Back In The Game?

[IceCap]

Really, arguing against a second NHL team in southern Ontario today would be like arguing against a second MLB team in NY in 1962.

Before you criticize Rams for an "ignorant comment" please look at the above. There is absolutly no parallel or level of commonality between the arguments you describe above. New York was once a three baseball team town until end of the 1957 season when the Dodgers and Giants moved to California. There was a gap of four seasons where there was no National League team in New York until the Mets came in in 1962. When was the last time there was two NHL teams in the GTA? New York had a long history in the National League and a large number of fans who once the Dodgers and Giants left dropped baseball alltogether. These people would not bring themselves to root for the hated Yankees. I do not see how the arguments are the same.

LULZ.

Don't criticize me for making ignorant comments and then go on and say that the GTA and southern Ontario are the same thing. They are most definitely not. Southern Ontario is a region that roughly extends from Windsor up to Kingston. The GTA is the city of Toronto and the surrounding communities. They are two very distinct entities, with the GTA being just a collection of a few communities within the larger region of southern Ontario.

I'm not in favour of a second team in the GTA, I'm in favour of a second team in southern Ontario, located in Hamilton. Hamilton is not part of the GTA by any stretch of the imagination.

So how exactly am I not suppose to call ignorance when the people arguing against a team in Hamilton don't even seem to have a basic knowledge of the area that's up for discussion?

As for your point about baseball and NYC, my point is simple. The city of NY had more baseball fans and a variety of baseball traditions then the NY Yankees were able and willing to cater to. Therefore it was a very smart decision to stick a second team in the same general area, as they would tap into that large baseball fanbase that was completley tied to the Yankees.

Same thing in southern Ontario really. You have a large region that for the most part is nominally Leafs territory. Yet there are way more hockey fans in the region then the Leafs are willing or able to cater to. In fact there's a pretty solid contingent of Leafs haters. So you have this huge market that's not being catered to by the area's only team. Sounds like a great place to put a second team to me. It's a sure fire way to capitalize on a market that's largely untapped. Just like MLB and NY in 1962.

[-kj]

"Southern Ontario," as defined by that link, is a pretty wide, nebulous area that includes the GTA, Ottawa, and many other disparate areas. It's not really one single area, as evidenced by the Canadian Census's decision to divide it into multiple Census Metropolitan Areas (CMAs). There's certainly not a fair comparison there to New York City, an incredibly dense city with an immense population.

There's also no real division amongst that wide a swath. Sure, there are Leaf lovers and others. Those others are not exactly a cohesive group with a single polarizing factor dividing them from Leaf supporters: they're usually supporters of other teams, such as the Habs, and aren't very likely to change allegiances to another Ontario team just because one is placed there.

In New York, you have the boroughs. Large populations in a small area, divided into sectors. The Yankees were in the Bronx, Brooklyn had the Dodgers in their day, and the Giants played in Manhattan. Even after the latter two disappeared, a good portion of the Mets' success is based on the geographically-divisive nature of the Mets' existence: they were placed in Queens, decidedly not the Bronx.

In Montreal, the reason the Canadiens caught on so well back in the two-team days of the league was that they were the team of Francophone Montreal. I'm sure I don't have to go into detail on the cultural divide that allowed that to thrive.

Being "not the Leafs" is not going to be enough to get someone from Oshawa to drive to Hamilton for forty-one games a year. Nor is it going to entice corporate business from Windsor or the Niagara area, both of which are very close to existing long-standing NHL franchises, albeit it in the States.

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

I'm not going to make the argument of what the NHL should do with the franchise; I'm not sure that continuing the fight in Phoenix is the right thing, nor am I certain that it would make sense to relocate it to Hamilton or elsewhere in Ontario. But, I do have two arguments to make with introducing this data:

1. Your argument for why you believe placing a franchise in "Southern Ontario" is a no-brainer is not factually valid. There may well be some benefit to placing a team there; but the argument you make about it being a single galvanized area is demonstratively false.

2. In today's modern era of big-time sports, population base, hand-in-hand with corporate base, means a lot. Finding a foothold in a market of four-plus-million people is potentially very lucrative; there is a much higher potential for financial success. In a significantly smaller market, the ceiling is much lower. There is no doubt as to why large markets such as Phoenix are enticing to any league.

(All errors and typos mine. Your mileage may vary. Not responsible for confusion or crossed eyes. Not for use without a prescription. Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.)

[The_Admiral]

Good post, Mockba. A lot to take in there.

