XFL 2023: Third Time's the Charm!

[MJWalker45]

12 hours ago, See Red said:

Would love for one of these leagues to succeed, but when you're hoping people are football-hungry enough to watch Jack Coan vs Paxton Lynch at QB... not ideal. 

At least Coan can hit a target. The sideline reporter pretending that Lynch sitting out a series was something planned was rather funny. 

[tBBP]

15 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

It looks like a pretty sparse crowd I’m Orlando. 

I really wish alternative leagues like this would aim for promising mid- to lower-tier markets that could build more local buzz. 

 

I can’t help but think a franchise in Omaha, Albuquerque or OKC would draw better from the local markets than what we’re seeing in some of these current XFL cities. 

 

 

You phrased it better than I was trying to.

 

I too wonder how well the XFL (or even USFL, if they weren't aiming to cash in on their own legacy markets) would work in those "mid-major" markers. I don't know the business side to know how the TV market revenue would affect things (since, at least in the XFL's case, it's more a TV-driven league), and certainly the mid-major markets wouldn't be the big TV markets, but from a fan enthusiasm standpoint—which itself could enhance the TV experience—I think they'd do very well, especially in a place like Omaha.

 

And speaking of Omaha, since I'm down there quite often (and its barely three hours south of me): Omaha done been on the serious come-up lately. It was already on the upswing before they built the Capitol District downtown, especially with all the finance/venture capital businesses out west toward Boys Town and whatnot, but since the Capitol District went in, that town has really taken off. That is really the perfect type of market for something like this. It's got enough people in its metro area (1.5 million or so at last check—somewhat comparable to Pittsburgh, at least), and Lord knows it's got the financial resources (Warren Buffet, anyone?), and it's definitely got the football bug, with the U or Nebraska barely being an hour west of town. (Oh and since the Chiefs done become a lil' mini-dynasty three hours and change further south, it's all kinds of front-running bandwagoning Chiefs fans running around the O right abouy now, too.) What I don't know is if whether Charles Schwab Field can be converted for football...but Lord knows that stadium doesn't get much else use outside the College World Series, so if it can be converted, that'd be a little more revenue for the city since it owns the venue.

[gosioux76]

5 hours ago, tBBP said:

 

You phrased it better than I was trying to.

 

I too wonder how well the XFL (or even USFL, if they weren't aiming to cash in on their own legacy markets) would work in those "mid-major" markers. I don't know the business side to know how the TV market revenue would affect things (since, at least in the XFL's case, it's more a TV-driven league), and certainly the mid-major markets wouldn't be the big TV markets, but from a fan enthusiasm standpoint—which itself could enhance the TV experience—I think they'd do very well, especially in a place like Omaha.

 

And speaking of Omaha, since I'm down there quite often (and its barely three hours south of me): Omaha done been on the serious come-up lately. It was already on the upswing before they built the Capitol District downtown, especially with all the finance/venture capital businesses out west toward Boys Town and whatnot, but since the Capitol District went in, that town has really taken off. That is really the perfect type of market for something like this. It's got enough people in its metro area (1.5 million or so at last check—somewhat comparable to Pittsburgh, at least), and Lord knows it's got the financial resources (Warren Buffet, anyone?), and it's definitely got the football bug, with the U or Nebraska barely being an hour west of town. (Oh and since the Chiefs done become a lil' mini-dynasty three hours and change further south, it's all kinds of front-running bandwagoning Chiefs fans running around the O right abouy now, too.) What I don't know is if whether Charles Schwab Field can be converted for football...but Lord knows that stadium doesn't get much else use outside the College World Series, so if it can be converted, that'd be a little more revenue for the city since it owns the venue.

 

In terms of TV market value, I can't imagine an emerging city like Omaha really be any worse in value than, say, Orlando or San Antonio. The networks bought into these alternative leagues for the programming value. The fact that the USFL is going with Memphis and Birmingham over bigger potential legacy markets like L.A. or Denver tells me TV market size wasn't as big of a factor. 

 

And I'd say the same thing in regards to venue. If we're talking about MLS or MLB expansion, absolutely venue matters. But these alternative football league franchises are all owned by the leagues, which are in it for the TV money, as opposed to individual owners, who would likely be more interested in every revenue stream (tickets, concessions, sponsorship, etc.) 

 

Long story short: If you have a market that can attract 15,000-20,000 people to a mediocre college venue, I'd consider that a success at this level. 

