Game 2 controversy

[pcgd]

It's a shame, that should Detroit win this series, that fans like STLFanatic will constantly remind us that Rogers "cheated" them out of Game 2 whether he was cheating or not.

He actually said that it most likely didn't cost them the game.

Kenny Rogers pitched well with some good luck and sharp defense and his performance should not be attributed soley or necessarily much at all to what was on his hand.

The Cards plain didn't hit, so I'm not blaming the loss on this...

He's upset that he's getting off scott free, mainly because of what happened to a cardinal pitcher over what was proven to not be pine-tar, even though the umpires said it was.

I do however think it could have effected the outcome of the whole world series had he been ejected. Think, if Rogers is ejected, the Tigers have to use relievers the rest of the game. The Cardinals, might have hit the relievers, they might not have. The Tigers might still have won 3-0. However, it would not have set the rest of the series up well for the Tigers having to pitch 8 relief innings. Even with a day of rest, they would have been stretched thin, and that could have effected games 3-5.

Its not how I would want to win.

[pcgd]

Just to fan the fire a bit more...

I saw somewhere they talked about how Pudge was delibertly (or seemed to delibertly) keep the balls away from the umpire.

I remember seeing him toss a ball in the dirt way off to the side and it seemed odd, and reach for one that was in the dirt circle (one that would have been replaced) and tossed it away before the umpire could get to it.

Where ever I saw it said he saw it a couple times, I only remember it once or twice. I don't watch the tigers enough, pudge might always do that. He does some things that most catchers don't do (pitches that miss to his left he transfers to his throwing hand behind the back)

Again, not throwing any accusations because I don't know and it didn't cost my team the game. Pine Tar doesn't make up for bad swings, balls hit right at people, and not capitalizing on runners in scoring position. Just in the interest of hte conversation going, I wanted to pass that along...

[CC97]

Gregg Zaun, who was doing analysis for Rogers Sportsnet, said that pitchers do this ALL THE TIME and that the umpires know about it and don't care about it.

Zaun also said he's not alone as a hitter in which he prefers when pitchers put pine tar on their hand, as it gives the pitcher a better grip on the ball, it's not like putting vasoline on it for extra spin.

[paynomind]

Looks more like tobacco spit than pine tar to me. Doesn't look like dirt at all. Unless its dirt mixed with Pine Tar or Tobacco Spit.

My bet is that doctoring the balls is much more common than any of us believe. I have absolutly nothing to base this on, but I bet it happens.

It made me think of Julian Tavarez for sure.

I don't know if it was handled properly, but in most cases the umpires never do anything about this stuff unless the opposing manager asks. Just like checking hte curve in hockey. Once a manager/coach asks, the refs will check it, typically without question. LaRussa should have pressed the issue, but he didn't. I bet it had a huge part to do with his relationship with Leyand. I also bet that Leyland wouldn't have been upset had he pressed the issue. They are both old school and Leyland would have done the same thing if Spezio's Beard was scuffing up the balls.

He washed his hands and still pitched brilliantly. I'd hate to have the Cardinals win game 6 (if it gets there) because he was suspended with no proof, no ejection, nothing. If somehow they can prove he cheated (which is impossible) ok. But at the current time, nothing will come of it, and I bet his hands are squeaky clean for game 6.

Well done, sir.

Sane, logical, realistic.

Amazing anyone around here is capable of a measured response.

[CC97]

Well done, sir.

Sane, logical, realistic.

Amazing anyone around here is capable of a measured response.

Way to ruin the streak with that last sentence

[whitedawg22]

The substance could have been pine tar, or it could have been a mixture of rosin, dirt, sweat, and condensation from his breath (since it was a cold night, the umpires legally let him blow on his hand between pitches, which he did multiple times between just about every pitch). The pictures posted on the first page of this thread seem to show a substance that looks spread out, like pine tar, but it also looks a little granular, like rosin/dirt/moisture.

Since the umps checked out his hand after the first inning, I'm inclined to believe it was the latter. I mean, the sheer amount of the substance that was on his hand, whatever it was, would seem to me to be a conclusive case for ejection. Every ump knows that. The fact that Rogers stayed in would seem to indicate that whatever it was, it was legal enough for him to continue after washing his hands (sort of like if a pitcher wears a white glove, he is allowed to stay in the game but has to change his glove before continuing).

