NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Gary]

https://arizonasports.com/story/3523771/arizona-coyotes-expect-play-mullett-arena-2023-24/?fbclid=IwAR0_KZ3IbvlxKtr8UOMpWZanpU-qRpLm-kDa0eokuD0lz-2oYOWjLZw5CEA&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

The circus will play on for another season

[LMU]

I almost think at this point that they're delaying a move a year just because they have a lease and as a favor to Fanatics so they're not having to screen print a bunch of cowboy hats on the kachinas at the last minute in their first year.

[habsfan1]

34 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

 

I don't think showing demand for NHL hockey has ever been a pre-requisite when it comes to this league's expansion strategy. 

 

21 minutes ago, FinsUp1214 said:

Strangely enough, I only know one Avs fan here and he’s a co-worker who is originally from Denver anyways. One other co-worker is a Wild fan because he lived in Minnesota for a while, another co-worker is a Kraken fan because he worked in Seattle for a few years and adopted it as a second hometown, and a friend of mine is a Caps fan because she worked in DC for a few years. There’s a decent number of Knights fans here, but not nearly enough for me to say Utah is strongly Knights territory either.

 

This is a long way of saying I think there’s interest in hockey here, but those who are fans here either root for teams from places they have other connections to, or just recently hopped on to the Knights wagon. The Avs don’t really have a foothold here at all, so there wouldn’t be any worry of cutting into any sort of territory.

 

The biggest challenge for an SLC team would be the stadium. Soon-to-be-again Delta Celter wasn’t really built with hockey in mind and has bad sightlines, and as you mentioned,  Maverik Center (formerly E Center) in West Valley is a minor league stadium. They’d either have to build a new stadium and grit out a season or two at the Delta Center, or renovate either existing stadium. 

 

Quebec and Houston are the two big markets that are ahead, one of which really, really want their team back, the other is a strong candidate in a large US city that had good attendance for a few minor league franchises.

 

Any location can be a good place for hockey, if they grow a fanbase and are able to profit. Hockey in Vegas has been a massive success, so far.

 

When possible candidates like Portland, Kansas City, and Utah pop up in location discussions, it's ultimately going to depend on how much the league is going to expand.

[SCMODS]

52 minutes ago, McCall said:

Is there any interest for a second Bay Area franchise, like in San Francisco at the Chase Center? Or is it even suitable for hockey?

 

Chase isn't suitable for hockey and one team in the Bay Area is enough. 

[kolob]

7 hours ago, TBGKon said:

As for SLC, is the Vivint Arena made for a proper hockey setup?  All pics I have seen of the venues ice setup is like this.  

 

 

Yeah, the Delta Center isn't suited well for hockey. But, I think the only way it happens is if Ryan Smith buys them and eventually builds a new arena for both teams. I feel like the teams would cannibalize each other with two separate owners and arenas. 

 

I want a hockey team here in SLC, but it feels like a longer shot than MLB.

[PrimalCookie]

Salt Lake and Quebec will make their cases, probably a few others as well, but I’d still put my money on Houston. They fit what the league’s been looking for perfectly - massive American cities with lots of room to create new fans. With the right ownership, I can definitely see it working.

 

Quebec is a pretty sure bet for success, but ironically that probably hurts them if this isn’t a “we need a place to play and we need it NOW” situation like Atlanta to Winnipeg was (and with the news that the Coyotes will be back at Arizona State next year, it doesn’t appear to be). From the league’s perspective, they’ll be fans whether they have a team or not. With an NHL caliber arena and fanbase ready to go at any time, they might be more valuable as a relocation threat than as an actual franchise.

[kolob]

2 hours ago, mcj882000 said:

Alright, so having done some research on this, I've come to the conclusion that Delta Center in SLC is completely inadequate for NHL hockey. You all mentioned how it has the problem of stacked seats on one endzone because the rink is too long for the normal arena space, ala Barclays Center and Talking Stick Arena? 



Well, it turns out Delta Center has that problem on both endzones. (And possibly along the sidelines, depending on how wide this non-NHL rink is!) Listed capacity for hockey, according to Wikipedia: 14,000.

 

That's the setup from the Olympics, not that the hockey setup is any better, but I think it'd work temporarily better than Phoenix or Brooklyn.

 

[kolob]

46 minutes ago, FinsUp1214 said:

Strangely enough, I only know one Avs fan here and he’s a co-worker who is originally from Denver anyways. One other co-worker is a Wild fan because he lived in Minnesota for a while, another co-worker is a Kraken fan because he worked in Seattle for a few years and adopted it as a second hometown, and a friend of mine is a Caps fan because she worked in DC for a few years. There’s a decent number of Knights fans here, but not nearly enough for me to say Utah is strongly Knights territory either.

