Mistakes in Logo Facts

[Brian in Boston]

That's well and good that the former names are the reason they decided to go with Red Barons, but it's silly to stress that the team is not named after the Red Baron. It's more like the team is named after the Red Baron because of the old names of the team, the Red Sox and the Barons.

The existence of the Red Baron is why they are called the Red Barons and not the Sox Barons or the Bare Sox or some other combination that makes as little sense as Red Barons would had Baron von Richtoven never existed.

You're categorically wrong.

When ownership of Scranton/Wilkes-Barre's current Triple-A baseball team named the franchise, they did so by combining aspects of the names of two previous minor-league baseball franchises that had called Northeastern Pennsylvania home. Namely, the Scranton Red Sox and the Wilkes-Barre Barons. At the time, management of the team was so adamant that Manfred von Richthofen had nothing whatsoever to do with the team's name that they purposely adopted a logo bereft of any images such as planes or pilots. To whit...

As for why the team is named the Red Barons as opposed to something like the Sox Barons or Baron Sox, the reason is quite simple: the team was never a Red Sox or White Sox affiliate, so team management did not want to play-up the word Sox in the team name. As a result, had Scranton's most recent past minor-league baseball team been named the Blue Sox, Green Sox or Coal Sox, I can assure you that the new Triple-A team would have been branded the Blue Barons, Green Barons or Coal Barons. It happens to have been a coincidence that the Triple-A team was a Phillies affiliate at the time of the franchise's move from Old Orchard Beach, Maine. The Phillies primary color is Red, which was another reason that it made the most sense to borrow the color from the old Scranton Red Sox name.

As for the bi-plane which the club was talked into including in its later logo, team management regretted doing so almost immediately. Why? Because it erroneously played-up a non-existant connection between the team's name and Manfred von Richthofen that was never intended.

Trust me. I know of what I speak. I'm a former broadcaster who counts colleagues who worked in Northeastern Pennsylvania amongst my closest friends. They distinctly remember the machinations - including the branding of the team - that went on when the Maine Phillies were moved from Old Orchard Beach to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.

You might want to do some research into a topic before you label someone else's facts as a "claim".

http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/index...15898&rfi=8

[Gothamite]

When ownership of Scranton/Wilkes-Barre's current Triple-A baseball team named the franchise, they did so by combining aspects of the names of two previous minor-league baseball franchises that had called Northeastern Pennsylvania home. Namely, the Scranton Red Sox and the Wilkes-Barre Barons. At the time, management of the team was so adamant that Manfred von Richthofen had nothing whatsoever to do with the team's name that they purposely adopted a logo bereft of any images such as planes or pilots. To whit...

As for why the team is named the Red Barons as opposed to something like the Sox Barons or Baron Sox, the reason is quite simple: the team was never a Red Sox or White Sox affiliate, so team management did not want to play-up the word Sox in the team name. As a result, had Scranton's most recent past minor-league baseball team been named the Blue Sox, Green Sox or Coal Sox, I can assure you that the new Triple-A team would have been branded the Blue Barons, Green Barons or Coal Barons. It happens to have been a coincidence that the Triple-A team was a Phillies affiliate at the time of the franchise's move from Old Orchard Beach, Maine. The Phillies primary color is Red, which was another reason that it made the most sense to borrow the color from the old Scranton Red Sox name.

As for the bi-plane which the club was talked into including in its later logo, team management regretted doing so almost immediately. Why? Because it erroneously played-up a non-existant connection between the team's name and Manfred von Richthofen that was never intended.

This seems more than a little disingenuous on the team's part, if true.

They combined two names into one that already had a common meaning. They can't really claim that nobody should make the connection.

And if management really regretted the biplane logo "almost immediately", why did they keep it so long?

[Guest]

Besides, it was a good logo for AAA.

[rmered]

I know this is slightly different, but the West Coast Eagles AFL team announced their new logo in 2000 as having the outline of the state of Western Australia incorporated into the design, to show that they represent the entire state of WA.

Yeah right; I've tried a few ways, but they are just slightly similar, not really anything very close to being the same.

