NCAA won't ban Indian nicknames in regular season

[STL FANATIC]

A couple of other things. Apparently FSU asked why they were not exempt since they had the blessings of the Florida Seminole tribe, and the NCAA told them because a Seminole tribe in Oklahoma didn't like that.

I say screw that. The Oklahoma Seminoles are different than the Florida Seminoles. Isn't that supposed to be the whole problem? Indian tribes complaining they've been stereotyped into one big Indian tribe? And yet, when it comes to complaining about offensive names, they complain about each one as if they belong to that particular tribe. Hypocrits.

Also, for the record, the Illini have the Sioux blessing as the Sioux have helped them with the costumes and the dances among other things. The Sioux are not officially part of the Illini tribe, but they do have ties back to them. A group of Indians does claim to be Illini and does not like the name, but the actual truth is that the Illini tribe died out long ago. The tribe who complains is no more Illini than the Sioux.

[Camden Crazy]

Good news, guys! Florida State has released the logo they will use on their baseball hats, soccer jerseys, etc.!

[pcgd]

A couple of other things. Apparently FSU asked why they were not exempt since they had the blessings of the Florida Seminole tribe, and the NCAA told them because a Seminole tribe in Oklahoma didn't like that.

I say screw that. The Oklahoma Seminoles are different than the Florida Seminoles. Isn't that supposed to be the whole problem? Indian tribes complaining they've been stereotyped into one big Indian tribe? And yet, when it comes to complaining about offensive names, they complain about each one as if they belong to that particular tribe. Hypocrits.

Also, for the record, the Illini have the Sioux blessing as the Sioux have helped them with the costumes and the dances among other things. The Sioux are not officially part of the Illini tribe, but they do have ties back to them. A group of Indians does claim to be Illini and does not like the name, but the actual truth is that the Illini tribe died out long ago. The tribe who complains is no more Illini than the Sioux.

Yeah I was just going to say that.

However, Illinois doesn't have the same OK that Florida State has. Florida state has Seminoles that are still alive in the area, and have directly given their blessing for the name. Illinois more has emplied ok because years ago they some Souix helped with the costume. I'm support the Chief, but I did want clarify that. And yes, there are no more Illinwek alive. Therefore, nobody should be able to complain. They've removed one of the best logos from all athletic uniforms, they give full scholarships to native americans, but none of this is enough for white people that have 10% native american in them.

Stupid.

My alma mater will more than likely change their name cause they host events every year (the Carthage Redmen, D3) or move to NAIA. Illinois I can see "dropping" the nickname like STL suggested before, and then just going by Illinois with no mascot. Let everyone chant ILL-INI...what are they going to do then? That's what I'd like to see. Screw the NCAA over. Drop your nickname all together, and the crowds in tallahassee can still do the tomahawk chop and in Champaign we can still yell "I-L-L...I-N-I..." more often and louder than before....and the NCAA can just sit and spin on it.

[OMMF]

I guess this isn't going to die so I'll keep it alive.

2 questions from me since I honestly don't know.

1) Is the Seminole mascot acted by an actual Seminole tribe member or a student from the school?

2) Does the band play the beat that the fans do the tomahawk chop to? I know the Atlanta Braves do this.

If the answer to 1 is "no, it's a white frat guy" then can't you see some sort of small problem there?

If the answer to 2 is yes, then FSU, as much as it wants to be, is not 100% clear of the whole thing. The name may be fine, the logos representative but if the school band is playing a song that the fans do a cheer to that offends, well then they are a part of this. If the fans do it on their own, who is anyone to stop them?

[VitaminD]

1) Is the Seminole mascot acted by an actual Seminole tribe member or a student from the school?

2) Does the band play the beat that the fans do the tomahawk chop to? I know the Atlanta Braves do this.

If the answer to 1 is "no, it's a white frat guy" then can't you see some sort of small problem there?

