Cleveland Browns Unveil New Uniforms

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

But Cleveland Browns Fans wouldn't be. 

This is why I'm unsympathetic to Browns fans. 

The fans of the Houston Oilers, Seattle Supersonics, Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, and Hartford Whalers lost their teams with no guarantee they'd ever get a team back. 

Brown fans not only got a guarantee of a new team, they got the rights to the records, logos, colours, and name. No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

8 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

This is why I'm unsympathetic to Browns fans. 

The fans of the Houston Oilers, Seattle Supersonics, Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, and Hartford Whalers lost their teams with no guarantee they'd ever get a team back. 

Brown fans not only got a guarantee of a new team, they got the rights to the records, logos, colours, and name. No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

 

As a skins fan, I would happily have the current franchise relocate to London or wherever if it was guaranteed we'd get an expansion Washington Redskins team with the same colors, uniforms, etc.  a year or two later

[-Akronite-]

9 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

This is why I'm unsympathetic to Browns fans. 

The fans of the Houston Oilers, Seattle Supersonics, Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, and Hartford Whalers lost their teams with no guarantee they'd ever get a team back. 

Brown fans not only got a guarantee of a new team, they got the rights to the records, logos, colours, and name. No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

 

Well it wouldn't be if we could reverse the fortunes of the Browns and Ravens on the field, that much is obvious. In fact I bet most Cleveland fans would rather be pissed off about Baltimore stealing the rights while the "Bulldogs" win Super Bowls, but things are as they are.

 

Cleveland fought for a better deal. I wish more teams and fan bases got similar treatment, to the chagrin of Franchise Over City Party on here. Plus, I think most Cleveland fans feel very sympathetic to fellow robbed fan bases, with the lone exception being Baltimore (is that ironic?).

[-Akronite-]

8 minutes ago, DC in Da House w/o a Doubt said:

 

As a skins fan, I would happily have the current franchise relocate to London or wherever if it was guaranteed we'd get an expansion Washington Redskins team with the same colors, uniforms, etc.  a year or two later

 

MOD EDIT

[LMU]

Let's also not throw the facts out the window to fit the narrative.  The "Cleveland Deal" wasn't Tagliabue's heart growing two sizes.  It was a legal settlement between Modell/NFL and Cleveland/Browns (now former) season ticket holders.  So, yes, fans did force the issue since it almost wound up in a courtroom.

 

Also, you can both accept that the official record books have the Browns franchise as being continuous from 1946 with a 4-year hiatus thrown in while also acknowledging that the Ravens didn't just materialize with an expansion draft that managed to exclusively take Browns players and staff.  Just as you can accept that the 2013 NCAA basketball championship was vacated while acknowledging that Kevin Ware's leg exploded on live television in a game that didn't officially take place.

 

The one thing the Browns have going for them is that the colors/name/records were left behind as opposed to a teal and purple package being sent from New Orleans to Charlotte in 2014.

[MJWalker45]

7 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

This is why I'm unsympathetic to Browns fans. 

The fans of the Houston Oilers, Seattle Supersonics, Quebec Nordiques, Winnipeg Jets, and Hartford Whalers lost their teams with no guarantee they'd ever get a team back. 

Brown fans not only got a guarantee of a new team, they got the rights to the records, logos, colours, and name. No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

I'd disagree, because had the owner kept his word to negotiate after the season, it was possible the team would have never left. Losing that team and being in limbo for 3 years, even knowing there's a team coming down the line, still didn't make going without a team for 3 years easier. 

[LMU]

1 minute ago, MJWalker45 said:

I'd disagree, because had the owner kept his word to negotiate after the season, it was possible the team would have never left. Losing that team and being in limbo for 3 years, even knowing there's a team coming down the line, still didn't make going without a team for 3 years easier. 

Seattle - 12 years (and counting)

Houston - 6 years (3 years with no guarantee of a new team)

Quebec - 25 years (and counting)

Hartford - 23 years (and counting)

Winnipeg - 15 years

Yeah, I'd say that Cleveland got off pretty easy.

 

[hawk36]

All this discussion over who the real Browns are makes me think even more the team HAS to go back to their old set. They fought and won the right to be the Browns, so embrace the history and wear it. 

[IceCap]

17 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

I'd disagree, because had the owner kept his word to negotiate after the season, it was possible the team would have never left.