[BBM]

I think the new feature where we can add our own facts about the logos is cool... but idk who has been checking up on the facts because a lot of them that i've noticed are either guesses, assumptions, or simply incorrect.

i'm sure i'm not the only one to have seen these mistakes.

here's some quick examples:

Islanders:

----- The Isles' logo features a map of Long Island and its five counties, which include Brooklyn and Queens--both part of New York City. The colors are the traditional New York colors of blue and orange, representing the English (blue) and the Dutch (orange.) The name narrowly beat out "Log Island Ducks."

Posted by NyghtOwl on October 17, 2006 -----

First of all.. there are only FOUR counties IF you include kings (not brooklyn) and queens - and that map does not include either.. it is only nassau and suffolk.

Actually, that DOES include Brooklyn and Queens, but it is more a general map of Long Island than distinguishing county lines or anything like that. They're the "Islanders", not the "Eastern Long Island Hockeyers"

[Moser316]

I'm also waiting for the dates on UW-Milwaukee's logos to be corrected. The listed use of the cartoon panther logo is from 1989-99, but it was actually introduced in 1965 when the school changed their athletic nickname from the Cardinals to the Panthers. Between 1965 and 1999 (when the current logo was introduced), they've actually used several different logos. I think I should research it further if I get the time...

[Brian in Boston]

This seems more than a little disingenuous on the team's part...

I can't speak to whether or not team management was disingenuous in making the claim that they wanted to make no connection to the historical "Red Baron". I can only point to the fact that team management has - since day one - repeatedly asserted that they did not name the team after Manfred von Richthofen.

... if true.

Based upon the facts repeatedly asserted by team management and local journalists, there's no "if" about it.

They combined two names into one that already had a common meaning.

While simultaneously going out of their way to distance themselves from any connection whatsoever to the historical "Red Baron".

They can't really claim that nobody should make the connection.

They've never claimed that nobody should make the connection. Whether people initially make the erroneous connection or not is beyond their control. What they have done is inform people - repeatedly - that no connection has ever been intended.

And if management really regretted the biplane logo "almost immediately", why did they keep it so long?

My only theory on this is that said decision points to one of the pitfalls in having a local government entity owning a professional sports franchise and operating the day-to-day operations of the club. At the end of the day, the Lackawanna County Stadium Authority is a government bureaucracy. I don't care how long individual members of the LCSA have served on the body, I'd question their expertise as sports management and marketing executives. They're local bureaucrats first... foremost... always. We've all seen sports management professionals botch branding decisions, so why should we expect that a bunch of local government pencil-pushers would succeed where professionals have, on occassion, faltered. The difference is that the Lackawanna County Stadium Authority, as a local government entity, was probably of a mind that local tax dollars had been spent on the ill-concieved new logo so it was going to be used... regardless of the fact that it flew in the face of what the team had been telling fans about their identity since the team was branded as the Red Barons.

Incidentally, I'm hoping that Mandalay Sports Enterprises' management contract with the Lackawanna County Stadium Authority eventually leads to Mandalay purchasing the team from the local government agency. Owning and operating professional sports franchises is the last thing government should be involving itself with.

[Gothamite]

I'm accepting what you say about the original intent is true, but I would like to have seen some more contemporaneous reports.

They've never claimed that nobody should make the connection. Whether people initially make the erroneous connection or not is beyond their control. What they have done is inform people - repeatedly - that no connection has ever been intended.

Not ever been intended? Demonstrably false. They embraced the connection from 1997-2006. Not originally intended? That's an argument that can be made.

[hecticbro]

here's another assumption one

The "NJ" combo in the devils logo also forms a lowercase d

Fact submitted by Mike Tousana

maybe you could find a lowercase d in there... but its not intentional

I never noticed it until I saw that logo fact, then I spotted it right away. it's cool.

[Brian in Boston]

Not ever been intended? Demonstrably false. They embraced the connection from 1997-2006.

Demonstrably false? Embraced the connection? Hardly.

Did the team utilize a logo featuring a bi-plane from 1997 to 2006? Yes. However, did they simultaneously continue to deny - as they had from the time the team was established in Northeastern Pennsylvania - that the Red Barons name had anything to do with Manfred von Richthofen? Yes.