Is a "white frat guy" playing Chief Osceola any more or less "wrong" (for lack of a better term) than a black Notre Dame student dressing up as the leprechaun last year? Why is Notre Dame's example any better than FSU going the other way? The student acting as the ND leprechaun doesn't look Irish to me, and certainly nothing like the mascot Notre Dame has licensed. Should I, being of Irish descent, be offended that a non-Irishman is putting on the leprechaun mascot's "Irish" garb and cavorting around on the sideline?

For the record, I don't care if ND's mascot is white, black or spotted. I'm not even a Notre Dame fan. My point is that if a non-Indian wears Chief Illiniwek's headdress or plants the flaming spear into the ground in Tallahassee, there's a giant controversy. But if a student of any race dons clothes and acts in a manner befitting a white mascot, no one bats an eye.

[redsfan39]

1) Is the Seminole mascot acted by an actual Seminole tribe member or a student from the school?

2) Does the band play the beat that the fans do the tomahawk chop to? I know the Atlanta Braves do this.

If the answer to 1 is "no, it's a white frat guy" then can't you see some sort of small problem there?

Is a "white frat guy" playing Chief Osceola any more or less "wrong" (for lack of a better term) than a black Notre Dame student dressing up as the leprechaun last year? Why is Notre Dame's example any better than FSU going the other way? The student acting as the ND leprechaun doesn't look Irish to me, and certainly nothing like the mascot Notre Dame has licensed. Should I, being of Irish descent, be offended that a non-Irishman is putting on the leprechaun mascot's "Irish" garb and cavorting around on the sideline?

For the record, I don't care if ND's mascot is white, black or spotted. I'm not even a Notre Dame fan. My point is that if a non-Indian wears Chief Illiniwek's headdress or plants the flaming spear into the ground in Tallahassee, there's a giant controversy. But if a student of any race dons clothes and acts in a manner befitting a white mascot, no one bats an eye.

That is because it is a double standard. You can't be against one type of "racist" thinking and not against another. Frankly, I dont care about any of this. If the Seminole tribe gives permission for FSU to use the seminole, no problem, no parties are angered. With the black Notre Dame student, there should be nothing wrong with that either. I've seen a black irishman, hell I saw one in Ireland. So nothing offends me there. Generally, I believe, that if it is not overly racist there is nothing wrong. But with that being said, there is a big difference between Seminoles and Fighting Irish to lets say, or Cracker. {I do not endorse the use of these words but I'm trying to get a point across, I apologize if i offend anyone) If a school adopted either of those names I would hope they change them because that is needlessly racist.

[VitaminD]

That is because it is a double standard. You can't be against one type of "racist" thinking and not against another. Frankly, I dont care about any of this... Generally, I believe, that if it is not overly racist there is nothing wrong.

Double standard indeed.

As I said, there's nothing offensive to me personally for a non-Irishman to be the leprechaun, even though the overwhelmingly majority of Irishmen are so white they're actually pink. I think it's great that the powers that be at ND found this kid to be the best choice, even though his skin color is not what you'd associate typically with leprechauns, or the Irish in general. But in the greater scheme of things, this is not offensive to the NCAA because the mascot in question is traditionally white.

So far as I know, the student wearing the headdress at Illinois is given hours of training by local Indian groups so that his movements are appropriate and accurate instead of running around in a manner that could be construed as offensive. But the name is neutral - and it's the basis for the state's name, for God's sake. It's not patently offensive, along the lines of "Savages" or "Redmen".

I'd like to hear the NCAA's explanation of why they're cracking down on ALL Indian-based nicknames, including those that have a positive or neutral connotation, and ignoring other ethnically-derived nicknames (Ragin' Cajuns, Trojans, etc.).

The only apparent solution is to make it illegal for any team to have a human mascot. We'll all root for our favorite cuddly widdle animals, and that will be that.

(We definitely need a sarcasm font on the boards for my last statement...)

[Yac12]

The only apparent solution is to make it illegal for any team to have a human mascot. We'll all root for our favorite cuddly widdle animals, and that will be that.

(We definitely need a sarcasm font on the boards for my last statement...)