That's irrelevant. The team left, but the chips fell as they did to ensure the Browns fans made out as well as any fanbase could possibly make out when losing a team. It was an incredibly soft and pampered landing as far as relocation goes. 

 

17 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

Losing that team and being in limbo for 3 years, even knowing there's a team coming down the line, still didn't make going without a team for 3 years easier. 

First off, look up. LMU sums it up nicely. The three years Cleveland went without the NFL (knowing full well it was coming back less than half a decade later) is nothing compared to the droughts other North American markets that lost their teams endured. 

 

Secondly? There was no limbo. Limbo implies uncertainty. Cleveland knew, by the time the newly rechristened Baltimore Ravens played their first game, that the NFL would return and that the new team would have the original Browns' branding and record books. 

That's not limbo. That's waiting patiently while the paperwork processes. 

 

Yea, I get it Cleveland. Art Modell was a bad man who did a bad, but geeze. You got a guarantee of a new team less than five years down the road. Relocations all suck at a base level, but Cleveland made out pretty damn well in comparison to similar situations.

[LMU]

7 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

That's irrelevant. The team left, but the chips fell as they did to ensure the Browns fans made out as well as any fanbase could possibly make out when losing a team. It was an incredibly soft and pampered landing as far as relocation goes. 

 

First off, look up. LMU sums it up nicely. The three years Cleveland went without the NFL (knowing full well it was coming back less than half a decade later) is nothing compared to the droughts other North American markets that lost their teams endured. 

 

Secondly? There was no limbo. Limbo implies uncertainty. Cleveland knew, by the time the newly rechristened Baltimore Ravens played their first game, that the NFL would return and that the new team would have the original Browns' branding and record books. 

That's not limbo. That's waiting patiently while the paperwork processes. 

 

Yea, I get it Cleveland. Art Model was a bad man who did a bad, but geeze. You got a guarantee of a new team less than five years down the road. Relocations all suck at a base level, but Cleveland made out pretty damn well in comparison to similar situations.

And again, look at Los Angeles.  We lost two teams in one offseason and had to be yanked around for two decades with Seahawks/Colts/Vikings/Jaguars/Bills/49ers playing in Coliseum 2.0/Hollywood Park 1.0/Rose Bowl 2.0/Hacienda/El Toro/Farmers Field/Walnut/Dodger Stadium rumors before Kroenke was able to finally pull the trigger.

 

Would Cleveland prefer the Chargers?  We can negotiate.

[MJWalker45]

1 minute ago, LMU said:

Seattle - 12 years (and counting)

Houston - 6 years (3 years with no guarantee of a new team)

Quebec - 25 years (and counting)

Hartford - 23 years (and counting)

Winnipeg - 15 years

Yeah, I'd say that Cleveland got off pretty easy.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

That's irrelevant. The team left, but the chips fell as they did to ensure the Browns fans made out as well as any fanbase could possibly make out when losing a team. It was an incredibly soft and pampered landing as far as relocation goes. 

 

First off, look up. LMU sums it up nicely. The three years Cleveland went without the NFL (knowing full well it was coming back less than half a decade later) is nothing compared to the droughts other North American markets that lost their teams endured. 

 

Secondly? There was no limbo. Limbo implies uncertainty. Cleveland knew, by the time the newly rechristened Baltimore Ravens played their first game, that the NFL would return and that the new team would have the original Browns' branding and record books. 

That's not limbo. That's waiting patiently while the paperwork processes. 

 

Yea, I get it Cleveland. Art Model was a bad man who did a bad, but geeze. You got a guarantee of a new team less than five years down the road. Relocations all suck at a base level, but Cleveland made out pretty damn well in comparison to similar situations.

And I'm saying there were plenty of people that were not succored by the fact that a team was going to come back. Overall, Cleveland got off easier than those cities you cited, but it didn't mean there were not people that just didn't see this team as an aberration of their former team. Fan is still part of fanatic, and expecting everyone to act rationally regarding their favorite things, as it pertains to sports and the teams that play it, will never happen. 

[Glover]

21 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

I can't disagree with you there, in terms of us being guaranteed to have our team back we were beyond fortunate. I can only imagine Whalers and Nordiques fans sitting there watching their old teams win Stanley Cups, saying to themselves "that should have been us" and how much that would suck. 