 

 

[GDAWG]

3 hours ago, tBBP said:

 

You phrased it better than I was trying to.

 

I too wonder how well the XFL (or even USFL, if they weren't aiming to cash in on their own legacy markets) would work in those "mid-major" markers. I don't know the business side to know how the TV market revenue would affect things (since, at least in the XFL's case, it's more a TV-driven league), and certainly the mid-major markets wouldn't be the big TV markets, but from a fan enthusiasm standpoint—which itself could enhance the TV experience—I think they'd do very well, especially in a place like Omaha.

 

And speaking of Omaha, since I'm down there quite often (and its barely three hours south of me): Omaha done been on the serious come-up lately. It was already on the upswing before they built the Capitol District downtown, especially with all the finance/venture capital businesses out west toward Boys Town and whatnot, but since the Capitol District went in, that town has really taken off. That is really the perfect type of market for something like this. It's got enough people in its metro area (1.5 million or so at last check—somewhat comparable to Pittsburgh, at least), and Lord knows it's got the financial resources (Warren Buffet, anyone?), and it's definitely got the football bug, with the U or Nebraska barely being an hour west of town. (Oh and since the Chiefs done become a lil' mini-dynasty three hours and change further south, it's all kinds of front-running bandwagoning Chiefs fans running around the O right abouy now, too.) What I don't know is if whether Charles Schwab Field can be converted for football...but Lord knows that stadium doesn't get much else use outside the College World Series, so if it can be converted, that'd be a little more revenue for the city since it owns the venue.

 

I think I read somewhere that Union Omaha of USL League One has plans to have their own stadium rather than play at the Omaha Storm Chasers Baseball Stadium forever.  Whether it actually happens remains to be seen.  

[Cruhawk7975]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:55 AM, tBBP said:

 

You phrased it better than I was trying to.

 

I too wonder how well the XFL (or even USFL, if they weren't aiming to cash in on their own legacy markets) would work in those "mid-major" markers. I don't know the business side to know how the TV market revenue would affect things (since, at least in the XFL's case, it's more a TV-driven league), and certainly the mid-major markets wouldn't be the big TV markets, but from a fan enthusiasm standpoint—which itself could enhance the TV experience—I think they'd do very well, especially in a place like Omaha.

 

And speaking of Omaha, since I'm down there quite often (and its barely three hours south of me): Omaha done been on the serious come-up lately. It was already on the upswing before they built the Capitol District downtown, especially with all the finance/venture capital businesses out west toward Boys Town and whatnot, but since the Capitol District went in, that town has really taken off. That is really the perfect type of market for something like this. It's got enough people in its metro area (1.5 million or so at last check—somewhat comparable to Pittsburgh, at least), and Lord knows it's got the financial resources (Warren Buffet, anyone?), and it's definitely got the football bug, with the U or Nebraska barely being an hour west of town. (Oh and since the Chiefs done become a lil' mini-dynasty three hours and change further south, it's all kinds of front-running bandwagoning Chiefs fans running around the O right abouy now, too.) What I don't know is if whether Charles Schwab Field can be converted for football...but Lord knows that stadium doesn't get much else use outside the College World Series, so if it can be converted, that'd be a little more revenue for the city since it owns the venue.

 

Omaha would be intriguing. Culturally speaking it seems to punch above its weight class for a city of its size. decent amount of large corporations and institutions there as well.  IIRC the Nighthawks (UFL team from 2010-2011) drew over 20K for all of its home games except 1, and even that drew over 15k. The Omaha Mammoths of the FXFL were the only team in that league to have any attendance to speak of as well.

 

Size wise, they rank 58th in the US at 970k per a 2021 Census Bureau estimate. Def small, but not totally unrealistic either considering  USFL markets Memphis is 43rd at 1.3M, Birmingham is 50th at 1.114M, and NFL markets Buffalo is 49th at 1.115M,and New Orleans is 47th at 1.26M (Green Bay isnt even in the top 150 metro areas either) .  Smallest XFL market by contrast: Las Vegas at #29 with over 2.2M people. But it could work TV wise if you count regional regional viewers as well (Lincoln NE just 2 hours away, Western Iowa, Southern South Dakota maybe? ) 

 

Only question would be a stadium as I'd think the NCAA would object to an XFL or USFL team playing at TD Ameritrade park right before the CWS. Union Omaha is trying to build a 10K seat stadium just north of downtown a few blocks away from a planned new streetcar line and a new office building - a bit small but could work if expandable. (they're applying for economic development grants from the state to cover 50% of the est. $100M total cost for the stadium and full academy/training complex)

 

depending on how the 3 smaller market hubs do in 2023 (Canton, Birmingham, Memphis) part of me thinks the USFL might be willing to take a chance on smaller markets like Omaha if Fox thinks they can get ratings there both locally and nationally- After all, would anyone be that shocked if they say: moved the Houston Gamblers to Tulsa (#54 metro in US at 1.02M - one of the highest rating USFL markets in the league actually) and revived the Oklahoma Outlaws?  I don't think an "Omaha Wranglers"  team would be much more of a stretch. 