But if we go with all animal names then PETA would be upset and then we go with colors.

I don't know if this has been mentioned but aren't there people offended by the Duke Blue Devils and the Arizona State Sun Devils?

Why isn't the NCAA going after them?

My high school is the Red Devils and a religious group here wants us to change the nickname. So to stick it to them we got the nickname inlayed to the new floor so if the school board makes us change we would have to get a new floor.

[VitaminD]

But if we go with all animal names then PETA would be upset and then we go with colors.

And even that doesn't always work, just as the Marquette Golden Eagles... I mean Gold... I mean Golden Eagles.

I don't know if this has been mentioned but aren't there people offended by the Duke Blue Devils and the Arizona State Sun Devils?

I'm offended by Duke's existence, but I am a grad. Bottom line is, there is always someone who is offended by something. Unless something is blatantly offensive and derogatory, as long as the group being represented by a nickname isn't bothered, why should others get their panties in a bunch over it?

And what of the Demon Deacons - a holy man possessed by the devil? Who's bothered here - satanists or Christians? Both or neither?

I hope your school stays the Red Devils. It's not a reference to the anti-Christ necessarily (look at the N.J. Devils, based on local Jersey folklore). Or I hope you get that new floor as a consolation prize for caving...

[redsfan39]

look at the N.J. Devils, based on local Jersey folklore

and thats why we add green

[OMMF]

1) Is the Seminole mascot acted by an actual Seminole tribe member or a student from the school?

2) Does the band play the beat that the fans do the tomahawk chop to? I know the Atlanta Braves do this.

If the answer to 1 is "no, it's a white frat guy" then can't you see some sort of small problem there?

Is a "white frat guy" playing Chief Osceola any more or less "wrong" (for lack of a better term) than a black Notre Dame student dressing up as the leprechaun last year? Why is Notre Dame's example any better than FSU going the other way? The student acting as the ND leprechaun doesn't look Irish to me, and certainly nothing like the mascot Notre Dame has licensed. Should I, being of Irish descent, be offended that a non-Irishman is putting on the leprechaun mascot's "Irish" garb and cavorting around on the sideline?

For the record, I don't care if ND's mascot is white, black or spotted. I'm not even a Notre Dame fan. My point is that if a non-Indian wears Chief Illiniwek's headdress or plants the flaming spear into the ground in Tallahassee, there's a giant controversy. But if a student of any race dons clothes and acts in a manner befitting a white mascot, no one bats an eye.

I'm sorry but last I checked the Irish weren't here first and then had land taken away from them and millions wiped out by disease and murder in the name of westward expansion AND THEN had a mascot or logo used to try and represent them honorably.

You can keep trying to compare other ethnic groups (or animals for all you humor-less unintelligent types) to Native Americans but it just isn't going to hold water unless those groups were persecuted and ransacked like the Indians were.

[STL FANATIC]

But that persecution has nothing to do with it.

The names ARE meant to honor them, even if only indirectly (you name your team after something that has traits you want to be associated with your team). The names are in most cases not to honor them in order to somehow pay them back for the persecution...they are strictly meant to honor them.

[-kj]

But with that being said, there is a big difference between Seminoles and Fighting Irish to lets say, or Cracker. {I do not endorse the use of these words but I'm trying to get a point across, I apologize if i offend anyone) If a school adopted either of those names I would hope they change them because that is needlessly racist.

But what about "Redskins," which is traditionally a deragatory term in the same vein? (And a team for which you have a sig banner.)

As Merriam-Webster Online lists: usually offensive : AMERICAN INDIAN

[redsfan39]

But with that being said, there is a big difference between Seminoles and Fighting Irish to lets say, or Cracker. {I do not endorse the use of these words but I'm trying to get a point across, I apologize if i offend anyone) If a school adopted either of those names I would hope they change them because that is needlessly racist.

But what about "Redskins," which is traditionally a deragatory term in the same vein? (And a team for which you have a sig banner.)