The whole "Southern Ontario" thing never held water with me either. That's like saying you're going to put a hockey team in "the Midwest." There's something to be said for the potential of the Phoenix market, but at this point, I feel like selling hockey in Phoenix is building bricks without straw (or igloos without snow, as the case may be). 4 million is a big number at first, but once you start slicing and dicing away at it, I don't believe there's enough there to be a #4 team in a region that doesn't really do pro sports.

[BrySmalls]

In lieu of the support the NHL is receiving from the NBA/NFL/MLB about the Coyotes, what does this mean for the structure of sports franchises?

[Lee.]

If I were any kind of judge, I'd take what any of those leagues has to say regarding franchise movement or stability with a grain of salt.

The NFL allows franchises to move in the middle of the night, MLB dragged their feet on the Montreal issue for far too long, and the NBA...well, how's that move to Memphis coming along, blokes?

[CC97]

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

The CMA, MSA figures really don't mean much unless their numbers are all being compared within a similarly sized radius... The Hamilton CMA is 692,911 but that's obviously ignoring the 3 million person juggernaut a 40 minute drive up the road... that's like saying Anaheim - 35 minutes from LA - only has 350,000 people. (I doubt that's their MSA/CSA figure but only one I could find quickly)

[dfwabel]

The judge will not rule on the key issues involved on the case this afternoon.

NHL lawyer Tony Clark was reported to get a rough ride from judge. Clark called the proxy document "clear" while Judge Baum said, "I take issue with that."

[rams80]

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

The CMA, MSA figures really don't mean much unless their numbers are all being compared within a similarly sized radius... The Hamilton CMA is 692,911 but that's obviously ignoring the 3 million person juggernaut a 40 minute drive up the road... that's like saying Anaheim - 35 minutes from LA - only has 350,000 people. (I doubt that's their MSA/CSA figure but only one I could find quickly)

Well that raises a question then...is Hamilton part of the juggernaut or is it not? Icecap seems to think it's not, others such as me do.

[IceCap]

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

The CMA, MSA figures really don't mean much unless their numbers are all being compared within a similarly sized radius... The Hamilton CMA is 692,911 but that's obviously ignoring the 3 million person juggernaut a 40 minute drive up the road... that's like saying Anaheim - 35 minutes from LA - only has 350,000 people. (I doubt that's their MSA/CSA figure but only one I could find quickly)

Well that raises a question then...is Hamilton part of the juggernaut or is it not? Icecap seems to think it's not, others such as me do.

It isn't, but it will draw fans from that juggernaut who's absence won't be missed by the Leafs.

The whole "Southern Ontario" thing never held water with me either. That's like saying you're going to put a hockey team in "the Midwest."

Not really, but ok. Most of southern Ontario is pretty compact.

There's something to be said for the potential of the Phoenix market, but at this point, I feel like selling hockey in Phoenix is building bricks without straw (or igloos without snow, as the case may be). 4 million is a big number at first, but once you start slicing and dicing away at it, I don't believe there's enough there to be a #4 team in a region that doesn't really do pro sports.

Phoenix in 1996 deserved a team. Thirteen years later, not a single money making year a team on the verge of bankruptcy. Time to move. Hamilton would be my choice, but really, KC would work just as well. Just get the team out of Phoenix.

[rams80]

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

The CMA, MSA figures really don't mean much unless their numbers are all being compared within a similarly sized radius... The Hamilton CMA is 692,911 but that's obviously ignoring the 3 million person juggernaut a 40 minute drive up the road... that's like saying Anaheim - 35 minutes from LA - only has 350,000 people. (I doubt that's their MSA/CSA figure but only one I could find quickly)

Well that raises a question then...is Hamilton part of the juggernaut or is it not? Icecap seems to think it's not, others such as me do.

It isn't, but it will draw fans from that juggernaut who's absence won't be missed by the Leafs.

If its close enough to routinely do that, it's part of the juggernaut.

[dfwabel]

Judge orders NHL, team to mediation on control issue and report back by May 27.

[rams80]

Judge orders NHL, team to mediation on control issue and report back by May 27.

Joy. Can I buy that mediator a drink now? They'll need it.

[TFoA]

So what the hell does that mean? Pardon my ignorance.

[IceCap]

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

The CMA, MSA figures really don't mean much unless their numbers are all being compared within a similarly sized radius... The Hamilton CMA is 692,911 but that's obviously ignoring the 3 million person juggernaut a 40 minute drive up the road... that's like saying Anaheim - 35 minutes from LA - only has 350,000 people. (I doubt that's their MSA/CSA figure but only one I could find quickly)

Well that raises a question then...is Hamilton part of the juggernaut or is it not? Icecap seems to think it's not, others such as me do.