 

However, there is a certain level of cruelty to the Browns-Ravens "rivalry" if you ask me. It is one thing to watch your former team have success elsewhere, it hurts. It is another thing to have your former team share a division with your new expansion team, where they get to kick your teeth in twice a year, consistently make the playoffs, and win Super Bowls.

 

Cleveland still made out much better than the other cities you listed, no doubt. But until the expansion Browns sustain some level of success over a 3+ year period, the fans are always going to point at the Ravens and say "that should have been us." 

[MJWalker45]

1 minute ago, LMU said:

And again, look at Los Angeles.  We lost two teams in one offseason and had to be yanked around for two decades with Seahawks/Colts/Vikings/Jaguars/Bills/49ers playing in Coliseum 2.0/Hollywood Park 1.0/Rose Bowl 2.0/Hacienda/El Toro/Farmers Field/Walnut/Dodger Stadium rumors before Kroenke was able to finally pull the trigger.

 

Would Cleveland prefer the Chargers?  We can negotiate.

A very valid point. i think that fans tend to view themselves as the actual owners and we know that it's not the case. Besides Kroenke/Davis and Spanos, the city of Los Angles also had to deal with the NFL, who were happy to deal without teams in LA until some of the owners realized the amount of money that holding a Super Bowl would make compared to Minneapolis. At times I wonder if the NFL really would look at moving a team like Green Bay if they thought they could triple the impact by placing them somewher else, like San Diego or another city that had better climate and more amenities attached to it. 

[LMU]

If Cleveland hadn't told Modell to sit in the corner while it appeased Jacobs and Gund with the Gateway project first we may be mocking the Baltimore Bombers redesign right now.

[IceCap]

@LMU is right about LA. They lose the Rams after their owner intentionally sabotages the market, get no guarantee that the NFL will ever return, gets passed over for expansion, gets toyed with by every NFL team wanting a new stadium, and finally gets their team back after twenty years. And even that took a nouveau riche (by NFL ownership standards) billionaire having to fight the NFL old boys' club to make it happen. 

 

Meanwhile Cleveland waited three years with guarantee that the NFL was coming back. It wasn't the original team, but it was the next best thing. 

 

9 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

And I'm saying there were plenty of people that were not succored by the fact that a team was going to come back.

That's my point. I'm aware such people exist. It's just that when I look at what Cleveland "endured" compared to what other locales who lost teams endured? Cleveland got off incredibly easy and fans who feel like it was this huge travesty in comparison to those other cases are being foolish. 

 

9 minutes ago, selby56 said:

However, there is a certain level of cruelty to the Browns-Ravens "rivalry" if you ask me. It is one thing to watch your former team have success elsewhere, it hurts. It is another thing to have your former team share a division with your new expansion team, where they get to kick your teeth in twice a year, consistently make the playoffs, and win Super Bowls.

Well I think there are a few things here to address separately. 

First is the butterfly effect. I'll give Cleveland fans the 2001 Super Bowl. Ravens team ownership and personnel was such that you can reasonably say it would have been the Browns had they not moved. 

 

Beyond that though? It's hard to say that everything that happened to the Ravens world have happened had they remained in Cleveland. The variables get to be too great the further you go out from the event in question (the original Browns relocating to Baltimore). 

I don't think you could say that the Browns would be dominating with Lamar Jackson right now had the original team stayed put. 
 

Now as for the Browns' current ineptitude...everything I've been saying relates to the business side of things. The NFL guaranteeing Cleveland a new team. The NFL gifting the Browns' identity and records to the new team. That's the stuff I'm saying Browns fans should reflect on and go "it could have been worse."

 

Beyond that though? It fell to the new team's management to actually run the thing. A task they weren't up to. 

That goes beyond the logistics of the NFL's handling of the Cleveland to Baltimore relocation though. 

 

[MJWalker45]

2 minutes ago, LMU said:

If Cleveland hadn't told Modell to sit in the corner while it appeased Jacobs and Gund with the Gateway project first we may be mocking the Baltimore Bombers redesign right now.