In short, the only thing "demonstrable" on the Red Barons' part was that the adoption of the bi-plane logo in 1997 made for a demonstrably incoherent and piss-poor branding campaign. Further, team management's repeated denials of the Manfred von Richthofen connection can hardly be seen as the team having "embraced the connection".

One thing is certain: the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Red Barons' branding history is a case study in what not to do if a team is intent on establishing a coherent and appealing identity package.

[Your Name Here]

Didn't Richtofen fly a triplane? Anyway, per an earlier post about the Metropolitans, they were a seperate club and not affiliated with the Giants. They played in the American Association, as you suspected.

[Gordie]

Didn't Richtofen fly a triplane?

He's generally associated with the Fokker triplane that he flew later in the war, but he also flew various models of the Albatros biplane.

[fonz]

Wow, it looks like there's a lot of mistakes!

[jrh31584]

Never mind, Gordie beat me to it.

[goforbroke]

I think the new feature where we can add our own facts about the logos is cool... but idk who has been checking up on the facts because a lot of them that i've noticed are either guesses, assumptions, or simply incorrect.

i'm sure i'm not the only one to have seen these mistakes.

here's some quick examples:

Islanders:

----- The Isles' logo features a map of Long Island and its five counties, which include Brooklyn and Queens--both part of New York City. The colors are the traditional New York colors of blue and orange, representing the English (blue) and the Dutch (orange.) The name narrowly beat out "Log Island Ducks."

Posted by NyghtOwl on October 17, 2006 -----

First of all.. there are only FOUR counties IF you include kings (not brooklyn) and queens - and that map does not include either.. it is only nassau and suffolk.

Actually, that DOES include Brooklyn and Queens, but it is more a general map of Long Island than distinguishing county lines or anything like that. They're the "Islanders", not the "Eastern Long Island Hockeyers"

That absolutly DOES NOT include brookyln or queens. This is exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to people just guessing and making stuff up or relaying information that they may have heard somewhere. facts means facts... so don't say something about a logo unless you are sure it is a FACT.

It could not be more obvious that this is just nassau and suffolk and not brooklyn or queens

also - like i said in my fact.. whether intentionally or not.. the tip of the I points to almost exactly where nassau colliseum is

[Gothamite]

Not ever been intended? Demonstrably false. They embraced the connection from 1997-2006.

Demonstrably false? Embraced the connection? Hardly.

Yes, demonstrably false. They used a biplane in their logo. After years of denying the connection, they adopt a logo that strengthens the connection. That's embracing it.

Did the team utilize a logo featuring a bi-plane from 1997 to 2006? Yes. However, did they simultaneously continue to deny - as they had from the time the team was established in Northeastern Pennsylvania - that the Red Barons name had anything to do with Manfred von Richthofen? Yes.

That they were inconsistent is part of my point. If your chronology is correct, they were talking out of both sides of their mouth, denying the connection on one hand, while reinforcing it on the field.

I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense. I'll accept that the name didn't originally intend to reference von Richthofen, but when they used a logo that directly referenced von Richthofen makes the claim that they never "wanted to make no connection to the historical "Red Baron"" demonstrably false.

[mike2sana]

Random Logos Fact

Oakland Oaks

(1968 - 1969)

My husband and I belong to a MODEL A car club and this is exactly the logo our club uses.the club name Acorn A's...When I was a child I remember going to the Oakland Oaks in Emeryville....

Fact submitted by Larry & Katherine Lund

what the does this have to do with a logo fact

the thing i said about the devils is true but this is crazy

[Guest]

The Red Baron was a badass. I'd play it up.

[Delicate Genius]

Not an incorrect logo fact, but the bottom of the red circle on the Oilers logo has always been cut off. Could we fix this sometime?

http://www.sportslogos.net/logo.php?lo=83

[KJTALBOT]

This is not a logo fact correction, but a logo correction.

The primary mark for Indiana University is listed as 1976 - Present.

However, a few years back, they updated their logo and made it flat. There is no shadow outline.