[raysox]

Somewhat related to this conversation: I went to the Cheez-It Bowl at  the Citrus Bowl/Camping World Stadium and had one of the worst stadium experiences i've ever had. The seats were on top of each other with no arm rests in between and made of flimsy plastic. The concourses were actually confusing to maneuver. There were no TVs in them either, so while in a 40 minute line to get a water bottle from an understaffed concession stand, we would all be crouching down trying to see the video board on the opposite side of the stadium. Oh and the upper deck looked straight up dangerous with how steep it was paired with metal bleachers. 

So maybe it's good they aren't selling out that place. 

[McCall]

4 minutes ago, raysox said:

Somewhat related to this conversation: I went to the Cheez-It Bowl at  the Citrus Bowl/Camping World Stadium and had one of the worst stadium experiences i've ever had. The seats were on top of each other with no arm rests in between and made of flimsy plastic. The concourses were actually confusing to maneuver. There were no TVs in them either, so while in a 40 minute line to get a water bottle from an understaffed concession stand, we would all be crouching down trying to see the video board on the opposite side of the stadium. Oh and the upper deck looked straight up dangerous with how steep it was paired with metal bleachers. 

So maybe it's good they aren't selling out that place. 

The Apollos played at FBS Mortgage Stadium (formerly Spectrum Stadium) at UCF and drew pretty well. Maybe they should've looked at playing there or maybe even Exploria Stadium (if that were even an option).

 

Orlando DID draw at the same level with Arlington, Houston and DC from their home openers, which were down about 5,000 from their 2020 openers. But the 2020 season was technically a pre-COVID economy, so maybe this is actually par for the course and teams like St. Louis and San Antonio are just in markets where they're gonna draw no matter what. It may also be why they tempered expectations of attendance and seem to be ok with it so far.

[Sykotyk]

1 hour ago, McCall said:

The Apollos played at FBS Mortgage Stadium (formerly Spectrum Stadium) at UCF and drew pretty well. Maybe they should've looked at playing there or maybe even Exploria Stadium (if that were even an option).

 

Orlando DID draw at the same level with Arlington, Houston and DC from their home openers, which were down about 5,000 from their 2020 openers. But the 2020 season was technically a pre-COVID economy, so maybe this is actually par for the course and teams like St. Louis and San Antonio are just in markets where they're gonna draw no matter what. It may also be why they tempered expectations of attendance and seem to be ok with it so far.

Disposable income is definitely a concern. Ticket prices for DC and Houston were quite high though Arlington was in line with the 2020 prices as well. 

 

 

[MJWalker45]

1 hour ago, McCall said:

The Apollos played at FBS Mortgage Stadium (formerly Spectrum Stadium) at UCF and drew pretty well. Maybe they should've looked at playing there or maybe even Exploria Stadium (if that were even an option).

 

Orlando DID draw at the same level with Arlington, Houston and DC from their home openers, which were down about 5,000 from their 2020 openers. But the 2020 season was technically a pre-COVID economy, so maybe this is actually par for the course and teams like St. Louis and San Antonio are just in markets where they're gonna draw no matter what. 

Not having pro football within 2 hours probably helps as well. San Antonio drew just below the UTSA team from this year, but above the overall average. If they are 3-1 or 2-2 coming back to San Antonio, I think they'd probably be just above 20,000, only because it's 9 PM local instead of  7 PM on  a Sunday. Had the game been one week earlier, during the start of spring break, it could get more families in. 

 

 

[Cruhawk7975]

San Diego also did well in the AAF for similar reasons.  Birmingham did ok based off attendance in the AAF too (Memphis was meh), and the USFL Stallions seems to be doing fine - or about as well as could reasonably be expected given the USFL's odd overall setup. 

