Gothamite Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 True enough (although Milwaukee ought to be considered a 3-team market with their share of the Packers).I'm not talking about entering OKC so much as I am leaving Seattle. That seems to signal a new direction for the NBA. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 True enough (although Milwaukee ought to be considered a 3-team market with their share of the Packers).I'm not talking about entering OKC so much as I am leaving Seattle. That seems to signal a new direction for the NBA.Perhaps David Stern feels that the NBA only needs one franchise to service the Pacific Northwest...Portland. If the NFL or MLB pulled out of Seattle, that would have been it for their presence in the region.Just throwing that out there. On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DG_ThenNowForever Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 True enough (although Milwaukee ought to be considered a 3-team market with their share of the Packers).I'm not talking about entering OKC so much as I am leaving Seattle. That seems to signal a new direction for the NBA.Perhaps David Stern feels that the NBA only needs one franchise to service the Pacific Northwest...Portland. If the NFL or MLB pulled out of Seattle, that would have been it for their presence in the region.Just throwing that out there.For whatever it's worth, I don't consider the Portland Trailblazers to be my "local" team. I live in a large city -- the largest and most important in the region. The idea that this town should be happy with the Trailblazers four hours away is ludicrous. This is where the "big-time" mentality comes to play -- if it's leaving Seattle for something smaller, then Gothamite's right -- the NBA is signaling it won't compete. 1 hour ago, ShutUpLutz! said: and the drunken doodoobags jumping off the tops of SUV's/vans/RV's onto tables because, oh yeah, they are drunken drug abusing doodoobags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian in Boston Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 The difference is that Buffalo and Green Bay are part of the foundation of the NFL. Those teams are woven throughout the very history of the league from its earliest days.Technically speaking, that's only true for the Packers. Buffalo didn't arrive on the NFL scene until 1970. Prior to that, the city's pro football history was made in the All-American Football Conference and American Football League. If the NBA abandons a market like Seattle without being able to immediately present an plan to replace the team, it speaks to the health of the sport.I think it speaks more to the willingness of a community - or a deep-pocketed benefactor within such a community - to pony-up the dough necessary to insure that a state-of-the-art facility exists in which an NBA franchise can conduct their business. Whether that means a built-from-scratch arena or a thoroughly-renovated facility is up to the individual community and/or benefactor. The argument can be made that a league/sport that can dictate such terms to interested markets is pretty healthy. Apparently, there are markets willing to be dictated to. At least 14 NBA franchises are playing in facilities that were built within the past decade... 3 within the past 5 years. Orlando has a new arena on the way. Capturing - or, maintaining - an NBA team may not have been the only consideration in all of the markets, but it certainly was on the minds of civic leaders and developers in many of them.I'm of a mind that state, county and municipal governments shouldn't bend to the whims of deep-pocketed sports owners when it comes to financing the construction and/or major renovation of sports facilities. That said, I won't be at all surprised if a government entity within the Metro Seattle Area coughs-up the funding for a state-of-the-art arena in the wake of the SuperSonics bolting for Oklahoma... undoubtedly in the hope that they can lure the league back to the marketplace. That will be the indicator of the strength of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 The difference is that Buffalo and Green Bay are part of the foundation of the NFL. Those teams are woven throughout the very history of the league from its earliest days.Technically speaking, that's only true for the Packers. Buffalo didn't arrive on the NFL scene until 1970. Prior to that, the city's pro football history was made in the All-American Football Conference and American Football League. Yes, of course, but the NFL recognizes those ten years in the AFL as part of the team's heritage, so they count. The Bills were a charter member in the only competing league that succeeded. No small feat.If the NBA abandons a market like Seattle without being able to immediately present an plan to replace the team, it speaks to the health of the sport.I think it speaks more to the willingness of a community - or a deep-pocketed benefactor within such a community - to pony-up the dough necessary to insure that a state-of-the-art facility exists in which an NBA franchise can conduct their business. Whether that means a built-from-scratch arena or a thoroughly-renovated facility is up to the individual community and/or benefactor. The argument can be made that a league/sport that can dictate such terms to interested markets is pretty healthy. Apparently, there are markets willing to be dictated to. At least 14 NBA franchises are playing in facilities that were built within the past decade... 