One caveat: it looked like Fox noticed the substance and showed a close-up of it before the Cardinals and La Russa noticed it. It's possible that a Tigers staffer saw the images on TV, then quickly called the dugout and told Rogers to wash his hand before the umpires inspected it. In that case, the substance may very well have been pine tar. Does anybody have a picture of Rogers' hand as the umpire is inspecting it after the first inning?

[yh]

This is just one of those "baseball things." It's what makes the game great, legendary even. Maybe it was pine tar, maybe it wasn't. Nobody on the field seemed to make a huge deal over it so let's just say "that's baseball" and move on. Even with the Cards' loss last night, they're still holding the Tigers to less than 2.5 runs per game with their best two pitchers yet to throw. I like the Birds' chances if that rate holds up.

And this might make me an unpopular figure in Cardinal Nation, but I'd like to apologize to the TV viewing audience for not so subtle St. Louis bias Joe Buck and Tim McCarver display on a fairly regular basis. I for one am embarassed by it. The Leyland in-game interview last night was awful. I thought the Tigers' skipper handled himself very well.

[fiasco!]

This is just one of those "baseball things." It's what makes the game great, legendary even. Maybe it was pine tar, maybe it wasn't. Nobody on the field seemed to make a huge deal over it so let's just say "that's baseball" and move on. Even with the Cards' loss last night, they're still holding the Tigers to less than 2.5 runs per game with their best two pitchers yet to throw. I like the Birds' chances if that rate holds up.

And this might make me an unpopular figure in Cardinal Nation, but I'd like to apologize to the TV viewing audience for not so subtle St. Louis bias Joe Buck and Tim McCarver display on a fairly regular basis. I for one am embarassed by it. The Leyland in-game interview last night was awful. I thought the Tigers' skipper handled himself very well.

apology accepted. i think both leyland and larussa handled themselves extremely well during the in-game interviews. i, for one, hate the in-game interviews. i feel they serve no purpose to the broadcast, other than filler. if they really wanted to get what was on the managers minds, they'd fit them with a mic and broadcast snippets of actual game strategy over the course of the game.

as far as the controversy, as a tigers fan, i was pissed that they kept showing the close-up shot of rogers' hand. i was saying to my wife "you can bet your ass that someone from the cards is watching the broadcast and this will not turn out good". well, it didn't turn out bad, but i hate that the television broadcast had the potential of affecting this game. that's supposed to be part of the beauty of baseball, no outside interference via replays and the like. it's the human element that helps make it a great game.

[FiddySicks]

And this might make me an unpopular figure in Cardinal Nation, but I'd like to apologize to the TV viewing audience for not so subtle St. Louis bias Joe Buck and Tim McCarver display on a fairly regular basis. I for one am embarassed by it.

I was talking to my dad last night and he told me this. (Now keep in mind, hes a die hard Cardinals fan who was born and raised in St. Louis and grew up going to Browns games, and was even a bunkmate with McCarver in Basic Training) He said, "I dont see this so called "blatant homerism" at all with Tim and Joe. I simply just dont see it...... But then again its pretty hard to see something thats so overshadowed by how amazingly stupid and obvious those two idiots are."

I got a kick outta that one.

[ProvidenceRI]

>>Would a veteran as tenured as Kenny Rogers be dumb enough to cheat on the world's stag and be so careless to reveal his cheating to the tv cameras? I doubt it.

I have to disagree with your logic. Humans have proved to do numerous stupid things.

By your logic, you would acquit ALL criminals, and ask the judge: "Would they be stupid enough to commit a crime? and get caught? I doubt it."

Some quick points:

1) The spot in question appears in several games on the same part of the hand. This is no act of random dirt.

2) The substance looks wet, the field conditions were dry.

3) The substance looks yellowish brown, dirt is not yellowish.

4) Rogers' post game interview made him look dumb and like a complete liar. He didn't notice a patch of dirt on his hands for the 3rd consecutive game? He never looked at his hand once while holding the ball in his glove?

4) Kenny Rogers wears a BP cap (thanks uniwatch) with a dark underbrim. He must do this so the umpire doesn't see the pinetar stains.

I don't care who wins this Series, but this guy is a blatant cheater. Prepare to have an atserik in the history books.