 

This is a long way of saying I think there’s interest in hockey here, but those who are fans here either root for teams from places they have other connections to, or just recently hopped on to the Knights wagon. The Avs don’t really have a foothold here at all, so there wouldn’t be any worry of cutting into any sort of territory.

 

The biggest challenge for an SLC team would be the stadium. Soon-to-be-again Delta Celter wasn’t really built with hockey in mind and has bad sightlines, and as you mentioned,  Maverik Center (formerly E Center) in West Valley is a minor league stadium. They’d either have to build a new stadium and grit out a season or two at the Delta Center, or renovate either existing stadium. 

 

I feel like one of the reasons why Ryan Smith would be interested in an expansion team is because of the arena situation. It'd give him more time to determine an arena situation and would probably be dependent on getting the Olympics again. There'd have to be a new arena and that could give him the resources for a place for a team along with the Jazz (if needed). 

 

Also, I've HEARD that the Maverik Center is expandable if needed, but I haven't seen or read anything that would suggest that. 

[IceCap]

I guess this should go in the Reel Line Mint thread, but I'm not actually posting a realignment? Just sort of talking about possibilities...

 

One of the more annoying arguments against Quebec City is that it's in the East and moving the Coyotes to the East would require either the Blue Jackets or Red Wings to move back to the West and G-d forbid the Red Wings play in the West again. So hard done by in that conference, I swear.

 

This is annoying for two reasons. The first is the one I touched on above, that the Red Wings are somehow a special, delicate franchise that will wilt if they have to play in the West. Which is ridiculous.

The second reason it's annoying is because it assumes the current alignment system is in any way good or worthy to keep around. For 's sake, they put Tampa and Florida in a division with Toronto, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, and Ottawa. This isn't some holy thing here. It's dumb.

 

So my proposal is to go back to what the league did for the 2020-2021 season...with a twist. Bring back the four geographic divisions but instead of keeping them isolated have them scheduled against each other. You can toss Quebec City into the North/Canada Division, and group the Red Wings and Blue Jackets with teams in their general region.

 

It's just a thought. Quebec City's a great market and "we'd love to but the alignment" is dumb because if the choice is between an alignment system or a market that will actually pay real, hard currency for tickets then you take the latter.

[charger77]

1 hour ago, IceCap said:

I guess this should go in the Reel Line Mint thread, but I'm not actually posting a realignment? Just sort of talking about possibilities...

 

One of the more annoying arguments against Quebec City is that it's in the East and moving the Coyotes to the East would require either the Blue Jackets or Red Wings to move back to the West and G-d forbid the Red Wings play in the West again. So hard done by in that conference, I swear.

 

This is annoying for two reasons. The first is the one I touched on above, that the Red Wings are somehow a special, delicate franchise that will wilt if they have to play in the West. Which is ridiculous.

The second reason it's annoying is because it assumes the current alignment system is in any way good or worthy to keep around. For 's sake, they put Tampa and Florida in a division with Toronto, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, and Ottawa. This isn't some holy thing here. It's dumb.

 

So my proposal is to go back to what the league did for the 2020-2021 season...with a twist. Bring back the four geographic divisions but instead of keeping them isolated have them scheduled against each other. You can toss Quebec City into the North/Canada Division, and group the Red Wings and Blue Jackets with teams in their general region.

 

It's just a thought. Quebec City's a great market and "we'd love to but the alignment" is dumb because if the choice is between an alignment system or a market that will actually pay real, hard currency for tickets then you take the latter.

 

A running joke here in Michigan is from about 2003-2013 all Wings fans would say is... If they were in the East they would be in the finals almost every season. 

 

At one time the Wings were one of the 15 western most teams in the league. Hell, Toronto was in the West until 1998. 

 

From 1995-2009 being in the West served them pretty well. 

[IceCap]

24 minutes ago, charger77 said:

 

A running joke her in Michigan is from about 2003-2013 all Wings fans would say is... If they were in the East they would be in the finals almost every season. 

 

At one time the Wings were one of the 15 western most teams in the league. Hell, Toronto was in the West until 1998. 

 

From 1995-2009 being in the West served them pretty well. 

Yeah they went on an impressive playoff and Cup run. I don't see what there is to be angry about.

