2022-23 MLB offseason thread

[Sport]

Scott Rolen is the only player to get into the Hall of Fame this year. No complaints from me. Todd Helton missed by 11 votes. 

[BBTV]

Scott Rolen: “"You don't think about this," Rolen said on MLB Network. "You think about trying to do the best you can, play for your team and play the game as best you can, and there's such a long road. I never thought that the Hall of Fame was going to be the answer."

 

Also Scott Rolen: “waaah, fans are mean, the team is bad, I’m not playing here so you need to trade me, waaaaah”. 
 

GD coddled baby that had to go to the softest place in the world to play because he had such thin skin. Screw him.  Scott Rolen is, and always has been, a coward. Cool, he won a WS. Lame selection based strictly on stats and not impact. 

[Sport]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

Scott Rolen: “"You don't think about this," Rolen said on MLB Network. "You think about trying to do the best you can, play for your team and play the game as best you can, and there's such a long road. I never thought that the Hall of Fame was going to be the answer."

 

Also Scott Rolen: “waaah, fans are mean, the team is bad, I’m not playing here so you need to trade me, waaaaah”. 
 

GD coddled baby that had to go to the softest place in the world to play because he had such thin skin. Screw him.  Scott Rolen is, and always has been, a coward. Cool, he won a WS. Lame selection based strictly on stats and not impact. 

 

You're going to make me say nice things about the Cardinals? Not cool. Stats are what we have to go off of. I'll ignore all the Philly Feelings grudge holding from over two decades ago because that's, frankly, a really silly thing to still be going on about. I'll just say he's got the 9th highest WAR by a third baseman ever, 8 gold gloves, 7 all stars games, RotY, key contributor on all those undeniably good Cardinals teams, played on a half dozen division championship teams*, and was on a couple World Series teams. To say he was not impactful is just incorrect. 

 

 

*including two for the Reds and winning the division with the Reds should count twice because look at us now. 

 

[BBTV]

I don’t think it’s a “hall of stats”. He couldn’t handle bright lights (not that the lights were too bright in those days) and could only thrive in anonymity. His contributions to the one championship team were minimal, and he’s irrelevant to the “story of the game”. 
 

he also answered a reporter who asked if he could tell the fans more about himself “if you want to get to know me, I’ve got some bad news”. 
 

if you emphasize stats then sure. And if that’s your measurement for what a HOFer is then that’s your opinion and that’s fine.  I feel differently. But the toothpaste is long out of the tube. 

[McCall]

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

I don’t think it’s a “hall of stats”. He couldn’t handle bright lights (not that the lights were too bright in those days) and could only thrive in anonymity. His contributions to the one championship team were minimal, and he’s irrelevant to the “story of the game”. 
 

he also answered a reporter who asked if he could tell the fans more about himself “if you want to get to know me, I’ve got some bad news”. 
 

if you emphasize stats then sure. And if that’s your measurement for what a HOFer is then that’s your opinion and that’s fine.  I feel differently. But the toothpaste is long out of the tube. 

[Sport]

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

I don’t think it’s a “hall of stats”. He couldn’t handle bright lights (not that the lights were too bright in those days) and could only thrive in anonymity.

 

First of all, he was pretty good in his Phillies years so "he couldn't thrive in the "bright" lights" isn't even true. Second, he didn't go to Nunavut - He played before way more people in his St. Louis years than he did in his Philadelphia days when the Vet was an empty hole so LOL at "anonymity". The game's hard everywhere. You act like athletes have never struggled with fans or media anywhere else besides Philadelphia. I don't know how to convince you that you're not special.

 

 

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

His contributions to the one championship team were minimal,

 

 

He was pretty good in the 06 WS, but also it's baseball where a guy could go 5 for 5 with 5 home runs and his team can lose. You can't hold only one ring against him. 

 

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

and he’s irrelevant to the “story of the game”. 
 

he also answered a reporter who asked if he could tell the fans more about himself “if you want to get to know me, I’ve got some bad news”. 

 

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

2 hours ago, BBTV said:

 

if you emphasize stats then sure. And if that’s your measurement for what a HOFer is then that’s your opinion and that’s fine.  I feel differently. But the toothpaste is long out of the tube. 

 

You feel differently than almost every voter. How else would you measure what a HOFer is? Their Q score? 

 

[infrared41]

Scott Rolen is a hall of famer? Based on what, exactly?