As Merriam-Webster Online lists: usually offensive : AMERICAN INDIAN

That is one thing I have debated many times, and it is a sticky issue. On one hand, the name is offensive yes, but they've had it for so long I see in no way shape or form them changing it. While they should change it, they won't simply because of the mindset "Well it's always been like that".

(Off-topic: Does anyone know if a lawsuit has ever been brought against the Redskins or the NFL for racist names?)

[CC97]

But with that being said, there is a big difference between Seminoles and Fighting Irish to lets say, or Cracker. {I do not endorse the use of these words but I'm trying to get a point across, I apologize if i offend anyone) If a school adopted either of those names I would hope they change them because that is needlessly racist.

But what about "Redskins," which is traditionally a deragatory term in the same vein? (And a team for which you have a sig banner.)

As Merriam-Webster Online lists: usually offensive : AMERICAN INDIAN

That is one thing I have debated many times, and it is a sticky issue. On one hand, the name is offensive yes, but they've had it for so long I see in no way shape or form them changing it. While they should change it, they won't simply because of the mindset "Well it's always been like that".

(Off-topic: Does anyone know if a lawsuit has ever been brought against the Redskins or the NFL for racist names?)

I've been saying it for ages.... change the logo to a red-skin potato and all your problems are solved

[STL FANATIC]

If you know the history of the Redskins nickname (or at least what I've been told) it is NOT an offensive term.

[DEAD!]

That is one thing I have debated many times, and it is a sticky issue. On one hand, the name is offensive yes, but they've had it for so long I see in no way shape or form them changing it. While they should change it, they won't simply because of the mindset "Well it's always been like that".

(Off-topic: Does anyone know if a lawsuit has ever been brought against the Redskins or the NFL for racist names?)

I've been saying it for ages.... change the logo to a red-skin potato and all your problems are solved

I prefer a red delicious apple....

Here's a question: Would a change in your college nickname change the way you support the athletic teams or the your support for the university itself?

[mustangdmg]

I agree with most of you guys. The whole thing stinks and it's stupid.

To my knowledge, there's not a single Native American organization, in any form and shape, commended the NCAA. They'd release a public statement. I haven't read a single statement.

What does that tells you? It's all bull:censored:.

[yh]

I find it interesting that the NCAA is located in Indianapolis, where the minor league baseball team is called the Indians. Now if the NCAA really wanted to make a stand in the name of protecting the dignity of Native Americans, they should threaten to move their HQ unless the city pressures the baseball team to change their name. I think Victory Field (where the Indians play) is owned and operated by the city, so there is certainly some leverage there.

[gosioux76]

There's nothing offensive about Warriors, Braves, Indians, Chiefs, or the name of a specific tribe. If they ARE offensive, then why aren't Irish, Trojans, Spartans, Cajuns, Aztecs, Quakers, Vikings or Highlanders?

I've said this a million times, but man do I hate this argument. Again, who are we to judge what makes something offensive to someone. It's not like the term "offensive" applies only to a certain standard, as if "Warriors" is deemed non-offensive by some standard definition.

It's subjective. It's offensive if someone finds it offensive.

Again, I'm not one who's offended by American Indian names nor do I want them changed. But it's not up to me to determine what's offensive to someone else.

The whole "Fighting Irish isn't offensive to the Irish" crap is an old, tired argument that misses the point completely.

They haven't blocked streets and held sit-ins to ban the "Fighting Irish" nickname. There haven't been Scandinavians asking for the NFL to have sanctions against the Vikings.

But these things have happened against schools with American Indian nicknames. All of which means there is a portion of the population, and it may very well be small, that find these names offensive.

It doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just how they feel.

The real issue with this NCAA ruling is that it's half-assed and self-serving. It lets the NCAA walk away thinking they've solved an important problem without forcing some new moral standard upon universities. Meanwhile, those universities -- some of which receive a lot of donations from alumi that are fond of their American Indian nicknames -- are put in a position where they'd have to sport a generic look should they ever make it to a championship game.