[Pat]

I think it's pretty obvious Kenny had a foreign substance on his hand, but please let's not make too big a deal out of it. If the Tigers win the Seriers, they deserve it. No asterix. I imagine many, many pitchers have done this before, even in the postseason. It's a shame that he got away with it, but he did, and even after he wiped it off he pitched a brilliant game.

[ROCHitman]

2) The substance looks wet, the field conditions were dry.

I don't care who wins this Series, but this guy is a blatant cheater. Prepare to have an atserik in the history books.

It rained in Detroit for most of the day leading up to the game.

The field was definetly wet.

Didn't you see Granderson slide some 15 feet on the grass?

There will be no asterik.

[STL FANATIC]

Here's a look at the back of his hat.

He was likely cheating throughout the whole game. Reminents definatley remained on his hand, and he kept touching that spot on the back of his hat.

I am starting to believe it affected the game more than I originally thought.

I'm still not gonna use it as an excuse for the Cards losing, and certainly not if the Cards lose the series.

Should Rogers pitch another game, you can expect I'll be unhappy about that, because he should not be allowed to.

Asterik? No, but a little bit of a cloud of doubt? I think that's fair.

Eitherway, it's only one game affected right now and the games in which Rogers isn't pitching hold most of the value right now. If the Cards lose by the amount of games Rogers pitches, then they'll be some doubt, but it can't be an excuse. Cards are in fine position right now to take care of business without worrying about what Rogers did. And if they don't, it can't be blamed on what Rogers did.

So, my feelings are that he cheated and it affected the game. Each game is huge, but one game does not make a series.

My biggest complaints are gonna stem from him getting away with it for what it does to the integrity of the game and not for what it does to the series.

Sure cheating may occur often, but when that cheating is caught it has to be dealt with or the integrity just isn't there.

[Roger Clemente]

There was no direct evidence of pine tar, hence why the umpires didn't inspect his hand. All that existed was a dirty hand.

I again bring up the Brendan Donnelly suspension. Frank Robinson demanded that Donnelly's glove be inspected. La Russa did nothing.

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

The difference between here and Tavarez is that there was no in-game action taken, so you cannot retroactively discipline him for something that can not be proven, since a couple screen captures isn't going to give you a chemical analysis of what was on his hand.

So, if nothing can be proven, then let's stop the public execution. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Besides, if it was in fact pine tar, you'd think that it would be more than obvious that he was trying to remove it in the dugout, because pine tar would take quite a bit of effort to remove.

LMU, c'mon...that's not dirt or mud. Dirt and mud doesn't look like that.

I'm pretty sure it can. Can you prove that it can't ever look like that?

It could be just some random infield mud or pitcher's mound mud.

It could be his "good luck mud" that he puts on his hand for luck before everygame.

It could be tobacco spit (which does look quite a lot like that).

It could be some foreign clay.

It could be iodine he's using to treat a cut on his hand in that area that no one knows about.

Heaven forbid, it could be feces.

It's La Russa's fault and all La Russa's fault for not pressing an inspection that could lead to an ejection. The mere fact that you are saying something can NOT be something it can and calling him a pure cheater without any definitive evidence (and those pictures and clips are NOT definitive evidence, no matter what you may want to think) shows that you are a blind homer.

Innocent till proven guilty. There is currently no definite proof. Ergo, he is not guilty. Case closed. Thanks for playing.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

[FiddySicks]

Heaven forbid, it could be feces.

Yeah, maybe before every game he drops a fat load and wipes using his hand for luck. Its the Kenny Rogers Lucky Stink Ball!!!

[FiddySicks]

..

[LMU]

There was no direct evidence of pine tar, hence why the umpires didn't inspect his hand. All that existed was a dirty hand.

I again bring up the Brendan Donnelly suspension. Frank Robinson demanded that Donnelly's glove be inspected. La Russa did nothing.

And just having a dirty patch on a hand is not enough evidence. If the substance is in fact dirt, than what, you're going to suspend him for rubbing dirt on the ball?

The difference between here and Tavarez is that there was no in-game action taken, so you cannot retroactively discipline him for something that can not be proven, since a couple screen captures isn't going to give you a chemical analysis of what was on his hand.

So, if nothing can be proven, then let's stop the public execution. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Besides, if it was in fact pine tar, you'd think that it would be more than obvious that he was trying to remove it in the dugout, because pine tar would take quite a bit of effort to remove.