[Dilbert]

7 hours ago, Sport said:

Scott Rolen is the only player to get into the Hall of Fame this year. No complaints from me. Todd Helton missed by 11 votes. 

Fred McGriff also got in. Rolen got in on the BBWAA vote.

[infrared41]

6 minutes ago, Sport said:

First of all, he was pretty good in his Phillies years

 

6 minutes ago, Sport said:

He was pretty good in the 06 WS,

 

And he was pretty good throughout his career, but players need to be more than pretty good to be in the HOF.  Ask Matt Williams.

 

[Sport]

8 minutes ago, infrared41 said:

 

 

And he was pretty good throughout his career, but players need to be more than pretty good to be in the HOF.  Ask Matt Williams.

 

 

Matt Williams 46 WAR doesn't match Rolen's 70. 

[infrared41]

29 minutes ago, Sport said:

 

Matt Williams 46 WAR doesn't match Rolen's 70. 

 

All due respect, I take WAR almost as seriously as I took Tank's annual suicide threats. That aside, my point was that Williams and Rolen are essentially the same player. And neither of them are Hall of Famers.

[Sport]

1 minute ago, infrared41 said:

 

All due respect, I take WAR almost as seriously as I took Tank's annual suicide threats. That aside, my point was that Williams and Rolen are essentially the same player. And neither of them are Hall of Famers.

 

Rolen is a fringe guy that I could've gone either way on and I always tend to lean towards just putting the fringe guys in because who cares. Matt Williams is a no, though. He was also probably on the juice, which I don't personally care about, but if you're not even a fringe guy and you were on the juice then no. 

 

Rolen is just the start and I want to caution you guys so you're ready for it - The voting bloc for the hall of fame is changing and along with it is thinking about where actual value in baseball comes from. Also Harold Baines and Jerry Reinsdorf lowered the line forever.  There's going to be a lot more guys in the next two decades who get in who your initial reaction will be "THAT GUY'S NOT A HALL OF FAMER".  Just get ready for that. 

[BBTV]

Right, so it's no longer a "hall of fame", it's a "hall of WAR".  Defensively, Rolen was the 2nd or 3rd best that I've seen (behind Schmidt, and maybe Arenado... who could eclipse Schmidt) and I genuinely don't dislike a guy for leaving a hopeless situation and making a career / life choice.  I dislike him because he's a jerk.  And if you don't think that playing in Philadelphia or New York or Boston is harder than playing in St. Louis or Cincinnati, I just don't know what to tell you.

 

Again, if you think WAR and all those metrics are more important than being one of the game's true all-time greats or being the leader of a team that's won championships or being... well, famous, then that's cool, we just have a different definition of what a HOFer is.

 

But at no time did anyone watch Scott Rolen and say "man, that's a future HOFer".  Never.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, Sport said:

 The voting bloc for the hall of fame is changing and along with it is thinking about where actual value in baseball comes from. There's going to be a lot more guys in the next two decades who get in who your initial reaction will be "THAT GUY'S NOT A HALL OF FAMER".  Just get ready for that. 

 

My reaction will more likely be "who?" because I stopped following MLB about 4 years ago.  Advanced stats may improve your chances of winning or whatever stupid bull- they're supposed to do, but they have sucked every bit of enjoyment out of watching a game.

 

This is what I think of when I see "where actual value in baseball comes from"...

 

• Left handed hitters constantly grounding out to right field
• Strike outs and more strikeouts. And then some more strike outs
• Walks
• Home runs and not much else
• More guys hitting .210 than .280, but hey, their OBP+WAR x Velocity Angle + (y) = Exit velocity x Spin means they might accidentally make contact and accidentally hit a home run so screw the guy who consistently puts the ball in play. Three true outcomes or die, bitches!
• Pitchers who are trying to throw the ball as hard as they can instead of actually, you know, pitching
• A sport where players like Tony Gwynn and Rod Carew would have never made the big leagues
• A sport where a guy like Dave Kingman would now be a superstar

Baseball went from being fun to being like watching a spreadsheet take place in a stadium and you can keep it. I'm not wasting 4 and a half hours of my time watching a game of Microsoft Office Baseball.

[ManillaToad]

7 hours ago, Sport said:

 

Rolen is a fringe guy that I could've gone either way on and I always tend to lean towards just putting the fringe guys in because who cares. Matt Williams is a no, though. He was also probably on the juice, which I don't personally care about, but if you're not even a fringe guy and you were on the juice then no. 