3 within the past 5 years. Orlando has a new arena on the way. Capturing - or, maintaining - an NBA team may not have been the only consideration in all of the markets, but it certainly was on the minds of civic leaders and developers in many of them.True, but is the facility worth more to the league on an ongoing basis than television ratings? So much more so that they're willing to lose an important market like Seattle, just for a couple luxury suites? The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 If the NBA abandons a market like Seattle without being able to immediately present an plan to replace the team, it speaks to the health of the sport.I think it speaks more to the willingness of a community - or a deep-pocketed benefactor within such a community - to pony-up the dough necessary to insure that a state-of-the-art facility exists in which an NBA franchise can conduct their business. Whether that means a built-from-scratch arena or a thoroughly-renovated facility is up to the individual community and/or benefactor. The argument can be made that a league/sport that can dictate such terms to interested markets is pretty healthy. Apparently, there are markets willing to be dictated to. At least 14 NBA franchises are playing in facilities that were built within the past decade... 3 within the past 5 years. Orlando has a new arena on the way. Capturing - or, maintaining - an NBA team may not have been the only consideration in all of the markets, but it certainly was on the minds of civic leaders and developers in many of them.True, but is the facility worth more to the league on an ongoing basis than television ratings? So much more so that they're willing to lose an important market like Seattle, just for a couple luxury suites?Local or National? The Sonics don't strike me as being a big national tv draw, even given their location in a large, thriving metropolis. Locally? Somebody would have to provide tv ratings of the team from before this all went down to give a decent picture of where Seattle is there. On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the Knife Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 That's a good argument, but I think the prestige factor has to come into play as well. Sure, the NBA is the preeminent basketball organization in the world for the foreseeable future, but if they start cornering markets in the 25 to 50th largest cities in the US, doesn't that make the league look a little busch compared to the rest? They have the big three markets in LA, New York, Chicago (and have twice the representation the NFL has in one of those), but I would be very hesitant to put those cities on the same level as Sacramento, Memphis, and OKC. And to a point, you hurt the competitive viability of those markets; given similar dollars, would a marquee player choose a world-class city on the coast? Or a town that's far more likely to look forward to college football scrimmage games than an NBA contest. (Can my bias be any more apparent?)No, but at least you admit it. Gotta respect that. I have a problem with certain markets being abandoned because they refused to be taken for hundreds of millions of dollars. I also think it's a bit simplistic to assume that just because their is but a single pro sports franchise in a particular market that said franchise's financial viability is assured. OKC did a good job in supporting the Hornets, but I'm still worried about the long term prospects. Everyone knew that it was a temporary situation. Hell, the full-court press was on from the jump. The community and basketball fan base knew they had a "trial run" and did well with their opportunity to show the NBA what they were made of, but will the novelty eventually wear off in a non-pro sports town? I don't even claim to know the answer so please don't take it as a criticism of OKC. I had the same concerns about Norfolk when there was talk of moving the Expos to that area and I will have an even greater concern when the talk heats up about putting a MLB or NBA franchise in Vegas.Well, the NBA doesn't have to be pro sports most prominent league (it's never been that anyway). It only has to remain the world's most prominent BASKETBALL league to attract high calibre players and what-not. Putting teams in smaller markets doesn't hurt that effort provided the teams that move aren't the likes of the Knicks, Celtics, Rockets, Mavericks, Lakers, or any other in a "top ten" television market.And FWIW no one presumes that being the sole franchise in a market guarantees viability. The only thing it accomplishes for sure is avoiding competition for discretionary income. I could put an NBA franchise in Anchorage, but that doesn't mean it would survive there, though I'd have no competition to speak of for discretionary income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroinke Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I know it's pie-in-the-sky dreaming, but at least it means not everyone has given up:http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...3_arena01m.htmlA group led by former Sonic Fred Brown this morning announced a proposal to build a new downtown arena for basketball and hockey in Seattle.At a news conference, the group released a statement saying the arena to be financed privately would cost at least $1 billion. It has five possible locations, most near Safeco and Qwest fields. Brown was captain of the 1979 NBA champion Sonics team.Though given it's April Fools Day ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyHubCaps Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 They have the big three markets in LA, New York, Chicago (and have twice the representation the NFL has in one of those), but I would be very hesitant to put those cities on the same level as Sacramento, Memphis, and OKC. And to a point, you hurt the competitive viability of those markets; given similar dollars, would a marquee player choose a world-class city on the coast? Or a town that's far more likely to look forward to college football scrimmage games than an NBA contest.Not to be snide or anything if this is a mistake, but are you counting San Diego for the NFL so that the NBA has twice the representation (Los Angeles)? I'm not familiar with how the San Diego market works, in case that's part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 LA has the Lakers and the Clippers. No NFL club there. