2009 MLB Season Thread

[HedleyLamarr]

Yes, Jeter is overrated. He is not currently and never was one of the better fielding shortstops at any point in his career. I don't need sabermetrics to tell me that either. However, Jeter is eventually going to be a Hall of Famer, and he's gonna deserve it, too. Baseball, more than any other sport is about numbers. Look at his hits, post-season numbers, rings, etc. But baseball is also about legend and mystique. Dude has 'em. Hate all you want, but he does. He plays hard, he wins, he's quiet, he's a leader, and he bangs some of the hottest women you've heard of. All the while, you don't hear much negative junk off the field. He's not a saint by any means, but he's like the white knight of baseball.

--------

The Yankee hit record thing is meaningful. I know people love to hate the Yankees and we all love the "if he played in Kansas City or Pittsburgh..." argument, but he doesn't, never did, and probably never will. Plus, hate all you want, but the Yankees matter more than the Royals and Pirates. The Royal and Pirate all-time record books don't look like the Yankee record books. Just look at the history. Look at the giants of the game that spent all or significant portions of their careers in pinstripes. Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, and so on. Yeah, the Royals and Pirates can totally match that, huh? The New York Yankees are the all-time greatest team in American professional sports. Period. Whether you love them (which I sure as hell don't) or hate them (close ). That Derek Jeter has managed to do something, anything to top those legends and stand atop those Yankee legends means something.

I agree with everything you've said. Those are my exact feelings on Jeter. He's definitely overrated in New York, but he's still a great player and would still probably be a Hall of Famer in Kansas City or Pittsburgh. Also the Yankees hit record is a pretty big deal. Leading the most recognizable sports franchise in America, and maybe even the world, in hits is a pretty big deal even if its only good for 53rd all time. As an Orioles fan, I hate the Yankees as much as everyone else. But I do like to try to take things objectively and give credit where credit is due.

I find it a little suprising that no life-long Yankee has ever had 3,000 hits.

[infrared41]

I find it a little suprising that no life-long Yankee has ever had 3,000 hits.

Same here. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle. Not a 3,000 hit club member among them. I guess they just weren't as good as people (Yankee haters) thought they were.

(Yes I am fully aware that Ruth did not play his entire career with the Yankees but it's still pretty surprising that he didn't have 3,000 hits.)

[cmm]

I find it a little suprising that no life-long Yankee has ever had 3,000 hits.

Same here. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle. Not a 3,000 hit club member among them. I guess they just weren't as good as people (Yankee haters) thought they were.

(Yes I am fully aware that Ruth did not play his entire career with the Yankees but it's still pretty surprising that he didn't have 3,000 hits.)

It is surprising that the Yankees never had a 3,000 hit guy. But with Ruth, you have to remember that he lost a few hundred ABs since he was a pitcher his first few years and since he walked a ton--over 2,000 times. Barry Bonds had the same problem. Just shy of 3,000 hits but over 2,000 walks. Still pretty darn impressive.

[gingerbreadmann]

I'll agree with Sabermetrics being questionable. It's a system devised by someone based on what they think is good and bad.

First off, it's not a singular system devised by a singular person. Nearly every sabermetrician, good or bad, is one because he or she is first and foremost a baseball fan, and researches baseball and shares it with others (and does it for free) because he or she loves the game and wants to find out, as put by Joe Posnanski, what is really happening in baseball. It is a world based on unbiased, unequivocal truths. There is analysis and evaluation from there, but that is the core of sabermetrics. And what do you call the MVP race, then? An award decided by some people based on what they know is good and bad? This statement doesn't make sense. Subjectivity and individualism are unavoidable in any circumstance and if anything, sabermetrics seeks to remove those elements as much as possible.

Players like Derek Jeter aren't Hall of Famers because of someone's opinion, they are Hall of Famers because they get the job done in the clutch over a period of years.