It isn't, but it will draw fans from that juggernaut who's absence won't be missed by the Leafs.

If its close enough to routinely do that, it's part of the juggernaut.

No, not at all. For the last time. Hamilton. Is. Not. Part. Of. The. Greater. Toronto. Area.

It's sort of like, to paraphrase a favourite movie of mine, a geographical anomaly. Far enough that's not part of the metro area, yet close to enough draw regularly from it.

[IceCap]

"Southern Ontario," as defined by that link, is a pretty wide, nebulous area that includes the GTA, Ottawa, and many other disparate areas. It's not really one single area, as evidenced by the Canadian Census's decision to divide it into multiple Census Metropolitan Areas (CMAs). There's certainly not a fair comparison there to New York City, an incredibly dense city with an immense population.

Total population isn't really what I'm looking at. I'm looking at the number of hockey fans, which in Canada is pretty much everyone who's a sports fan. As Chris pointed out the CMAs are misleading because they simply speak to a metro area's population alone, and not much else.

Hamilton, for instance, isn't part of the GTA. Yet it will draw fans from the GTA if given a team. The added bonus is that the GTA alone has enough hockey fans needed to sell out CC on a nightly basis, fans that the Leafs won't miss when it comes to ticket sales.

There's also no real division amongst that wide a swath. Sure, there are Leaf lovers and others. Those others are not exactly a cohesive group with a single polarizing factor dividing them from Leaf supporters: they're usually supporters of other teams, such as the Habs, and aren't very likely to change allegiances to another Ontario team just because one is placed there.

Your hypothetical fan from Oshawa may already make the drive to Buffalo to see Sabres games, and would probably be willing to head into Toronto for forty plus home games a year if he could obtain Leafs tickets. Driving to Hamilton for games isn't that much of a stretch. The bulk of the Hamilton team's sales would be fans from the GTA who the Leafs wouldn't miss. Really, the only ones out are the Sabres, and really, outside of the Niagara area southern Ontario hockey fans aren't theirs to draw.

In New York, you have the boroughs. Large populations in a small area, divided into sectors. The Yankees were in the Bronx, Brooklyn had the Dodgers in their day, and the Giants played in Manhattan. Even after the latter two disappeared, a good portion of the Mets' success is based on the geographically-divisive nature of the Mets' existence: they were placed in Queens, decidedly not the Bronx.

Point being? There are no real geographical divides but there is a strong anti-Leafs contingent who would indeed support a Hamilton team, if for no other reason then spite. Again, you're assuming that because there are no geographical divides when it comes to sports loyalties fans won't be willing to make the trip. Again, you overlook the fact that many are either making a much longer trip to Buffalo already, or would be willing to make the trip to Toronto to see the Leafs if they could. Driving to Hamilton isn't that much of stretch after that.

In Montreal, the reason the Canadiens caught on so well back in the two-team days of the league was that they were the team of Francophone Montreal. I'm sure I don't have to go into detail on the cultural divide that allowed that to thrive.

Good for the Habs

Being "not the Leafs" is not going to be enough to get someone from Oshawa to drive to Hamilton for forty-one games a year. Nor is it going to entice corporate business from Windsor or the Niagara area, both of which are very close to existing long-standing NHL franchises, albeit it in the States.

No one's expecting the Windsor and Niagara corporate connections to abandon the Wings and Sabres. Niagara, I've admitted, is firmly in the Sabres' camp.

The corporate element does exist in southern Ontario, however, to make a team in Hamilton viable. As for John Doe, Oshawa hockey fan, I've already addressed that.

So, if Southern Ontario is not truly a cohesive region, then you have to start looking at the CMAs on their own merit. Since you're not talking about placing a new team in the GTA, I'll throw that out. I'll also throw out the Ottawa area. Therefore, Hamilton is the largest CMA without a current NHL franchise at 692,911 (2006 Census).

Comparing that to current teams (based on 2008 US Census Bureau estimates), the Raleigh-Cary NC Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is 1,088,765; that is the smallest MSA in the league. Using the 2007 Raleigh-Durham-Cary Combined Statistical Area (CSA), that number becomes 1,635,754. Now, I'm not an expert in these numbers, so I'm not sure whether either the MSA or CSA is a similar enough statistic to the Canadian CMA to make a fair comparison, but what I'm seeing is a significantly larger population base in a similar geographic area. (I should point out that the Canes' CSA is not the smallest; that appears to be Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus NY, 1,208,270. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is larger than Raleigh-Cary, however.)