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyHubCaps Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 LA has the Lakers and the Clippers. No NFL club there.I know that much, but he said that one of them (NY, Chicago, or LA) had twice the representation, so 2 NBA and 1 NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 LA has the Lakers and the Clippers. No NFL club there.I know that much, but he said that one of them (NY, Chicago, or LA) had twice the representation, so 2 NBA and 1 NFL.It's bad math, but I think he meant 2 NBA to 0 NFL. On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smzimbabwe Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Looks like Downtown Freddie Brown has an idea...http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...3_arena01m.htmlhttp://www.emeraldcitycenter.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DG_ThenNowForever Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 LA has the Lakers and the Clippers. No NFL club there.I know that much, but he said that one of them (NY, Chicago, or LA) had twice the representation, so 2 NBA and 1 NFL.It's bad math, but I think he meant 2 NBA to 0 NFL.You're right. It is bad math, but that's what I meant. 1 hour ago, ShutUpLutz! said: and the drunken doodoobags jumping off the tops of SUV's/vans/RV's onto tables because, oh yeah, they are drunken drug abusing doodoobags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroinke Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Looks like Downtown Freddie Brown has an idea...http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...3_arena01m.htmlhttp://www.emeraldcitycenter.comAlready mentioned, check back a page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smzimbabwe Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Looks like Downtown Freddie Brown has an idea...http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...3_arena01m.htmlhttp://www.emeraldcitycenter.comAlready mentioned, check back a page.Sorry, thought it was new since it didn't show up in the Seattle Times until today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyHubCaps Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I hope the Fred Brown deal goes through. Obviously the KeyArena is one of the biggest things stacked against the Sonics. I agree with most of the statements in this thread that Seattle deserves better. If Stern and the NBA executives made a true financial decision, they'd have let OKC keep the Hornets, whose attendances is tragic for a team in their position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigga Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Too late, Freddie. Stern is already hell bent on having the Sonics relocate. Why he's got such a hard on about this particular issue when he's been so hands off on others. Oh well, at least we'll be all geeked up when the Oklahoma City Boll Weevils logos and uniforms are released. On January 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, NJTank said: Btw this is old hat for Notre Dame. Knits Rockne made up George Tip's death bed speech. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rams80 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I hope the Fred Brown deal goes through. Obviously the KeyArena is one of the biggest things stacked against the Sonics. I agree with most of the statements in this thread that Seattle deserves better. If Stern and the NBA executives made a true financial decision, they'd have let OKC keep the Hornets, whose attendances is tragic for a team in their position.Apparently its been up as of late, although I'm prepared to say that has a lot to do with bandwagoning and less to do with any improvement in the town as a market. Contrary to what Bill Simmons believes, I'm not as quick to describe pro basketball in New Orleans as having been "saved" this year. On 8/1/2010 at 4:01 PM, winters in buffalo said: You manage to balance agitation with just enough salient points to keep things interesting. Kind of a low-rent DG_Now. On 1/2/2011 at 9:07 PM, Sodboy13 said: Today, we are all otaku. "The city of Peoria was once the site of the largest distillery in the world and later became the site for mass production of penicillin. So it is safe to assume that present-day Peorians are descended from syphilitic boozehounds."-Stephen Colbert POTD: February 15, 2010, June 20, 2010 The Glorious Bloom State Penguins (NCFAF) 2014: 2-9, 2015: 7-5 (L Pineapple Bowl), 2016: 1-0 (NCFAB) 2014-15: 10-8, 2015-16: 14-5 (SMC Champs, L 1st Round February Frenzy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothamite Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Contrary to what Bill Simmons believesThat's usually the surest way to get me to agree with you. The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database! Now in a handy blog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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