So are you saying that it isn't your opinion that he is clutch? It is a known fact? This is not an uncommon statement and sabermetric analysis simply investigates these claims to see how much truth there really is to them. Sometimes the results don't always match up, however no one says that because of some number analysis that Jeter can't hit in the clutch, and he has many times. It just (generally, there isn't even a total agreed conclusion) says that clutch is much more of a vague and non-concrete concept than we would believe and it tends to have a lot of variance from year-to-year.

Derek Jeter is a ball player, not a stat machine. He's not about stats nor ever will be. He plays the game to win and Sabermetrics will never be able to gauge desire, heart, mental toughness, or just plain game intelligence. How many times do you see a manager change pitchers because the numbers tell him to.

I wish I could frame this. I don't know how many times these unmeasurable, unsupportable superlatives can be said about certain players, none more so than Captain Intangibles himself. It's the classic cliche-ridden speech about why David Eckstein is a good player. (grit! heart! determination!) You should hang out with Murray Chass.

Numbers in baseball are only part of the solution, the instinct and knowledge of the game and players is something you can't measure in absolute numbers and that is where Sabermetrics will always fall short.

There's your ultimatum. I get that these characteristics are inherently unmeasurable, but then the question is raised of whether they actually exist. How can you be so sure of these things? They are fun to talk about, but at the end of the day they are only unbacked accusations or empty compliments. Much of sabermetrics is trying to quantify these traits and test or measure them, and it is a never-ending investigation. There are some who take one look at WAR and say that this guy is the best and you're wrong because this stat says so, and that is what stubborn journalists such as Ken Rosenthal deem all who support sabermetrics, as if they were a unified truth of some sort. (And then they descend to using the "bloggers in their parents' basements" insult in a desperate act of unnecessary defense; almost every single time) There are people of that sort who exist, but the truth is that the respected sabermetricians meticulously question each new or existing metric or theory, and who know their limitations and are always quick to point them out. (They all have them) They hold every claim, sabermetiric or not, to a high standard and are open to all opinions but require evidence to back them up in order to respect them as any sort of correct. This is often perceived as condescension in the mainstream but it is really just good practice. These are the people who are leading the way in research, and they would be the first to tell you that there is no reason why sabermetrics can't co-exist with the old-school, the traditionalists, or however you want to refer to to the "other side," because sabermetrics in no way exists only to condescend or neglect subjective opinions and judgments; they only seek to find, no matter what it entails, the very word that explains their existence in conjunction with the stereotypical sabermetrician: truth. They'd also be the first to tell you that they will never fully get there.

[infrared41]

I find it a little suprising that no life-long Yankee has ever had 3,000 hits.

Same here. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle. Not a 3,000 hit club member among them. I guess they just weren't as good as people (Yankee haters) thought they were.

(Yes I am fully aware that Ruth did not play his entire career with the Yankees but it's still pretty surprising that he didn't have 3,000 hits.)

It is surprising that the Yankees never had a 3,000 hit guy. But with Ruth, you have to remember that he lost a few hundred ABs since he was a pitcher his first few years and since he walked a ton--over 2,000 times. Barry Bonds had the same problem. Just shy of 3,000 hits but over 2,000 walks. Still pretty darn impressive.

Bonds also lost a few hundred ABs because he started his career as a pitcher? And I was kidding when I said these guys weren't as impressive as we thought.

[JayJaxon]

Ok Soriano...a 6 run lead in the 9th SHOULD be safe, but leave it up to you to scare the hell out of me!

[BBTV]

My god, how many more injuries can the Phillies pitching take? Park, Eyre, Romero, Condry, Happ, and Pedro all either down or iffy. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few too. Not a good time of the year for guys to be missing time.

[rams80]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

[MDC]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

He deserves it. the guy is a ticking time bomb wherever he goes.

"It's just not a positive environment. I need a stable, healthy, enjoyable environment. ... It's just negativity."

Really? Thats why? It has nothing to do with the fact that you cant hit the damn ball??? Really? Theres a reason you cant stay on a team for more than a season, buy a damn mirror

[oddball]

Yet, what people refuse (Cubs fans and the organization) is that what Milton says is true. If they keep bringing in losers, they will always be losers. Look at the Cubs roster, who there really scares you? No one. Don't be so hard on Milton when he speaks the truth about the Cubs organization. It's a losing organization, with a losing mentality that comes from both the fans and those who run the organization.