To compare to the current location, the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ MSA is 4,281,899. There is no CSA; on the CSA table, the MSA in question stands alone as the thirteenth largest in the US.

Also, to compare to other non-Ontario Canadian markets that have been touted as locations that should be looked at for NHL relocations: Quebec is 715,515, while Winnipeg is 694,668; both are larger than Hamilton, though not significantly.

All very true, but again, you're looking at the CMAs as if they're their own isolated markets. That's not the case at all. Fans who can't get Leafs tickets from the GTA will fill out the bulk of a Hamilton team's sales, while there will be enough spillover from across the region to make up the rest.

You're real problem with this argument is the assumption that Hamilton really is just a tad smaller then Winnipeg and QC as a market. It really isn't, because a team there WILL draw in fans from across the region, specifically from the GTA.

See, to reiterate my answer to rams' question, it's both. Hamilton is both separate from the GTA, yet in just the right position to successfully draw fans from it.

I'm not going to make the argument of what the NHL should do with the franchise; I'm not sure that continuing the fight in Phoenix is the right thing, nor am I certain that it would make sense to relocate it to Hamilton or elsewhere in Ontario. But, I do have two arguments to make with introducing this data:

The amusing thing here is that you assume I'm Hamilton or bust. While I will say without a doubt the NHL keeping the Coyotes in Phoenix is a mistake, I just want to see the team survive. Hockey's already in a delicate position in the States, and like it or not, without American ticket sales and viewers, the NHL is done for (though Canada's six teams making up 60% of the NHL's revenue is very impressive).

So the NHL can keep them in Phoenix if they want to, and watch them go under within a decade, which would cause irreparable damage to the NHL's image in the States. Or they can move the team somewhere where they'll have a fresh start and fans excited about NHL hockey.

I make no secret about Hamilton being my top choice for that relocation, for both personal reasons and because I feel it really does provide the best chance at that fresh start and fan enthusiasm.

KC, however, a lot going for it as well. If the NHL absolutely refuses to see a seventh team in Canada I say ship 'em to KC. Just do what needs to be done to keep the team alive. For whatever reason or cause they can't do that in Arizona.

1. Your argument for why you believe placing a franchise in "Southern Ontario" is a no-brainer is not factually valid. There may well be some benefit to placing a team there; but the argument you make about it being a single galvanized area is demonstratively false.

It's only demonstratively false when you treat the CMAs as their own isolated markets with zero spillover (there's a lot of spillover in southern Ontario, trust me) and when you ignore the fact that many of the fans you say won't drive to Hamilton are either already driving to Buffalo or would be willing to drive to Toronto if tickets were made available.

Both your assumptions are incorrect.

2. In today's modern era of big-time sports, population base, hand-in-hand with corporate base, means a lot. Finding a foothold in a market of four-plus-million people is potentially very lucrative; there is a much higher potential for financial success. In a significantly smaller market, the ceiling is much lower. There is no doubt as to why large markets such as Phoenix are enticing to any league.

Again, Phoenix in 1996 was deserving of a team. It was a gamble worth taking. Thirteen years later, and well that gamble didn't pay off. So move them somewhere that does have the potential to support them.

[dfwabel]

So what the hell does that mean? Pardon my ignorance.

The judge was only going to rule on the bankruptcy and how creditors are to be repaid, not on what is in the best interest of hockey or its fans. There are about 600 pages of documents which the judge also needs to review as well.

Coyotes and NHL Ordered to Mediation

[CC97]

This gives a better idea at why comparing Hamilton's CMA population to Quebec City or Winnipeg just doesn't work... attached is a screen cap of Pop Density for Hamilton, Quebec, Winnipeg and 3 other Canadian NHL cities to give you an idea just how much more populated the region is compared to that of other Canadian markets.

Data is from the 2001 Canadian Census

[rams80]

In other news, since we're still ongoing in Phoenix, the NHL flat out asked the judge to rule on the relocation issue.

EDIT-and the judge apparently punted or whatever other metaphor you want to use for "decided he needs to read through a myriad of legal decisions word for word before deciding whether or not St. Balsillie's efforts to circumvent the NHL constitution vis a vis relocation is kosher."

[The_Admiral]

deciding whether or not St. Balsillie's efforts to circumvent the NHL constitution vis a vis relocation

Geez, don't tip your hand or anything.

[rams80]

deciding whether or not St. Balsillie's efforts to circumvent the NHL constitution vis a vis relocation

Geez, don't tip your hand or anything.

Just giving him the title his own public relations seems bent on giving him.

Well....that and future God Emperor of Canada seemed a little much.