 

Rolen is just the start and I want to caution you guys so you're ready for it - The voting bloc for the hall of fame is changing and along with it is thinking about where actual value in baseball comes from. Also Harold Baines and Jerry Reinsdorf lowered the line forever.  There's going to be a lot more guys in the next two decades who get in who your initial reaction will be "THAT GUY'S NOT A HALL OF FAMER".  Just get ready for that. 

 

"Who cares?" is a great mentality to have when putting together a Hall of Fame

 

6 hours ago, BBTV said:

And if you don't think that playing in Philadelphia or New York or Boston is harder than playing in St. Louis or Cincinnati, I just don't know what to tell you.

 

Lol Philly fans always try to lump themselves in with Boston and NY. The latter two are the premier sports cities on the east coast, and so their fans demand success. Philly is a second fiddle town that can't decide which current multi-generation title drought hurts the most, but their fans act like they're drowning in championships anyway. Maybe if Philly fans stopped hanging their hat on how "tough" they are to play in front of, their team could attract players and actually be successful like St. Louis, instead of losing 10,000 games and only having 2 rings in the 120 years they've been competing for the World Series

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, ManillaToad said:

their fans act like they're drowning in championships anyway.

 

LOL WUT?  I've never ever ever heard anyone deny that Phila is among the losingest pro sports towns.  Like... ever.  You don't know what you're talking about.  Comparisons to NY and Boston have nothing to do with championships.

 

1 hour ago, ManillaToad said:

Maybe if Philly fans stopped hanging their hat on how "tough" they are to play in front, their team could attract players and actually be successful

 

That's a valid point that I've made myself more than once.  The fans are simultaneously what attracts and what repels talent.  Right now, top players seem to want to be here, and some thrive and others shrink.  A portion of the fan base are complete idiots and  fueled by a particular media blowhard, and fortunately he's retiring, and his listener base is aging.

 

Despite thinking he's a jerk, that's not why I think Scott Rolen isn't a HOFer.  I don't even blame him for forcing a trade.  In fact, the Phillies are having "Scott Rolen Night" next season (which I think will end badly, but the franchise itself doesn't seem to hold a grudge.)  But I don't think he made any impact on the history of the sport, and my bar for HOF is largely stat agnostic. 

 

Scott Rolen was an outstanding fielder, a solid hitter, and a very good baseball player.  But if he never existed, nothing in baseball history would be any different.

 

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, ManillaToad said:

Philly is a second fiddle town that can't decide which current multi-generation title drought hurts the most,

 

Yeah, that six year Super Bowl drought is a real bastard.

[WestCoastBias]

5 hours ago, Sport said:

 

Rolen is a fringe guy that I could've gone either way on and I always tend to lean towards just putting the fringe guys in because who cares.

 

I agree Rolen is a fringe guy and in this current era of voting where the best players are tainted by steroid use a guy like Rolen gets in. 

 

Looks like next year for sure will be Helton, Wagner, and newcomer Adrian Beltre. Andrew Jones and Gary Sheffield are getting pretty high up there too. Joe Mauer and Chase Utley are also newcomers. 

[TrueYankee26]

IMHO Philly fans are as tough as NY and Boston. NY and Boston just get more magnified because of Boston's 21st century success, and New York is New York

[who do you think]

3 hours ago, ManillaToad said:

Lol Philly fans always try to lump themselves in with Boston and NY. The latter two are the premier sports cities on the east coast, and so their fans demand success. Philly is a second fiddle town that can't decide which current multi-generation title drought hurts the most, but their fans act like they're drowning in championships anyway. Maybe if Philly fans stopped hanging their hat on how "tough" they are to play in front, their team could attract players and actually be successful like St. Louis, instead of losing 10,000 games and only having 2 rings in the 120 years they've been competing for the World Series

 

Since when did championship count affect how difficult the fans are? Philly fans have always been a notoriously tough crowd. Boston fans were miserable well before the championships started coming and remain so, sheeeiiit before the 2005 Red Sox season was over they were calling for Francona to be fired, Theo to be fired for signing David Wells, David Wells to be starved and then DFA'd, and Foulke and Graffanino to be shipped to India. If Schilling didn't have a bounce-back 2006 they probably would have turned on him at some point too.