[zmspartans]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

on the subject of bradley, his year seems to have been the reverse of what happens to most players . normally a player's stats will improve as he moves from the al to the nl because of worse pitching or hitting . but bradley's stats have gotten worse as he has moved from the al to the nl . the only reason i can think of this would be is because of old age . but im sore there are better reasons, or simply he just cant hit anymore .

[rams80]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

He deserves it. the guy is a ticking time bomb wherever he goes.

"It's just not a positive environment. I need a stable, healthy, enjoyable environment. ... It's just negativity."

Really? Thats why? It has nothing to do with the fact that you cant hit the damn ball??? Really? Theres a reason you cant stay on a team for more than a season, buy a damn mirror

That negativity is there, though. With Cubs fans, it always seems like they are expecting defeat and disaster to come and are mentally bracing for it. The moment one thing goes wrong, the sky starts falling and it's "wait till next year". Note what has happened in recent playoff runs. Folks in Wrigley thought that the team with the best record in the NL was boned midway through the first game against the Dodgers.

[NJTank]

Bradley is writing a one way ticket out of baseball, soon nobody will be giving to give him a chance any more.

[MDC]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

He deserves it. the guy is a ticking time bomb wherever he goes.

"It's just not a positive environment. I need a stable, healthy, enjoyable environment. ... It's just negativity."

Really? Thats why? It has nothing to do with the fact that you cant hit the damn ball??? Really? Theres a reason you cant stay on a team for more than a season, buy a damn mirror

That negativity is there, though. With Cubs fans, it always seems like they are expecting defeat and disaster to come and are mentally bracing for it. The moment one thing goes wrong, the sky starts falling and it's "wait till next year". Note what has happened in recent playoff runs. Folks in Wrigley thought that the team with the best record in the NL was boned midway through the first game against the Dodgers.

Of course the negativity is there. Coming off a season like he had last year, what else should we expect? "Alright we brought this guy in from Texas. He hit over .300 last year, he was on fire. Hopefully, he'll come in this season and produce sub-par numbers the entire season. If we get lucky he will be a selfish assface too."

[HedleyLamarr]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

on the subject of bradley, his year seems to have been the reverse of what happens to most players . normally a player's stats will improve as he moves from the al to the nl because of worse pitching or hitting . but bradley's stats have gotten worse as he has moved from the al to the nl . the only reason i can think of this would be is because of old age . but im sore there are better reasons, or simply he just cant hit anymore .

Bradley's stats got worse because he had to be on the field this season. He flourished in Texas because he was just a DH.

[Cujo]

Milton Bradley suspended for speaking the truth and defeatism.

Either love 'em or leave 'em, Milton. Now get the out!

[BBTV]

My god, how many more injuries can the Phillies pitching take? Park, Eyre, Romero, Condry, Happ, and Pedro all either down or iffy. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few too. Not a good time of the year for guys to be missing time.

Myers down now too. This is going from bad to worse. Short of their starters (and they don't even have a 4th starter for the playoffs now!) all throwing CGs, I'm not sure how this team can win even a round this year.

[DarkJourney]

Astros fire manager Cecil Cooper with 13 games left

[Brass]

Something to add to the Jeter debate and this coming from a Sox fan:

I wish Derek Jeter was a Boston Red Sox. Love the guy. Love his attitude, approach to the game and how he plays it. I've never booed him and never will (unless there's the odd chance he took 'roids). If there's anyone on the Yankee team I'm afraid of most, it's Jeter. Whether it's fielding or hitting, he has a knack for making the big play at the most important part of the ballgame.

[Jigga]

Astros fire manager Cecil Cooper with 13 games left

That'll show everyone in Astro Nation that they mean business!!!

Couldn't they have waited two weeks? Seriously. Like it's gonna make that much damn difference.