Modell was losing money, and the Indians moving out didn't help. It also didn't help him that the Indians were so bad from the late 1970's until 1994, because attendance was bad and the stadium was falling apart even when Jim Brown was still playing. Then, when the city was ready to talk, he told them to wait and then jumped on the phone to Baltimore, who were already looking to pull teams in. Had Cleveland not gone, Houston may have been there instead. Had Modell threatened to move like the Indians had, he probably would have been part of Gateway.

https://books.google.com/books?id=GaZMr_8pLgsC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=indians+threaten+to+leave+Cleveland&source=bl&ots=ZB0RmC4I2K&sig=ACfU3U3O8WrEA25cu-jDPXWrGhqsOhHfmQ&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjv44G4__nmAhXOMd8KHfX2ArIQ6AEwEnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=indians threaten to leave Cleveland&f=false

 

He never really attempted to let the public know the shape his books were in. If he told the fans, "Gateway will kill off the Browns, but I'm willing to help the Indians out until a new stadium is built for both to share or separate stadiums for both teams if you vote no",he would be a saint now if they stayed and had a new stadium. The Bombers had a good logo set, but that uniform would probably look like the Buccaneers by now. 

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

No city ever made out as good as Cleveland did after losing a team but Browns fans continue to talk about the original team's move like it was the greatest travesty in the history of sports. 

 

Only because it was and you know it. You're just bitter about the Chargers. (Cues up San Diego SuperChargers BASS clip) 

[Glover]

11 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Well I think there are a few things here to address separately. 

First is the butterfly effect. I'll give Cleveland fans the 2001 Super Bowl. Ravens team ownership and personnel was such that you can reasonably say it would have been the Browns had they not moved. 

 

Beyond that though? It's hard to say that everything that happened to the Ravens world have happened had they remained in Cleveland. The variables get to be too great the further you go out from the event in question (the original Browns relocating to Baltimore). 

I don't think you could say that the Browns would be dominating with Lamar Jackson right now had the original team stayed put. 
 

Now as for the Browns' current ineptitude...everything I've been saying relates to the business side of things. The NFL guaranteeing Cleveland a new team. The NFL gifting the Browns' identity and records to the new team. That's the stuff I'm saying Browns fans should reflect on and go "it could have been worse."

 

Beyond that though? It fell to the new team's management to actually run the thing. A task they weren't up to. 

That goes beyond the logistics of the NFL's handling of the Cleveland to Baltimore relocation though. 

Oh I don't disagree with anything you just said. I sincerely doubt everything would have panned out exactly the same had the team stayed. I am beyond thankful to have an NFL team, despite how frustrating they can be to watch most of the time. I wouldn't trade it for the world. 

 

I was just saying the reason many Cleveland fans still bring up the team moving is because of the teams lack of success vs the Ravens consistent success. If the expansion Browns had come back and made the playoffs a few times, maybe sprinkle in a win or two, you wouldn't hear about it as much. If the Ravens missed the playoffs all the time and were a bumbling mess, you wouldn't hear about it as much. But, here we are. Hopefully the Browns find success soon so we don't have to continue pointing at the Ravens and being jealous. 

[infrared41]

35 minutes ago, LMU said:

If Cleveland hadn't told Modell to sit in the corner while it appeased Jacobs and Gund with the Gateway project first we may be mocking the Baltimore Bombers redesign right now.

 

Exactly. The majority of Browns fans put all the blame for the move on Modell. Anyone that knows anything about the situation knows that the City of Cleveland botched the whole thing from the start. The Indians were drawing about 35 people a game, the Cavs were playing in the middle of a field out in the middle of nowhere, and the 3-13 Browns were still drawing 70,000+ a game. So which team does Cleveland shove to the back of the line in the Gateway project? The Browns. What makes it even worse is that about five minutes after the Browns move was announced, Cleveland suddenly had all the money it needed to build a new football stadium.  Say what you want about Modell, and he certainly played a role, but I can't blame the guy for being pissed off about the whole thing. Yeah, he took is ball and went home, but can you really blame him? He shouldn't have needed to ask for a new stadium. A smart, hell, a merely competent city government would have gone to Modell first. 

[infrared41]

57 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

Losing that team and being in limbo for 3 years, even knowing there's a team coming down the line, still didn't make going without a team for 3 years easier. 

 

Oh please. I lost the same team you did. Adjusting to not having an NFL team is a helluva lot easier than people think it is. Honestly? It was kind of liberating.