 

2 hours ago, Gary said:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3523771/arizona-coyotes-expect-play-mullett-arena-2023-24/?fbclid=IwAR0_KZ3IbvlxKtr8UOMpWZanpU-qRpLm-kDa0eokuD0lz-2oYOWjLZw5CEA&mibextid=Zxz2cZ
 

The circus will play on for another season

 

[The_Admiral]

Salt Lake City will break your heart. It looks so appealing with all those middle-class whites who are emotionally connected to their hometown, but a hockey team would never be more than a distant afterthought. The Jazz have been the only game in town for about 45 years. They, and basketball, are part of the cultural fabric. Hockey isn't. This is where Mormons go to church and have their wedding receptions:

 

 

That we're talking about Salt Lake City shows how desperate we are to talk about anywhere but Quebec City. Take it from this fictional son of Quebec:

 

[IceCap]

10 minutes ago, the admiral said:

That we're talking about Salt Lake City shows how desperate we are to talk about anywhere but Quebec City. Take it from this fictional son of Quebec:

This league is willing to let this team play in a 5,000 university arena with curtain and piping locker rooms rather then going to Quebec. They'd rather send them to Atlanta, a market that's failed twice, instead of Quebec.

 

It's truly, monumentally stupid.

[mcj882000]

2 hours ago, kimball said:

 

That's the setup from the Olympics, not that the hockey setup is any better, but I think it'd work temporarily better than Phoenix or Brooklyn.

Sorry to be pedantic but acktually it's from the World Figure Skating Championships a year earlier  

In all seriousness yeah, it's from 20 years ago, but it's not actually any better now. At the very least this more modern photo shows that the NHL rink does not, in fact, have to run under the sideline bleachers the way the international-sized ice seemed to, thankfully, but it's still not good as a long-term solution. And since I don't think the Jazz are looking for a new arena (yet), a long-term solution is what it would have to be.

At said 2002 Olympics though, they didn't even do the hockey gold medal games here, they ran those at the E Center way out in West Valley City; and lest anyone think another suburban arena is the solution to the Coyotes problems: the E Center only seats 12,000 fans. 

[mcj882000]

1 hour ago, IceCap said:

One of the more annoying arguments against Quebec City is that it's in the East and moving the Coyotes to the East would require either the Blue Jackets or Red Wings to move back to the West and
G-d forbid the Red Wings play in the West again. So hard done by in that conference, I swear.

 

This is annoying for two reasons. The first is the one I touched on above, that the Red Wings are somehow a special, delicate franchise that will wilt if they have to play in the West. Which is ridiculous.

The second reason it's annoying is because it assumes the current alignment system is in any way good or worthy to keep around. For 's sake, they put Tampa and Florida in a division with Toronto, Buffalo, Boston, Montreal, and Ottawa. This isn't some holy thing here. It's dumb.

 
Also it kinda makes the league itself, as in the leadership & executive branch, look weak too, doesn't it? If any attempts to make a stronger, more stable league are stymied by one or two teams who refuse to play ball? I mean we always take great pains to point out, accurately or not, that Bettman's just the owners' , but maybe they shouldn't make it look so obvious in public?

[McCall]

8 minutes ago, mcj882000 said:

 
Also it kinda makes the league itself, as in the leadership & executive branch, look weak too, doesn't it? If any attempts to make a stronger, more stable league are stymied by one or two teams who refuse to play ball? I mean we always take great pains to point out, accurately or not, that Bettman's just the owners' , but maybe they shouldn't make it look so obvious in public?

It's hockey. No one plays ball.

[LMU]

Even Brodie’s weighing in.

 

 

[Sodboy13]

The Québec City metro area has an estimated population of 840,000-850,000, putting it on par with metropolitan statistical areas like North Port-Sarasota-Bradenton, Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, and Columbia, SC. The Hartford MSA is a shade over 1.2 million, by the way.

 

The Canadian Dollar is worth 74 American cents, which oddly, was also the going rate in May of 1995.

 

The American TV partners probably would not be thrilled trading out Market 10 (even given the current l-o-l state of interest in the NHL there) for a foreign country and language, and those deals are worth a whole lot more real money than they used to be.

 

Short of a bulletproof billionaire coming in for QC like one did for Winnipeg, it all seems like a really tough ask, no matter how much the city loves its hockey and misses its team.

[mcj882000]

10 minutes ago, Sodboy13 said:

The Québec City metro area has an estimated population of 840,000-850,000, putting it on par with metropolitan statistical areas like North Port-Sarasota-Bradenton, Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura, and Columbia, SC. The Hartford MSA is a shade over 1.2 million, by the way.

 

The Canadian Dollar is worth 74 American cents, which oddly, was also the going rate in May of 1995.

 

The American TV partners probably would not be thrilled trading out Market 10 (even given the current l-o-l state of interest in the NHL there) for a foreign country and language, and those deals are worth a whole lot more real money than they used to be.

Yeah yeah yeah, heard this all before, everyone said this when Atlanta moved to Winnipeg, to an arena far smaller than Centre Videotron is too, and it went fine. 

 

11 minutes ago, Sodboy13 said:

Short of a bulletproof billionaire coming in for QC like one did for Winnipeg, it all seems like a really tough ask, no matter how much the city loves its hockey and misses its team.

They have one, don't they? The guy who owns Quebecor?

[Cujo]