LMU, c'mon...that's not dirt or mud. Dirt and mud doesn't look like that.

I'm pretty sure it can. Can you prove that it can't ever look like that?

It could be just some random infield mud or pitcher's mound mud.

It could be his "good luck mud" that he puts on his hand for luck before everygame.

It could be tobacco spit (which does look quite a lot like that).

It could be some foreign clay.

It could be iodine he's using to treat a cut on his hand in that area that no one knows about.

Heaven forbid, it could be feces.

It's La Russa's fault and all La Russa's fault for not pressing an inspection that could lead to an ejection. The mere fact that you are saying something can NOT be something it can and calling him a pure cheater without any definitive evidence (and those pictures and clips are NOT definitive evidence, no matter what you may want to think) shows that you are a blind homer.

Innocent till proven guilty. There is currently no definite proof. Ergo, he is not guilty. Case closed. Thanks for playing.

--Roger "Time?" Clemente.

Well put, sir.

And, I happen to know about what dirt looks like, as I am right now taking a class on Soil Mechanics, and from lab work, I can assure you that some kinds of dirt, especially that found in a pitcher's mound, can have a yellowish tint to it.

[NJTank]

Ahh is great that we all have something to talk about on the travel day, seriously pitchers cheat hitters cheat, everyone cheats if you dont get cuagh you dont get caught and you have to get him next game.

[ProvidenceRI]

///It rained in Detroit for most of the day leading up to the game.

The field was definetly wet.

Didn't you see Granderson slide some 15 feet on the grass?

///

Sorry I should have been more clear.

The mound was probably dry. They always cover the mound and infield, hence why people were sliding on the grass. The mound was not muddy, if it was the picture would slip.

I can't believe people won't admit that this guy is a cheat. I don't know how much pine tar improves your control, but baseball rules are pretty specific.

I remember when Clemens intentionally threw the bat at Piazza, that was worse.

Maybe it's just me, I'd rather lose than cheat.

[jkrdevil]

He cheated and the cameras caught him. Don't try to tell me it's dirt it's not; it's pine tar. It's been on his hand for 3 games in row in the same spot, plus it doesn't even look like dirt.

Let's not forget that this is a 41-year-old pitcher who coming into this postseason was statistically going by ERA the worst post-season pitcher in the history of baseball. Now he suddenly does something that only Christy Mathewson, a hall a famer who pitched in the dead ball era, does. I find that highly suspicious.

My guess is in the last year or two as he gotten older he picked up the pine tar trick and many older pitchers pick up tricks like this as they get old. He may have used it off an on. This last game of the year he comes in relief without it and gets bombed by the Royals. Seeing that this postseason is probably the last chance to redeem his career he goes to the pine tar for the playoffs. If he had a bad postseason this year he's remembered as the guy who gave up 6 runs against the Braves in the World Series and needed Jim Leyritz to bail him out, the guy who walked in the series winning run in the 99 NLCS, and the guy who putched a camera man. So he goes to the pine tar for a better grip and better control, something that he hasn't had in big games. It worked and thus he stayed with it.

However the person if you are a Cardinals fan you blame for last night is Tony LaRussa. You are the manager of a team in the World Series; there is no room to play nice. Your players come to you and saying there is something wrong with the ball and the pitcher has stuff on his hands you have to go out immediately and have the umpires check him. He gets tossed and you mess up their bullpen for the series giving you an advantage. Instead he said nothing and when Rogers went back to the dugout a teammate let him know and he went to wipe it off. By the time LaRussa finally went out Rogers got rid off his hands (Although I think he ended up putting it somewhere else whether in is glove or on his cap later). The umps don't catch him and he gets away with it. LaRussa f'ed up.

That said there is no way MLB should allow Rogers to take the mound in game 6 if it gets that far. The video evidence is too over whelming. First the shot of the stuff along with it in the past, then you have the teammate letting him know and the fact he wiped it off. Plus when he left the game he immediately went to Leyland to make sure their stories were straight. It would be no different than the when the NFL fines a player for a hit that didn't get a penalty during the game. Right now baseball as usual is scared by this and is trying to pass off the dirt thing. By during this they are only making the problem worse.

He's a cheater plain and simple. He had motive the there is plenty of evidence that he did it. And for the record I'm actually rooting for the Tigers to win the Series.