2.0 at their introductory press conference and won't even give Quebec City the time of day but sure. The Coyotes can play in a rec centre and Atlanta can get another try. 

 

And you wonder why northern hockey fans are fed up? 

[GDAWG]

30 minutes ago, IceCap said:

Here's the problem. The league HAS been looking at the sunbelt, almost exclusively, since the mid 90s. This "if you don't look at the Sunbelt you're short sighted gotta grow the game!" mentality has been the SOP for thirty years now.

So you gotta stop acting like a victim when the long term fans of the game say "enough is enough, how about you focus on the people who actually spend money on your product?" 

 

I know @spartacat_12 would have you believe that everyone here wants to move Dallas and Tampa to Saskatoon and Yellowknife, but we ing don't. We want to move the Coyotes, a team that's been an abject failure in their current market for thirty years, to Quebec City. A market that has a NHL caliber arena and a loyal fanbase. 

 

That's hardly spiting the sunbelt ffs. 

 

We had people here- former mods even- who mocked anyone who wanted the Jets back because "Winnipeg lost their team the market failed."

 

Meanwhile Atlanta may get a third crack at it?  that. Gary Bettman threatened to move the Jets 2.0 at their introductory press conference and won't even give Quebec City the time of day but sure. The Coyotes can play in a rec centre and Atlanta can get another try. 

 

And you wonder why northern hockey fans are fed up? 

 

The Dallas Stars have been highly successful in the community and there has been proof of that.  Dallas has 8 StarCenters all over DFW for youth hockey and ice skating.  There's also a high school hockey league with local high schools from all over DFW, that has been around since 1997:

 

Home - AT&T Metroplex High School Hockey League (atthighschoolhockeyleague.com)

 

There's also the Allen Americans of the ECHL.  

 

So Dallas has been a massive success as a hockey market, not just with the Stars.  

[The_Admiral]

I don't mind that Dallas was successful and kids named Tanner and Carter are skating in exurbs 80 miles from Fort Worth. I just wonder whether they'd have had the same success if they hadn't had an owner who got MeTooed in 1991 and found a safe landing spot there.

[IceCap]

43 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

 

The Dallas Stars have been highly successful in the community and there has been proof of that.  Dallas has 8 StarCenters all over DFW for youth hockey and ice skating.  There's also a high school hockey league with local high schools from all over DFW, that has been around since 1997:

 

Home - AT&T Metroplex High School Hockey League (atthighschoolhockeyleague.com)

 

There's also the Allen Americans of the ECHL.  

 

So Dallas has been a massive success as a hockey market, not just with the Stars.  

I think you misread my post 

[SailorOfSilence102]

2 hours ago, IceCap said:

Here's the problem. The league HAS been looking at the sunbelt, almost exclusively, since the mid 90s. This "if you don't look at the Sunbelt you're short sighted gotta grow the game!" mentality has been the SOP for thirty years now.

So you gotta stop acting like a victim when the long term fans of the game say "enough is enough, how about you focus on the people who actually spend money on your product?" 

 

I know @spartacat_12 would have you believe that everyone here wants to move Dallas and Tampa to Saskatoon and Yellowknife, but we ing don't. We want to move the Coyotes, a team that's been an abject failure in their current market for thirty years, to Quebec City. A market that has a NHL caliber arena and a loyal fanbase. 

 

That's hardly spiting the sunbelt ffs. 

 

We had people here- former mods even- who mocked anyone who wanted the Jets back because "Winnipeg lost their team the market failed."

 

Meanwhile Atlanta may get a third crack at it?  that. Gary Bettman threatened to move the Jets 2.0 at their introductory press conference and won't even give Quebec City the time of day but sure. The Coyotes can play in a rec centre and Atlanta can get another try. 

 

And you wonder why northern hockey fans are fed up? 

I agree with most of what you said, but I feel like CDCLT didn't really say anything you didn't say, so I don't really get the tone of this post, they seem to agree with all of what you said. 

 

 

[IceCap]

20 minutes ago, SailorOfSilence102 said:

I agree with most of what you said, but I feel like CDCLT didn't really say anything you didn't say, so I don't really get the tone of this post, they seem to agree with all of what you said. 

 

 

My main point of contention is that his take "to ignore the Sunbelt would be shortsighted" is kinda tone deaf. The Sunbelt's been the focus for thirty years.