 

But It's definitely not just as simple an issue of NFL vs Non-NFL markets either since Seattle, Houston, and DC were the strongest markets in XFL 2020 not named St. Louis as well - even Dallas was ok there (i'll also contend NY was better than it looked - they only had 2 home games and one was skewed by near blizzard level temperatures hitting on short notice, playing at Metlife didnt help). 

 

I think it ultimately boils down to product/market fit + suitable venue + comparable market competition, all of which does require adequate marketing and local presence to build and maintain a fanbase. That's something both USFL 2.0 and XFL 3.0 have been lacking in IMO. 

 

 

 

 

[GDAWG]

So Orlando released QB Quinten Dormady

[MJWalker45]

6 hours ago, GDAWG said:

So Orlando released QB Quinten Dormady

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpRe0nxMxK5/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=

So apparently he was feeding other teams the playbook!?!? That's crazy.

[McCall]

8 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CpRe0nxMxK5/?igshid=NDk5N2NlZjQ=

So apparently he was feeding other teams the playbook!?!? That's crazy.

I wonder what exactly he did. If it was just a case of him casually talking, to guys on other teams that maybe he knows personally, like, "yeah we ran this play against them, where this guy did this and this guy went there, etc. and it totally worked." without really thinking about what he's really saying, then teams are gonna think twice about signing him in the future, giving to his loudmouth and lack of awareness. If he deliberately and intentionally shared plays, for any reason at all, he'll never play professional football again.

[gosioux76]

2 hours ago, McCall said:

I wonder what exactly he did. If it was just a case of him casually talking, to guys on other teams that maybe he knows personally, like, "yeah we ran this play against them, where this guy did this and this guy went there, etc. and it totally worked." without really thinking about what he's really saying, then teams are gonna think twice about signing him in the future, giving to his loudmouth and lack of awareness. If he deliberately and intentionally shared plays, for any reason at all, he'll never play professional football again.

 

It'll be interesting if this turns out to be an unintended consequence of housing all of the teams together in a single location. From listening to last weekend's broadcasts, they described it as if these guys are all fraternizing amongst each other during the week, almost like a college dormitory.

 

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But when things are that cozy, casual conversations with friends can get problematic. 

 

[McCall]

10 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

 

It'll be interesting if this turns out to be an unintended consequence of housing all of the teams together in a single location. From listening to last weekend's broadcasts, they described it as if these guys are all fraternizing amongst each other during the week, almost like a college dormitory.

 

Nothing wrong with that, of course. But when things are that cozy, casual conversations with friends can get problematic. 

 

That would make the first theory more likely, and would be better for him because it just means he needs to watch we he says around other people.

 

If it was deliberate, he's tainted and done.

[GDAWG]

He's no longer listed on the XFL roster and his stats from week one were erased on the XFL site.  

[BBTV]

 

 

[Sykotyk]

Going back to markets... Whether a team is in LA or a team is in Omaha, with one-game-per-timeslot, you're relying on a lot of neutral fans from around the country to bump up the numbers. What can happen is a major city might completely drown out that there's even a game on. While football fans will watch from wherever just because there's football on. Same way that Kent State-Bowling Green gets watched on a Tuesday night. It's football. It's on. Football fans will find it.

 

So, in that case, smaller markets might actually work better in two ways: Much higher 'local' ratings draw more local support, ticket sales, merchandise, and recirculate eyeballs to return to more future games and the other games not featuring the local team.

 

And, to fans in general, who know the XFL is 'below NFL' expect it to fill the void where the NFL isn't. Instead, by putting USFL and XFL teams in NFL cities, you're just saturating an already crowded landscape for money and attention.

 

Orlando, San Antonio, Memphis, Birmingham, Omaha, Boise, San Diego, Portland, St. Louis, Raleigh, Norfolk, Hartford, etc are places that might do better being the 'only pro football in town' rather than 'that other team that's not the NFL'.

[GDAWG]

On 3/2/2023 at 6:42 AM, McCall said:

I wonder what exactly he did. If it was just a case of him casually talking, to guys on other teams that maybe he knows personally, like, "yeah we ran this play against them, where this guy did this and this guy went there, etc. and it totally worked." without really thinking about what he's really saying, then teams are gonna think twice about signing him in the future, giving to his loudmouth and lack of awareness. If he deliberately and intentionally shared plays, for any reason at all, he'll never play professional football again.

 

He has been reinstated:

 

 

[Red Comet]

Considering that these leagues are basically creations of the TV networks to fill programming slots? They'll last as long as they want it to last. These leagues should really be treated more like TV shows than previous spring leagues.